Lying to BPD SO

[zad7242]

As someone highly conflict avoidant and prone to telling white lies to protect myself and others feelings, I have placed myself into a very difficult jam with my uBPDw. I have lied to her countless times during our 3.5 year marriage. Mostly to avoid her triggers and conceal conversations I've had with friends and family members about our situation to gain practical and emotional support. Whenever I confess this to my own therapist, he encourages me to have more honest boundaries with my wife but minimizes my behavior by saying things like, "remember you are just trying to survive." He also recommends I don't volunteer info about sources of support but be honest if she asks directly.
  I'm struggling with this because my wife is very effective at getting the truth out of me or using her intuition to know when I'm lying or concealing something. This has crushed her trust in me and I'm sure majorly triggered her sense of betrayal and abandonment. But on the other hand, I've received advice to seek out support in private. I feel like it's a no win. Obviously she gets so much angier when I lie- she uses my lying as evidence that I am really the one with a PD, but she also will never support my need to have my own support system. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

[Marianne]

That is a difficult situation.

I am more on your wives side of the spectrum (c ptsd but with borderlinish traits). And my dad has done what you describe yourself doing. With similar effects on me. And our relationship. I indeed concluded he had PD. Found him extremely scary and feared bad intent. And went no contact. I know he was self protecting. But my trust was broken.  Sorry for the discouraging message.

Could it be you both have PD? And feed each others problem? Her pointing at you and you at her, and both being clumsy? Not evil. Clumsy.

Your writing also gives me insight into his side. Thank your for that. It is not easy to deal with, borderline. So I can empathise with your behaviour! I think it is not fully her and not fully you, but the combination of you both. Your post helped me look at my dad with more sympathy. 

For me honesty is extremely important. I get triggered by lying and pick it up sensitively. Because I was manipulated so much. That includes someone saying they are not angry, but secretly angry, without even being aware. Congruence is important. If the other is radically honest, I feel safe, and am stable in the relationship. 

For me...I am not your wife...but for me...sorry I am going to be real harsh...forgive me...

- Talking with family and friends behind my back was huge. I saw it as triangulation: a conscious manipulation technique. It felt like immense betrayal. By all of them. All. I broke up with all family. Them for gossiping and judging me without asking my side. And spreading bad rumours. And him to set them up against me. Which indeed was the effect. How would you feel if all your social circle discussed your every flaw behind your back, without talking to you? Confidence is important in marriage. His support network hated me because of things he said. And which often were one sided or not true. He isolated me. I lost my support, because he sought out his. I found this hard to forgive. Sorry for saying it harshly...I do not mean to hurt...but I suspect this may be how it feels to her. Which is important to know, I guess. Before deciding how to talk.

I think you should seek support elsewhere. Outside of the circle of people you both share (!). Therapist, pastor, helpline, friend you do not mutually know, peer support group.

I think this is hard to repair. But you do not want a marriage built on lies? I think if she guessed it already, confessing you have been seeking support (not the people and stories in detail), telling her it had no bad intent, but rather the intent of improving the relationship, and promising you will now only talk with therapist/pastor/social worker X or Y and keep her stuff private.

It is on her whether to forgive or not. I have a stronger sense of self now, and could forgive after confession. But I'm guessing this is huge for someone with bpd. In my situation, radical honesty, genuine regret that you truly feel and radical change would be needed to repair trust. Slowly. Very slowly. Me actually seeing proof of the change, rather than words.

And having a chance to tell them my side.

- Lies and covering stuff up does not work with bpd or cptsd. In my case I have become so sensitive to the underlying stuff people hide, even to themselves, that I sense it anyway. Even if I stay in denial. My feelings know. It just makes me feel extremely unsafe, paranoid, angry and hurt. When the other is radically honest, I do not have that. Or rarely.

I think the only real option is to tell her you have been dishonest. She already knows. Tell her your intent: that you meant to protect her and yourself and the relationship. Not to harm. Tell her the insecurities behind it, that you were scared. That you see it was wrong. And make a complete change. That you decide to be honest from now on.

For me personally...I could never be in a relationship when someone would either talk behind my back or lies. So the only way out, would be through. Otherwise it would just spiral into him lying more and me being more scared.

