This past weekend: Gaslighting and other issues

[firepoetry]

I had a really difficult weekend. I'm going to purchase the book Raising a resilient child with a Borderline or NPD. I am hopeful that it will help me gain some strategies.

My daughter is 11yo.

My Nex has had a number of issues, common among others. Most recently he had stated he was going to go to another state and be homeless and have zoom visitation. He did not move.

He has also been on a kick to have our child engage in meditation. Our child HATES meditation, likely because he keeps pushing her to do it. One day she walked home from his house to my house because of a fight about meditation, and he didn't feed her lunch and it was approaching 3pm.

I took my child to her therapist. (He attends on occasion, but I didn't include him this past visit bc last time he didn't have any issues with our child (on the telephone bc he frequently doesn't have a car)). Our daughter voiced that she was really concerned about visitation with her father, because he threatened to take it away if she didn't do meditation. But, she is vehemently against meditation. He told me something similar. He told me that he couldn't take away her friend's visit, so he would take away his visit with her. It crushed her. It is breaking her.

She usually visits him on the weekends (no overnights, just the day Saturday / Sunday).

So, therapist talked through all the possibilities, and our daughter asked for assistance standing up to her father regarding not doing meditation, and still wanting to see him. (There were other options, but none that our child had input in and wanted to do). Meditation is a new push, just in the past six months. She has NEVER liked meditation. I tried to get her interested before, but she just wasn't interested, and I didn't push it. I did support other ways of calming down, such as listening to an audiobook / music, reading, etc.

So, I stood with her up against her father, and we engaged in an over one hour long conversation where he kept interrupting me, never really heard anything I had to say, and told me I was traumatized and projecting my issues onto our child, etc.

I finally got to the point where I confronted him on the issue of him stating our child needs to do meditation otherwise he would withhold his visit. Then he erupted in anger, changed the subject so he could think of a new lie to state. So, he said that our child had told HIM she didn't want to come over to his house if she had to do meditation, and he said that he said, no, you can't do that, but what if that was the consequence? What if you couldn't visit me? and, then she said, no, then I don't want to visit.

Then I re-confronted him, and said, but, YOU told ME that you were unable to take away her friends' visit, so you were going to take away your own visit. Then he circle talked, and I finally said, okay, so all that must have happened before, then you told me you were unable to take away her friends' visit, so you were going to take away your own visit. And, I got him to admit he said it. It doesn't MATTER to me whether our child said this or that, as the adult, he ended with the idea that he would withhold his visit if she didn't do meditation. Then he went to her and gaslit her, which was horrible.

I debriefed with her, and asked her her side of the story again, and supported her with it. She thinks that because she offered that she would do the meditation once per year, that is what it will be. But, he was very persistent that he wanted her to do it every weekend, and he probably didn't hear or take her seriously with the once per year offer.

I am totally burnt out.

I talked to my therapist today, and I'm going to talk to our daughter's therapist next time and let her know that I have issues facilitating their relationship, and even advocating for our child to the Nex, because it sucks the life out of me. And, while I feel like I need to advocate for her, it's really a lost cause, because he just wants to control her and everything else. And, her therapist knows that he is entirely incapable of compromising, empathizing, and etc. and has been supportive of our child ending or further limiting her relationship with him. (She already has done so by not seeing him during the week). But, I think that it is very hard for her to limit it more, because she loves her dad, and doesn't quite understand the magnitude of his mental health issues and complete lack of empathy, etc. She has already cut out her paternal grandparents because they were abusive. She also had a friend she stopped hanging out with and even wanted to leave school with because of similar traits. She's had a lot of loss in her life. But, all I can do is step back and be there for her when she needs me.     

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I'm so sorry this is happening, Firepoetry.  Watching our children be rejected by their other parent is incredibly painful.  I'm glad you are getting the Raising a Resilient Child with a PD book.  Her other book, Stop Caretaking the BPD/NPD, is also really valuable.

I would take heart in the fact that your child has a sense of what is reasonable to require of her and what is not.  And she is willing to stand up for herself.  These are 2 healthy abilities that many children with a PD parent are not able to acquire.  Many of us are still struggling with it as adults. 

Here's my experience trying to reason with a pwPD.  Ex:  Being blamed for something and attacked for it. "Sorry to hear that happened, but I don't know anything about it." (which does not one iota of good) followed by pointing out that I was out of town at that time, something he well knows, and therefore could not possibly have done it or even known about it. And maybe a friendly offer to help him with it or something to ease his emotional pain.

