The Payoff for Being a Caretaker

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Wishing everyone a good, meaningful, or at least tolerable day if Christmas has meaning for you. ❤️

I'm revisiting Stop Caretaking ... The last time I read it must have been 6 or 7 years ago when I was still with PDex.  I read it with the focus on what to do to fix things so I could be happy staying in the relationship.  It gave me pause.  Five years ago I went NC.

But I still had a few dependents who needed extra care, so I didn't completely give up my caretaking role.  In recent months, though, I have.  Those few family members who had long term illnesses don't need me anymore.  This is good news for them and for me.  And I haven't picked up any new applicants, though they are always around!

I believe the caretaking, which started with a PD parent while a child, became a compulsion.  I  believe compulsions serve to try to fill a hole left by an emotional wound.   Fjelstad asks "How would your life feel without all the chaos (which comes with being a PD's caretaker)?"  Surprisingly, she doesn't suggest it would feel great.  She wonders if it would feel more vulnerable, self-conscious, uncomfortable, and not-so-normal.  Bingo.

She also makes an interesting distinction between people she calls "Cutoffs" who no longer caretake because they avoid the traps (that's me) ... and those who are healed from caretaking and are not at risk for being hooked again.  These people still care about others, but don't feel the need to protect, save, pity or understand people like PDs.  That's what I'd like to shoot for!   I've never met Fjelstad, but she sure does "get" me!

[SonofThunder]

Hi Lookin!

Christmas wishes to you in return! This is excellent insight into the realm of caretaking and your views now from the other side.

I lol'd at "And I haven't picked up any new applicants, though they are always around!.😂

So interesting about "Surprisingly, she doesn't suggest it would feel great.  She wonders if it would feel more vulnerable, self-conscious, uncomfortable, and not-so-normal. Bingo."

Do you believe those listed feelings have reduced in you over the span of your discontinuation of caretaking behaviors?  When I proactively stopped caretaking my PDw, it felt very oddly rebellious inside myself and boldly defiant toward my wife, amplified by my wife's high radar, noticing everything I was not doing or doing differently and squaring up with me at every turn.

For me, since the whole marital relationship hinged on my caretaking (I learned to caretake from my mother), then my relationship with my wife was doomed. Our being together would have surely fallen flat way back in our dating days if I was not a hardworking and unknowing caretaker at that time. That fact was jarring to think about, decades later. 

I did find as time went forward though, I developed a bit of normalcy in non-caretaking but as you well said, there is still the spark of those behaviors inside me, that could be a natural (trained) go-to if I did not proactively control myself. 

Very interesting to contemplate and thanks for sharing!

SoT

[square]

Interesting thoughts.

I believe I am not a caretaker but easily could have been if I was raised by a parent who expected this. I am a problem solver, and that can be similar in some ways but the bottom line is I don't feel my value comes from solving other people's problems.

So that is context for my thoughts here. Since I *can* find myself taking on too much, I've found a framework that helps me. I think we ultimately all have to stand on our own two feet, which is an imperfect and ableist image, but it's what I use.

I can't walk for anyone else. 

I could carry someone else only very briefly and only in a real emergency, to get them out of immediate danger.

I can let someone lean on me sometimes. Not all the time, and not for *too* long. And I should be able to lean on someone else occasionally for a bit.

But ultimately we've all got to stand on our own two feet. And it's not a curse to do it but a blessing, that we can choose our own path and direction and pace and gait instead of being lugged around by someone else. So we should let people do it.

[treesgrowslowly]

I believe the caretaking, which started with a PD parent while a child, became a compulsion.  I  believe compulsions serve to try to fill a hole left by an emotional wound.   Fjelstad asks "How would your life feel without all the chaos (which comes with being a PD's caretaker)?"  Surprisingly, she doesn't suggest it would feel great.  She wonders if it would feel more vulnerable, self-conscious, uncomfortable, and not-so-normal.  Bingo.

She also makes an interesting distinction between people she calls "Cutoffs" who no longer caretake because they avoid the traps (that's me) ... and those who are healed from caretaking and are not at risk for being hooked again.  These people still care about others, but don't feel the need to protect, save, pity or understand people like PDs.  That's what I'd like to shoot for!   I've never met Fjelstad, but she sure does "get" me!