Opening up has a huge chance of blowing up the relationship though. It is a complicated situation.

Is there an option of seeking systems therapy? As to have these conversations together?

Does she self reflect?

For me...I see my dad lies and manipulates...but I also see my own behaviour contributed to this. My dads character AND my intense emotions and bad expression of those, both fed my dads choice to lie. And his lies also fed my emotional responses.

I think if you both see you both acted disordered...and also still see the good in the other...and see how you fed her bad side and she yours.

That would be great.

Hard for someone with PD (I explicitly have cptsd and not bpd and even I struggle). But great.

Another option I could think of, is that you radically stop all triangulation and lies. From now on. Be congruent. And after doing this for a long while (she saw proof you changed before you opened up). After this, you confess to the earlier stuff.

Sorry...this is not a hopeful message...maybe someone else has better advice.

I think you may want to talk with an experienced systems therapist. Not just you two. Or is here.

And I wanted to say you are not a bad person.

A personality disorder causes loved ones to also behave in more disordered ways. You indeed were surviving. You were. As was she. If you lie, she will be distrustful. And if she is intense, you will feel tempted to lie.

That is how it is. People do that.

I am not sure my advice is right...take advice from others.

A hopeful note: I could forgive my dad all the lies if he confessed and changed. And was honest about his feelings behind it. Someone who says they were frightened to lose you...is easier to empathise with.

So she may also.

[Marianne]

I think this especially would be my advice: tell her the feeling and intent behind what you did.

In borderline mentalisation can be weak. I have learned this better now. But still.

When someone does something scary, like lying, it helps me tremendously if they are very honest and clear about feeling and intent.

When triggered I assume the worst, I assume they want to harm. I can assume malice, where there is clumsiness or fear or even intent to protect.

If they tell me (and I feel it is true) that they felt scared and vulnerable...afraid to lose me out of love...afraid to hurt me...and afraid to be hurt...that they never learned good skills to be direct and open...And want to learn...together...

That makes it all a lot more predictable to me.

It is the blanks in intent for me to fill in with scary stuff, like imagined bad intent, that make it most difficult. If you fill in that blank, it is easier. Lots.

My imagination can be worse than your true intent, because of ptsd.

I'm guessing this may be true for a borderline spouse too.

[zad7242]

Hi Marianne,

Your thoughtful and thorough feedback is exactly what I need and very helpful! During most of my marriage I have been accused by my wife of NPD. I know I have entitled only child of an overprotective mother syndrome but I've honestly made good faith efforts to see if a NPD diagnosis is appropriate for me. My own therapist of 1.5 years and our marriage therapist say I don't have it. Granted our marriage therapist only met with us for 2 sessions before my wife blew it up and the therapist told me privately I was the victim of DV. Not trying to be defensive about a diagnosis but short of taking a personality test from a professional, I've revisited this issue with multiple mental health professionals and only come away with a mild ADHD and dysthymia diagnosis.  I even had a brain scan done at my wife's ultimatum and while it couldn't diagnosis a PD it showed the parts of my brain dealing with empathy and emotion are above average. My previous wife, who passed away after 6 years of marriage had a covert NPD mother and had an uncanny radar for PD folks and was very honest about my flaws but never came close to accusing me of a PD.

My wife is accurate with her basic evaluations of my flaws but takes it to the extreme imo.

I absolutely agree being honest is the only way to respect her and save our marriage. She feels exactly the way you describe and I dont blame her. About a month ago, I did promise her I would stop discussing how things are going with my parents, who are also a significant source of her anger. In addition, I cut off communication with her family (too late and I lied about that and admitted it to her) after she cut off her family. In exchange if you will, I asserted my right to have a support network and told my wife I will continue taking to clergy if I need to, my therapist and find a mental health support forum instead.
Maybe my current therapist is not as in tune with personality disorders as I need because he thought I was waiting too long to share my experience with friends and family and he seems to think that as long as my intentions are good and don't lie about it, I shouldn't feel guilty.
Your perspective definitely helps me realize more clearly how understandable her anger towards me is. Thank you.

[Marianne]

Hey, sorry for asking if you had PD. I rather thought of avoidant PD or dependent PD or so.