That would be fine and probably end the whole conflict if I were talking to someone who uses rational, logical thinking.  But pwPD's do not.  Their thinking is distorted and they use "emotional thinking."  Something along the lines of "I feel mad about this and I feel mad at you, so in some way this is your fault!"  Facts and logic never had any sway.  Irrefutable logic never won him over - not once that I can remember in all those years.

I learned not to spend much time trying to work with or move him.  That may not be true of everyone, but it was for us. Instead of considering what options I might have to get him to see something, I would consider what my options were in the face of him clinging to his distorted views. Those options were things I had some power over, like the tools on here. Sometimes, rarely, he would very belatedly realize that he had been mistaken, but it was never because of anything anyone said to him. It was long, long after everyone had given up on trying, if it happened at all, which it usually didn't.  That's been my experience, anyway.

Reminds me of this old saying "Never try to teach a pig to sing.  It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

[notrightinthehead]

Firepoetry, this reminds me so much of the many non-issues my NPDh would come up with. He would demand something and it would be the most important thing in the world and there would be so much conflict about it and the kids and my mind would be full of arguments and circular conversation that we could not think straight and he would once again dominate our life and everything would be exclusively about him.
Please go back to the toolbox, study medium chill, grey rock, and non Jade. Your daughter seems to think that she can change your h's mind. Tell her it would be best to accept him how he is. She can either spend time with him and meditate or not spend time with him. That's what she told you. Her choice.
Your job as a mother is not to involve yourself in a storm in a glass of water. Your job is to teach your daughter resilience when dealing with her narcissistic father. Your job is to teach her how to set boundaries. Your job is to role model healthy relationships. He is just getting back onto the roller coaster. Don't fall in the trap.

[firepoetry]

Her other book, Stop Caretaking the BPD/NPD, is also really valuable.
...
Reminds me of this old saying "Never try to teach a pig to sing.  It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

Thank you for sharing your experience. I definitely need to review the toolbox and do some significant work. I try not to engage with him at all, but when I do, I forget to use strategies. I think its because it throws me into PTSD so I can't think correctly either.

I will definitely also pick up that book, caretaking a narcissist. I tend to be a caretaker all the way around, and over the past decades have learned to say no. But with him, My Stockholm Syndrome turns on, because there is so much trauma with him, and my mind thinks it is entirely unreasonable that I have to engage with him at all, so part of me shuts down for self-preservation.

I don't really care what he thinks of me, but the problem is that it comes out in passive-aggressive acts towards me and our child. But, you are right, there is no reasoning or using logic.

[firepoetry]

Firepoetry, this reminds me so much of the many non-issues my NPDh would come up with. He would demand something and it would be the most important thing in the world and there would be so much conflict about it and the kids and my mind would be full of arguments and circular conversation that we could not think straight and he would once again dominate our life and everything would be exclusively about him.
Please go back to the toolbox, study medium chill, grey rock, and non Jade. Your daughter seems to think that she can change your h's mind. Tell her it would be best to accept him how he is. She can either spend time with him and meditate or not spend time with him. That's what she told you. Her choice.
Your job as a mother is not to involve yourself in a storm in a glass of water. Your job is to teach your daughter resilience when dealing with her narcissistic father. Your job is to teach her how to set boundaries. Your job is to role model healthy relationships. He is just getting back onto the roller coaster. Don't fall in the trap.

Yes, I absolutely can't think when he does all that crazy.

I will definitely go back to the toolbox. And, I already learned about non-Jade, I don't think that was on my radar. And, I need to review these prior to and immediately following my encounters with him, so I can get to the point where I use them consistently.

My daughter goes through both ideologies. Sometimes she thinks she can "help" him, more than change him. We talked a lot about her grandparents wanting to change him, but they couldn't. Maybe I should remind her of this. We talk a lot about how he has mental health issues (mostly at her therapy). The therapist knows him because he was coming in for her therapy sometimes, so she is WELL AWARE. He even calls himself and our child a narcissist to her therapist.

You are right. It's just a difficult situation. She does stand up to him, and she got pulled into the roller coaster as well. But, maybe there is a better way I could have handled it. It's tough, because he changed the whole story.

So, looking back, maybe it should have been a phone call instead of an in person encounter. She didn't want to tell him her decision, because, in part, I believe she's afraid of how he will respond. So, as her mother, I feel it is my duty to communicate her decision. But, I AM too wordy, and I engaged WAY TOO MUCH.