Thanks for sharing this Lookin 2B free!

The quote you shared from her, about how it would feel, that resonates. It made me think of all the great things I've learned from Jerry Wise. He describes the dysfunctional family system really well. I'll speak for myself - because I was a caretaker to 2 PD parents, before I had a chance to develop my own identity, the first stage in recovery would be rough. There's a lot of development that didn't take place fully for me. I was someone's caretaker instead.

Ultimately, we hopefully learn how to develop in some of the ways that we couldn't as children. My mother firmly insisted that my identity develop as her caretaker. She had zero awareness that there was something very very wrong with doing that to a child.

I'm so grateful there is so much information out there now, to help us. I had that compulsion, because I wanted people to bond to me, and I had been told to develop the identity of caretaker, and that happened before I was old enough to have any other option for survival.

So as an adult, all of that has to be unravelled because it was all FOG and dysfunctional!

If her quote is about how chaos feels "normal" to us, because we were trained to caretake a PD (early in life for some of us), I get that.

I totally agree with you, the compulsion serves to try to fill a void caused by emotional wounding. I think I've spent most of my life trying to get other people in my life to be more loving than they actually are, or can be. It was compulsive behaviour for a long time. I've compulsively chased emotionally immature people for mature relationships.   

Trees

[Lookin 2 B Free]

It's interesting, SoT, that the fear, obligation and guilt that was so compelling when PDex and I were together were not there while caretaking the other family members.  They were not trying to hook me and wanted to be as independent as possible, and only asked for things when they truly had no other choice. I would say that I am developing a new normal, as you suggested, but it's slow.

PDex felt it was my obligation (as did I) and would induce fear and guilt to get compliance, reminiscent of my childhood.  To your point, Square, I did grow up believing my value was in caretaking.  And like you, Trees, it interfered with my ability to accomplish individuation at an appropriate age.

Right now it seems to me the linchpin of this whole dynamic for me is feelings of obligation. When I sense that someone else with whom I have some sort of relationship believes I am obligated to them I notice myself feeling that's true too.  As if I owe something to every person I have some kind of relationship with, from a casual friendship to a marriage. (Thankfully I don't have this with strangers  .) 

It tends to be pretty targeted. The entitled person pins the tail (demand) on the donkey (me).  Then he (almost always males) and I both know that obligation is mine.  If I balked, he'd just give me "the look" & I'd feel defeated.  Kinda creepy.  I can feel it in my gut just remembering, even though it's been some years ago.

So I'm now in the Self Protector & Cutoff categories of caretaking accd to Fjelstad -- avoiding situations or sometimes NC.  I wish there were a workbook type group to join to do her Stages of Healing.  Maybe if I find myself with more time and energy at some point, I'll start one.

[SonofThunder]

Right now it seems to me the linchpin of this whole dynamic for me is feelings of obligation. When I sense that someone else with whom I have some sort of relationship believes I am obligated to them I notice myself feeling that's true too.  As if I owe something to every person I have some kind of relationship with, from a casual friendship to a marriage. (Thankfully I don't have this with strangers  .) 

It tends to be pretty targeted. The entitled person pins the tail (demand) on the donkey (me).  Then he (almost always males) and I both know that obligation is mine.  If I balked, he'd just give me "the look" & I'd feel defeated.  Kinda creepy.  I can feel it in my gut just remembering, even though it's been some years ago.

+1

I like your pin the tail analogy. I know the caretaker in me sits just below the surface, waiting for me to give in, and as you said "I can feel it in my gut..".  Its surely a proactive resistance on my part to say no to caretaking behaviors being outwardly expressed, but I cannot stop the internal feelings of obligation you write about, which I have to recognize and dismiss or proactively counter by boundaries put in place to protect myself from succumbing once again to my own learned behaviors. 

Im not caretaking anyone any longer, but it's surely a battle within me and I suspect it will always be there.  I also believe that reduced down to the bone, my own caretaking traits are really all about my own emotional needs. Those predator personalities in my life can smell my weakness and as you well stated, attempt to pin the tail on the me for a meal. 