I think...if I look at myself...after a relationship with someone with severe narcissism/antisocial personality. I get terrified if someone has behaviour that "looks like narcissism but is not". For example: many people twist and turn when to cover up a mistake. Or to get their way. Or are a bit macchavellian. There are all sorts of reasons for that. A non-traumatized person may find that annoying. But for me that is huge. Terrifying. I think: "i know that! You are just like him! I have been there before! Not again! Run!" I have learned to control that. But still. Maybe that could be what she is doing? Your behaviour superficially resembles that of a much more unsafe person she met before...and she projects his personality on you?

DV is not okay. It is always hard to say who does what over the internet. Or even with 2 sessions with a therapist. But if there is truly DV: protect yourself. Could you elaborate on some examples? If you want? Are you sure this relationship is healthy? How does it make YOU feel? Could you talk with a DV specialized person or hotline?

Lying can also be a response to feeling very unsafe.

I think I remember a topic where you spoke of her saying BPD was a gift that made her sensitive. But she did not empathize with how that felt to you. I do think people with BPD are sensitive. But untreated, it is rather self-centered. If I have a wound...I am sensitive there...if someone brushes it lightly...I may automatically feel a lot of pain and scream and push them away. I am so sensitive to my own pain, that I am actually unsensitive to the other person. Not even out of malice. But because I am so overwhelmed, that there is nothing else than my own sensations for a while. I think people easily confuse this reactivity with genuine sensitivity to the other person. If I am genuinely sensitive, I see the other person, and I am caring to their sensations too. I keep my mouth shut and my hands at home...bear the pain...and tell them in a more calm way what happened. And what I'd like for them to do (keep away from my wound). That is other-centered sensitivity. Does she have that? Can she reflect on herself and empathize with you?

I also noticed your wife wanted a brain scan as to proof PD. I sounds a bit creepy. To be honest. I'm quite careful as to who I let into our life. But the thought of demanding a brain scan has not come up. 

I think you absolutely should have a support network. And I think there's a difference between speaking with your own parents and speaking with hers or even the whole circle of family and friends (as I understood it). I also think if there is DV...the situation is radically different. Telling your family about your frustrations with your partner...is different than asking for help because you are beaten or threatened. In the latter case: do not let yourself be isolated.

I do hope I was not too harsh...I wanted to show my thinking...to show what thougths come up in someone who is has trauma due to manipulation.

I think looking within to see WHY you are lying in this relationship. And if being open with her is even safe. And how she makes you feel. And if you really want this relationship. Is important. You should not lie. But she also should be able to receive normal truths without attacking. That is the other side of the coin.

At a certain point in the relationship it is hard to see if you lie because she screams at you for every little mistake..or if she screams at you because you lie. But in either case...lying and screaming is not healthy relationship behaviour. Neither is putting your empathic partner through an NPD brain scan.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Sorry I didn't read everything carefully, but I do think it's an interesting question - what is appropriate to say to whom when you need support.

Many people who are partnered with a pwPD find help in 12 step groups like CoDA or Adult Children of Alcoholic or Dysfunctional Families, either in person or on zoom.  Having a 12 step sponsor can provide a confidant with whom you can speak even more candidly. 

I chose not to divulge much to people who also had a relationship with my ex and instead use other support.  It wasn't usually an issue, but I had a boundary to not talk about or answer questions from my ex about the conversations I had with those support people.  Those discussions were mine and no one else's business.  No lies needed  because I simply didn't share that information.  Much like not feeling a need to be interrogated about what is shared with a counselor.  I guess that worked pretty well for me.

[zad7242]

I really appreciate all the feedback and I need to be challenged on my own weaknesses and sins so no offense taken at the bluntness. Only a fool surrounds himself with people who refuse to challenge their complacency.

In response to some of the thoughts I would say my biggest regret is casting too wide a net of people I talked to about our marriage. Most of them, especially her family, have independently, experienced her behavior and emotional intensity, but I shouldn't have been adding to it behind my wife's back.