So, when looking back at this situation, I should have given him a call, and simply stated, "Child has decided she doesn't want to do meditation, and is forfeiting her visit today." And, if he started talking about it, I could have used grey rock / Jade / medium chill. It's hard for me to imagine how that would go. But, in the past conversation, he did tell me to get out of his parenting lane. And, I realized, yeah, I do need to get out of your parenting lane. You are seriously screwing it all up, and I've been facilitating the relationship for the past 11 years, and now it's time for me to walk away and let it fall down by the wayside. I should be the communicator, and that is it.

What do you do when the narcissist tries to keep us engaged in the conversation? Because that is what I expect will happen. And, then, at that point, he could possibly show up at my door. (Because, he's done that before). I suppose that would result in me calling the police if he were to not leave? My problem with that is that the police don't tend to respond to my calls. So, then my danger level shoots up. Which is why my Stockholm Syndrome turns on. Oh the cycles. But, I can try to call the police.

[notrightinthehead]

Can you not let him in if he shows up at your door?

[firepoetry]

notintherighthead~

I'm not really sure how to respond if he comes to my door, other than to answer it. He will typically say he wants to see dd. If I don't answer the door, then dd would answer it, because she doesn't want to ignore him. Even though he is entirely self-centered, she still wants to have a relationship with him. He's touch and go. Sometimes he is good to her, sometimes he is so self-centered, he doesn't care about even seeing her. But, she is often worried about him. After the election, he checked himself into a psych ward, and checked himself out a few days later. He said it was the only place he felt safe with the election results. (It really doesn't affect him like he thinks. He thought the FBI was going to kill him for months, the change in presidency doesn't affect him in reality.)

On the bright side, for pick up / drop offs, I've been staying in the car and not interacting with him. Additionally, he is entirely delusional about our relationship. He asked me to come to some political even and hang out with him on a Saturday for 6 hours. ??? I reviewed the toolbox and responded in a medium chill kind of way. "I am unavailable / that doesn't work for me." Additionally, I asked dd if she wanted to go, she doesn't, and I stated, I will keep dd with me on Saturday as she doesn't want to attend the meeting. What 11 year old wants to hang out at a political meeting for six hours? None. Then he's like, oh, well, there is childcare. Yeah, she's old enough to babysit, she doesn't want to be in childcare while you are at a six hour political meeting. Hard pass. But, I didn't respond to his last statement about the childcare.

Looking 2 be free~
I ate up that book, by the way, and I am trying to incorporate those lessons. So, I said something along the lines of, "I will keep dd, as she doesn't want to go, and that will allow you to be more present at your event." Which, is what he wants.

I do keep trying to reach out for a social worker who is skilled in domestic violence and can help me with boundaries, but it looks like there aren't any available. Most in my area either have a waitlist or are crisis and not long term assistance. I may just ask my current therapist to help me with developing those skills.

[notrightinthehead]

Your post made me smile - so he made the election result about him? Amazing!how self absorbed can one be? Well done how you dealt with the political meeting situation! You stuck to your decision and communicated it clearly.
Just remember our children tend to do what we do, not what we say, so you are role modelling healthy behaviour right now.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

It's great to hear how motivated you are to find, learn, and practice any available tools.  So gratifying!

[firepoetry]

Your post made me smile - so he made the election result about him? Amazing!how self absorbed can one be? Well done how you dealt with the political meeting situation! You stuck to your decision and communicated it clearly.
Just remember our children tend to do what we do, not what we say, so you are role modelling healthy behaviour right now.

Thank you so much!

[firepoetry]

It's great to hear how motivated you are to find, learn, and practice any available tools.  So gratifying!

Thank you so much!

[firepoetry]

So, things have been going pretty good with boundaries of late. But, there is a question that is presented that I have a hard time answering. He keeps changing, and I keep changing, but I need to be clearer.

In keeping with the issue that he doesn't take no for an answer, and no matter what I say, he wants some type of relationship with me that is beyond reality, and I don't hang out with him, call him, email him, or engage in any way other than with regards to dd. However, of late, I haven't been keeping him in the loop with appointments, because he's unable to attend, and I realize that he needs to ask about appointments if he wants to be involved, etc.

Backstory:
So, he has decided to give up his car. I agreed that I would pick up / drop off child during his days (Sat/Sun, no overnights), unless he decides to walk. (Not an easy walking distance, but not terrible.)

He keeps wanting to use me as a taxi driver. He has asked me on multiple occasions to drive child and him to someplace, or pick him / child up at some place.