Thanks for this thread. Its interesting to think about, using insight from your revisit of the book.

SoT

[treesgrowslowly]

I really appreciate this thread as well. Thanks for starting it Lookin 2B Free.

As someone who is individuating late in life (i.e. about 20 years after it was supposed to occur based on normal development with normal parents), I have had to realize how different things can be for us.

I think that, as JustKathy mentioned in another post here recently, the PD's always target and come after the empaths. The ones with empathy. We're really the only ones who will do what it is a PD is looking for.

When I went NC and wanted to get Out of the FOG and stop caretaking all these PD's in my FOO, there was not a lot of information for people like us yet. Random therapists made all sorts of assumptions about adult children of narcissists back then, it looked like they were guessing at what to do with us sometimes to be honest. They thought we were already individuated, or that we couldn't individuate - they were all over the map and not very helpful.

They didn't understand caretaking and nurturing. I'm a nurturing person, which is a good thing, but if you put me in close contact with a disordered narcissist who needs supply, nothing good happens. Hence the boundaries that we all know are needed around those people. So that we don't caretake them.

My IL's are perfect examples of people you can't nurture, but they want you to be their caretaker. There is a big difference. A difference I didn't understand back when I met them, years ago. I put my best foot forward to nurture a good relationship with them, but because they are disordered personalities, they couldn't work with that. It was all about getting me to caretake them. Like she describes in her book that you're re-reading.

Nurturing is a mature behaviour. It requires maturity, which PD's don't have. They just don't. They can't nurture anything from what I've seen. Because most people don't discern between nurturing and caretaking behaviours, the PD's get by and most people don't bother assessing whether it is dysfunctional or not. A lot of people just stay away from PD's but don't know why. And some of us get hooked in, especially if these people are family.

If the people we dealt with were not so devoid of mature empathy, we would not have the problems we have with them. We need to experience reciprocal, give and take on both sides, and to feel safe being nurtured by another human. In our quest for that, we can end up hooked by a narc, who presents as normal just long enough to hook us (i.e. during a love bombing phase). I have come to believe that our capacity to nurture gets misunderstood and misused. A lot. Even some well meaning but misguided therapists will tell us to change this trait in ourselves, which reveals how little they understand about us.

Trees

[SonofThunder]

Because most people don't discern between nurturing and caretaking behaviours, the PD's get by and most people don't bother assessing whether it is dysfunctional or not. A lot of people just stay away from PD's but don't know why. And some of us get hooked in, especially if these people are family.

+1

Imo, this very fine line is what feels almost sinister when analyzing the past with my PD's.  I personally believe that PD's are emotionally underdeveloped and have learned to instinctively compensate for the underdevelopment in certain ways. 

I also believe the gap between underdevelopment and fully developed is razor thin, yet that tiny gap makes all the difference in the world and is what provides the PD the ability to fully function in their public relationship circles. I believe that their missing 1% is actually to their advantage in some societal success scales because the PD's predator capability allows them to gain advantage while their private life sails under the radar. 

On the flip side, within the inner relationship circles (which most of here write about our experiences) is where the supply fuel for the missing 1% is harvested; that mature nurturing in which us non's have the capability, yet overcompensate into caretaking traits to try and keep the peace while the PD steady harvests supply from us like prey. 

Imo that razor thin difference is what is so confusing to both us nons, but also to those in the outer relationship circles and becomes that sinister thin strip of private life with a PD, in which I resided for so long.  When I stopped caretaking the PD, the supply stopped and the entire process was disrupted. Life got difficult on my tiny piece of real estate yet the outside circles were totally unaware. Motive is everything. 

SoT

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Interesting observations about living in the 1% and about nurturing v caretaking.  According to Fjelstad, noncaretakers  (people who can nurture but don't get hooked) quickly pick up that interactions with a PD are not rewarding and that normal reciprocity and boundary observance aren't there.  This makes them move away from the PD.

Also mentioned is that it is our own emotional distortions and unmet emotional needs that trap us into caretaking with a pwPD.  We misread the emotions of ourselves and the BP/NP.  And we tend to have some prominent fears:  fear of anger, of failure, and of being unlovable are among them.