My non- conflict approach does lend itself to passive-aggression and it didn't start with her, but has been magnified with her, as I'm sure she feels her behavior has been magnified by me.
In terms of DV, it is 90% verbal with screaming, calling me every name in the book in front of the kids etc. A few times she has punched me in the arm or torso, broken my glasses and dumped ice water on my lap while I have been driving on the interstate. On our wedding night, she threw food and  screamed at me at the hotel accusing me of not eating enough at the reception (and therefore she couldn't eat much or be embarrassed). We both hurt each other, it's unfair probably, but she hurts me in the socially unacceptable ways and I hurt her in ways that are quieter and easier to excuse. I don't think either of us does it on purpose.

I'm sure in many of those situations, I served to amp her up instead of deescalating the situation.

In terms of why I'm it, it is because I see her heart and love for all our children. I think the best version of me can help her through her struggles while she supports me as well. Honestly, we wouldn't have made it 1 year if we didn't have small kids. We nothing to hope to return to. We each have threatened divorce and she more consistently says she will leave me when the kids grow up, if I don't change.

[zad7242]

I do believe the aggression was one sided at the beginning. I was genuinely shocked at the things she would get mad at me for and that made me the worst kind of human being. We met online and had a long distance relationship for over a year before deciding to get married. About 2 years into our marriage she developed a heavy drinking problem and hospitalization for detox. She then disclosed to me that she used some kind of substance including crack and heroin almost every day as an adult and our marriage was the first time she was trying to be sober.  I had only thought she smoked pot occasionally and drank socially.

I think the more time that goes by, the  more I can't contain my passive aggression and it's shameful. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, but I've recently (last 3-6 months) experienced a conscious phenomenon where I'm aware of myself feeling more safe when she is angry at me. Only thing scarier then her anger is her affection and desire for closeness, when it doesn't seem justified by remorse or any kind of growth. If she is raging at me , at least I know she will let me go to go bed after some screaming . We sleep in separate rooms. I sleep with our toddler and 8 month old in his crib while she sleeps in a room next to our big kids.

In terms of reflection , she does take a lot of time to reflect and she thinks she has come to truly know herself now. She posts on social media that she is bi-sexual  and has come to terms with the fact her family, my family and I are all abusive. She apologizes to the kids for screaming at them and does empathize with me for how hard it must have been for me during her episodes of psychosis. She does not seem to think her mental health has a relational aspect to it and maybe affects the way she interprets events and people's motives. For her BPD only means she has intense feelings and is sensitive to other people's 
emotions. Last May she kicked me out of the house on Mothers Day, I took my 2 bio-kids from my previous marriage with me. 3 days later she said she was unsafe by herself and asked me to come back. Otherwise we have never discussed separating. She says I just need to start being nice.

[zad7242]

Thank you again Marianne. I stay because we have 6 kids all under the age of 10. She loves my bio kids as much as hers (and hurts them equally you could argue). They adore her. My 2 bio kids already lost one mom to cancer even though they were too young to remember her. It's so tough. I have talked to a lawyer.
And yes there is a reason I must get into this type of relationship. I know grief and my own insecurities played a big role here.

[downwiththefog]

Hi, this has been a very interesting thread, thanks @zad7242 and @Marianne
Our situation shares a lot of what @zad7242 said, in that I lied to protect myself as I was preparing for divorce, and once the lies started, they kept coming.
And she lost her faith in me. I have been controlled by her for 25+ years, as I modified every behavior or word to avoid her scary explosions of anger, verbal abuse, occasional hurt, occasional damage to house items.
I cancelled my divorce in exchange for dragging her into couple therapy where I burst with anger at her behaviours.
Fast forward to now, I am verbally abused all the time, get reminded that her hatred of me is growing, etc. Tonight she wanted me to say that I gaslit her. I will be sleeping downstairs on the sofa while she will enjoy the bedroom. all too common now.
I am tempted all the time to start again telling her she has PD issues and is abusive, but I know that won't help. Still, I do not know for how long I can avoid to JADE.

In conclusion, Lies for self-preservation and peace are a necessary evil.