My original answer was, "No, I don't want smokers in my car." (My mom died of lung cancer, and I don't have friends who smoke. I'm also allergic. Also, dd has bad reactions to the smell of smoke, and I try to limit it in my life). Nothing against people who smoke. I used to be a smoking cessation counselor. I just don't want it in my life.

So, that worked a couple of times. And, then, he took dd to a movie on Sunday and asked if I would pick them up so he didn't have to get an Uber/Lyft. I said, no. He said, well, I stopped smoking a couple of days ago. I said, no. Maybe I could pick up dd, and you could get a lyft / uber just for yourself. He said, it's the same cost, etc. I said it is really late, and I don't want to drive (it was after 11pm, and I actually don't like to do extra driving at night).

But, I'm feeling like I need to simplify my answer, because he keeps coming up with changes as to why I should give him a ride. Since he is giving up his car, this pressure isn't going away.

So, I'm trying to plan the best response, so if people could comment on anything that might be further insightful, I'd appreciate it. I think Medium Chill would be best?

No, I don't want to give you a ride. (Blah blah, I don't smoke, some other reason, I'm the reason for his poverty in making him buy an uber/lyft, some other excuse.) I would always come pick up my child, but never him. I don't want to be that physically close to him. And, so many other reasons.

1) It's simply my preference.
2) I don't want to take on the responsibility of the choices you made. (I made this one up! Is it too aggressive?)
3) My decision is made.
4) This is not a discussion

I think my instinct is to say something like,

1) "I'm working on boundaries in my therapy sessions, and this is an area I need to set a boundary... because I don't want to take on the responsibility of you because of the choices you made."

2) I need to have good boundaries, and not take on responsibility for other people.

3) I'm working on my boundaries, and I don't want to drive you because it violates my personal boundaries.

4) Poor decisions on your part does not make an emergency on my part. (I wouldn't really say this, but I love the saying!)

5) This is not my problem. If you want to make it my problem I will find a solution to this that suits me and there is every chance that it will not suit you. If you want a solution that suits you, then you need to go work on that & leave me out of it.

(Especially since he told me to stay out of his parenting lane!) When I think of a solution, it would be, I come pick up dd and leave him someplace, and not do transportation anymore. That would mean he would have to come pick up dd from my house on foot. I would still go pick her up, of course.

Thoughts?     

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Firepoetry, What you're talking about is my weak spot, too, so hopefully others will answer you.

Helpful things I've heard:   "No" is a complete sentence.  If that's too abrupt "That won't work" or the like.  What I try to avoid is giving a reason for the "no."  The reason gives the opportunity to knock the legs out from under our "no."  It's also the outcome of their believing, and my believing, that I'm not entitled to say just say no.  That without a good reason, I'm obligated to say "yes."  And that's just not the case.  We don't owe them a reason.

Personally, I'd keep any communication around this very brief, or avoid it altogether if possible, to keep him from trying to wheedle you into something.  I've done things like not answer phone calls and also not return them if I can determine from the VM it's not an emergency.  Same with texts.  Or return them much later after they've had to take care of things themselves.  Not be at anyone's beck and call.  That's not from the tools that I know of - just a way I've detached from the dependency behavior.  I feel their tentacles reaching my way and I keep backing up. He has to come up with something else if I'm not there.

Presumably he can figure out if he has enough money for RT Lyft rides before he decides to take her to the movies.  But I wouldn't explain that or anything else. I wouldn't talk about any of your thinking or what he might do or how he should or could be more autonomous or you want this or that. Don't tell him anything with regard to this stuff; show him.   Just act as if he knows how to be responsible and don't be available to caretake him.  That's what's worked for me. Discussions never have.

Again, that's not stuff I got from the tools, just my experience.  I hope others can give you much more, and correct anything I've mentioned that might be off the track.   Let us know how it's going!

[Rose1]

No.

It is a complete sentence. Or not possible is also good.

My experience was that I got manipulated into just the above because he didn't want to do it and it wasn't fair yada Yada
I learned very quickly if I caved once it would continue.

He's an adult. He can make his own transport arrangements. You're not available.

What I did do with DD once she was about 13 was get her a cheap dumb phone and instructions to call me if she ever felt unsafe, threatened etc.and permission to walk out without her stuff and phone me from a safe location (for some reason she was worried she would get in trouble if she left her stuff behind). It was more likely ex would damage her phone if he caught her phoning me.
Anyways others have said, your DD will be dealing with this for a long time. The best gift you can give her is to teach her strategies and boundaries. Teach her not to jade etc etc.

I wasn't very good at this stuff myself but I made an imperfect effort to teach my Ds and they are so much better at boundaries than I ever was