It is the last one, I believe, that has led to feelings of obligations for me.  That I must make up for my unworthiness to be loved by giving something to which I myself am not entitled.  The pwPD will agree with me on this  - he is entitled to all the consideration, caretaking & control and I am not.  It's been based on the assumption (by both of us) that I am not equal.

So this has been a big part of my focus on recovery.  First to notice any entitled/unentitled equal/unequal imbalance (which I  never used to have awareness of).  Then to practice treating myself like I fully deserve what anyone else does.  Getting in touch with (and over my aversion to) anger has been really helpful in this.  I'm worlds better than I used to be, especially with nons.  I have a bit of work to do when it comes to interacting with uNPD.

[SonofThunder]

Interesting observations about living in the 1% and about nurturing v caretaking.  According to Fjelstad, noncaretakers  (people who can nurture but don't get hooked) quickly pick up that interactions with a PD are not rewarding and that normal reciprocity and boundary observance aren't there.  This makes them move away from the PD.

Also mentioned is that it is our own emotional distortions and unmet emotional needs that trap us into caretaking with a pwPD.  We misread the emotions of ourselves and the BP/NP.  And we tend to have some prominent fears:  fear of anger, of failure, and of being unlovable are among them.

It is the last one, I believe, that has led to feelings of obligations for me.  That I must make up for my unworthiness to be loved by giving something to which I myself am not entitled.  The pwPD will agree with me on this  - he is entitled to all the consideration, caretaking & control and I am not.  It's been based on the assumption (by both of us) that I am not equal.

So this has been a big part of my focus on recovery.  First to notice any entitled/unentitled equal/unequal imbalance (which I  never used to have awareness of).  Then to practice treating myself like I fully deserve what anyone else does.  Getting in touch with (and over my aversion to) anger has been really helpful in this.  I'm worlds better than I used to be, especially with nons.  I have a bit of work to do when it comes to interacting with uNPD.

Hi Lookin,

The sentence of your quote I made bold is precisely the FOO training ground in which I honed my caretaking craft and took my skills straight into my marriage. 

I was never good enough for my uPDf and any praise came only for compliance to his desires, which shifted like blowing sand.  I was striving for worthiness but it never met the mark. To try and keep peace I modeled my caretaking mother who was living the same unworthy life and we all had to steady escalate the performance as the bar just got higher. I then married a female version of the 'normal' I knew. 

The interesting thing for me to eventually learn was that the reality of those scenes was really the exact opposite (projection).  We all deserve equality as a human being, but in order for the empty PD to fill up on worthiness they believe they must take someone else's away to fill the void; that emotional harvesting type of predator/prey relationship. 

Your work on recognizing the unbalance that exists, allowing you to proactively protect your own worthiness, is fantastic! Agree fully that interacting with PD's whose entire focus is taking, is a whole new animal compared to nonPD humans.

SoT

[Lookin 2 B Free]

What a great insight, SoT.  The "emotional harvesting."  "In order for the empty PD to fill up on worthiness they believe they must take someone else's away to fill the void."   

I always felt a strange rivalry from PDex.  Envy up to his eyeballs for anyone, including me, who had anything he didn't (which he would state he deserved and we didn't).  I thought it odd he seemed always to be competing with me.  Why?  Over what?  We didn't have the same talents or even interests. 

But it was like there was an invisible scoreboard he was watching and he couldn't stand to see me gaining on him.  I don't know if this is so, but I wondered if the fact that I didn't feel threatened by his successes, was glad for them in fact, made him feel less secure as he always seemed threatened by my successes in anything, even though it had nothing to do with him.

I know how miserable I feel when I slip into petty emotions.  I can't imagine having a disorder which guarantees that pettiness as part of your minute-to-minute experience.  It must be awful.  And we all know how awful it is to be around. 

[SonofThunder]

Lookin, I agree with you regarding my experiences with my stbxw and the scoreboard. Even If I fully recognized her successes, I was always accused of thinking I was better than her. 

But then again, I believe PD's find great supply in the victim role of the triangle, so her accusations were an easy way to switch from persecutor to victim for the fuel-up. 

SoT