[zad7242]

Thank you downwiththefog. Does sound like you are in a similar situation. I get the cross-examination type questioning all the time. She asked me the other day whether I abused her physically, emotionally or both during the birth of our last child. When I tried empathizing with her anger , she kept pressing me to answer the question. Of course any denial of either kind of abuse proves I'm a narcissist to her.
In terms of lies , I agree with you but I've been able to lie less recently by seeking support from sources like Out of the FOG, that make me feel like I'm not hurting her reputation while getting a deeper kind of support. I hope it's a win all around. Best wishes

[bloomie]

As someone highly conflict avoidant and prone to telling white lies to protect myself and others feelings, I have placed myself into a very difficult jam with my uBPDw. I have lied to her countless times during our 3.5 year marriage. Mostly to avoid her triggers and conceal conversations I've had with friends and family members about our situation to gain practical and emotional support. Whenever I confess this to my own therapist, he encourages me to have more honest boundaries with my wife but minimizes my behavior by saying things like, "remember you are just trying to survive." He also recommends I don't volunteer info about sources of support but be honest if she asks directly.
  I'm struggling with this because my wife is very effective at getting the truth out of me or using her intuition to know when I'm lying or concealing something. This has crushed her trust in me and I'm sure majorly triggered her sense of betrayal and abandonment. But on the other hand, I've received advice to seek out support in private. I feel like it's a no win. Obviously she gets so much angier when I lie- she uses my lying as evidence that I am really the one with a PD, but she also will never support my need to have my own support system. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

zad - without trust, a reliable foundation cannot be built in relationships. Using lies as a relational tool to avoid upsetting or displeasing another person will erode your own belief in yourself, your confidence in your good character and create an atmosphere of uncertainty for your loved ones.

Secrecy and privacy are not the same thing. You are a separate person with needs that are uniquely your own. Your needs for peer support, therapeutic support and spiritual support are going to be different than your wife, your friends, your family.

Seeking support and help in managing the challenges of your life, and areas of your life where you are seeing you want to grow and mature in, is your human right. Keeping those avenues of support private is not lying or keeping secrets. Understanding that your processes and revelations in those supportive relationships are for you and you owe no one else explanation or a run down on those interactions might help empower you to protect your privacy without violating your wife's trust.

One thing that you have stopped doing is confiding in your wife's family and yours. Very wise and respectful to keep your support system to discreet people who have no familial ties to either one of you. Once you share with your parents, in particular, it risks them seeing your wife in a way that is negative and biased.

We do the best we know how when faced with very hard and confusing behaviors with someone we love. There is grace for that, but when we understand that revealing our spouse's weaknesses and struggles to our family members and their family members and then lying about it is a huge betrayal, it makes sense that would be destabilizing for anyone, we commit to gain support in more appropriate places.

It sounds simplistic to say this is at the root a boundary issue... but, it kind of is. You understanding your own boundaries and communicating them by living them out and stating them when you need to and discerning safe and appropriate places to seek help are all part of your side of the street and learning to be honest and still respect your own need for privacy - to communicate that in love and understanding, well my friend, that is what we come here to learn and grow in.

[zad7242]

Thank you Bloomie, I needed this clarity and directness to help me see where I've made mistakes. Other problem with sharing too much with my family or hers is they are not likely to properly hold me accountable. Especially in my case because my family and hers consider themselves direct victims of her behavior- so are biased in my favor from the beginning.

I hope to be able to prove myself and slowly build back trust with my wife.

[bloomie]

Thank you Bloomie, I needed this clarity and directness to help me see where I've made mistakes. Other problem with sharing too much with my family or hers is they are not likely to properly hold me accountable. Especially in my case because my family and hers consider themselves direct victims of her behavior- so are biased in my favor from the beginning.

I hope to be able to prove myself and slowly build back trust with my wife.

Very humble insights and a worthy goal of learning to trust yourself in the process of working through hard things, and then choose trustworthy responses and behaviors. Keep sharing and coming back! A very wise friend reminds me often... progress, not perfection is the goal!

[zad7242]

Bloomie or anyone with thoughts on this: how about general communication with my wife's family when my wife has cut-off them off? Am I permitted to text my mother in-law merry Christmas even if this would upset my wife or send my sister in-law a wedding gift? Or is it wiser to just sacrifice those in-law relationships in the name of respecting my wife's boundaries with her family, even if I don't think they are rational? Btw, her family lives halfway across the country so it's not like there are issues regarding visiting grandchildren or seeing them at the grocery store etc.

[square]

This is just my opinion.

I think that if I had cut off my family, it would feel like a betrayal for my spouse to continue with them.

I recognize that you feel she is the problem and not them. And that may well be. But even if that is the case, I'd say it's better to leave her than to maintain a relationship with her family when doing so is saying to her that her significant feelings are totally invalid. And they might be, I don't know, but they are her family and not yours. You can find other people, you don't need her family.

Especially since you and her family have mutually complained about her. That hurts no matter how crazy or wrong you are.

The other thing is, I can't actually say her feelings are invalid. Some family systems are very quietly toxic. Some are not that quiet but we may not recognize them. My MIL is quite toxic and my H knew it, but I didn't see it for several years.

Your family is yours and you have the right to see them even if she doesn't want you to (though she may also have a right to not be okay with that). Same with your friends. But if you are going to try to work on things with your wife, then this is a big deal.

[zad7242]

Square,

Your advice makes perfect sense to me. Wish I had it sooner. I haven't communicated with her family since the end of August and have no plans to, but I wasn't convinced where the boundary needed to be. You stated it very well and I appreciate it!

[downwiththefog]

zad - without trust, a reliable foundation cannot be built in relationships. Using lies as a relational tool to avoid upsetting or displeasing another person will erode your own belief in yourself, your confidence in your good character and create an atmosphere of uncertainty for your loved ones.

@bloomie many thanks for this post. I am glad that I never involved her family or mine in our relatioship problems.
But I have confided the struggles to few friends and the therapists - still, that is something that she cannot accept.

[MaxedOut]

I second what Bloomie and others have said. Whatever the dynamics, respect the spouse's requests about contact with their family. My uSTBXw and I have had convos about communications with a sibling because the two of us are the crisis people so there is need sometimes for communications, especially given the overlap between splitting, psychosis, and suicidality.

And similar to what others say on sharing/venting/support from those who are mutual contacts. I have leaned on therapists, online communities, and folks who are not connected to mutuals for the most part. My best friend was an exception but honestly it was not much sharing but my SO understood that is a relationship where talking about primary relationships is reasonable and that person wasn't someone to disclose to others.

I have had conflicts over demands to tell her the content of conversations. I learned that most of the time, especially if it was someone she was in conflict about, that the purpose was to pick apart stuff to criticize, control, or be angry about. She usually snapped out of it if I was firm about privacy, not sharing.

To build on what others have said, perspective on handling this needs to be more of a you thing. I mean that in a couple of ways: grounding thinking in your/general reality not the PWPD's, identifying your survival adaptations specific to this relationship versus stuff that was/is there already and just ramped up in this relationship, understanding your values and how to better live within those (and needs versus wants), your treatment of yourself and protecting your self-respect, thinking beyond the one relationship when it comes you how you are in other relationships now and future relationships.

This could be a whole post but also... we make a ton of choices, often between not great options. Our PDs have fluctuating reactions, expectations, interpretations, "rules." Often there is no "right answer" when our loved ones are activated and certainly when dysregulated. And there's never an end point on having changed/done enough, because it is about the disorder.

But consistency on our part, anchored in our values, can help steady things-even if it's not what they want us to do. No matter what, it is key in our own mental health and preserving self respect. That has been really key for me: stopping stuff that was against my values and that left me feeling ashamed.

Strategies may vary, sometimes just avoiding/refusing areas you know lead to this sort of friction (e.g., talking to mutuals about your relationship), sometimes clearly setting boundaries ("I am not going to discuss what I talk about in therapy."), sometimes truthful but general reassurance, and taking responsibility for your stuff.

Reflecting on your own history/patterns is helpful. Examples... In prior relationships, what have been area where you have maybe not been forthright or lied and what drove that? What about oversharing information about relationships? What are the biggest factors in it now? In the past, have you tended to base what you consider acceptable behavior for yourself in romantic relationships on whether the other person was being fair, behaving acceptably, etc.? What priorities do you have for your lived values in relationships and for the example you set for your kids?

We do these things for us. As you have found, it is impossible and disorienting trying to base your standards on stuff on a person with an unstable sense of self, reactivity, cognitive distortions, and shifting expectations. When it comes to lying, sharing information, contacting other people's family members, the answer should be similar in the hypotheticals of your relationship going forward, leaving your relationship but having others in the future, how you'd want to be treated, and probably what you want your kids to see.