Man on a wire

[MuddledinMaine]

This is the first time I am trying anything like this, perhaps it will help.
I am a 43 year old man, married 20 years to a diagnosed BPD wife, with chronic, depression, severe anxiety, and a self proclaimed, empath. The last of which I have really had a hard time to understand.
I am not saying in any way that I'm the easiest man to live with, but I am a good father to our three boys, who are all over 18 years old at this point. And I am a good bumpa to our two grand children, I have worked hard, to be there as much as I can and still pay the bills. I do 95 percent of the work at home also.
My wife, smokes at least two packs a day, right now and drinks 3 to 5 liters of soda. I am afraid that she is slowly killing herself, doing so.  She has only worked off and on over the past twenty years, usually stating that saying home helped save on child care expenses, but there were times when not working that I was still dropping them off at child care or taking them to school, because she wasn't feeling well. She has also had bouts of the gambling bug, and has cleaned out the account several times, including taking 75 percent of a christmas loan and blowing it at the casino. I don't want to give up, but right now I have told her that I have to work on me, I have become so drawn into myself, I need to find a counselor. She has never liked me talking to my family members about what is going on and at this point, I don't know if it is right to do so, or she hs manipulated me into thinking that it is not ok. I don't have many friends to talk to either, because they are all "our friends". I have never spoken to the boys on the subject either, because I don't think it is right to involve them, myself. She has tried counseling but for some reason she never finishes with a counselor, there is always a point at which she says, that's enough. She is a very co dependent person, on not only me but to her mother as well. I feel like a puppet. I finally told her that I need to talk too someone, and her first response was " I hope you find the answers, you're looking for". I don't know if she ment it or was just trying to pick a fight, just seems like everything that comes out sounds sparky. I don't want to ramble just hoping that maybe someone else has had the same problems and possibly give some sound advise, because I am not sure if I can do this anymore, do they get better, or do I give up. Some days it just isn't worth it.

[notrightinthehead]

Welcome! You have found a great place. We are all struggling here, one way or another and we understand. Your first step should be to get to know the Toolbox, especially what to do and what not to do. Then begin to implement the strategies described there.
A therapist for yourself is another good idea. Make sure they have experience with partners of personality disordered people. There is a book that was extremely helpful for me 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline/Narcissist' by Fjelstad.
Come here when you can, at this time the chosen relationship or committed to working on it boards are probably your best fit. See you around on the boards.

[bloomie]

MuddledinMaine - welcome to Out of the FOG. You have found a community that is here to support YOU. This is a place with resources, links, book recommendations and conversations that are aimed at empowering and equipping you to embrace one of the most important mantras we say here: You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it. The 3 C's Rule

There is only one thing you can change and that is you. There is only one thing you can control and that is you.

The most fundamental thing I had to shift when dealing with decades long patterns of dysfunction in my own marriage was to begin to turn my time, energy, focus, my curiosity away from my H and toward my own healing and hope. I had placed my wellbeing and future in the hands of someone who was not able to even care well for themselves and make self aware, healthy choices. 

I was over performing in the relationship in a lot of the same ways you describe doing. At a certain point I had to stand up strong in the middle of my own life and develop a support system and path forward for myself. And I could not have done that without this community, a therapist, a mentor, books, vids, articles... I just went in deep and began a quest to healthier outcomes for my life. I am still very much a work in progress, but I am not where I used to be. 

You have taken important steps to reach out here and begin doing that for you. The questions I was asking slowly become about what was best and right for me and what I needed to do as much as I could with my one precious life.

I strongly believe that no one has a right to block, or emotionally manipulate us, from getting qualified help for ourselves. That is our human right.

I am so grateful you have joined the community. Keep coming back!

[MuddledinMaine]

I have been doing a lot of reading, can someone help me out.
My wife is a self proclaimed empath, I have always wondered, but wasn't sure what to call it, could it possibly be that she is projecting her feelings on others and calling it empathy. This usually occurs more often, during the rough times in others lives. Not so much during the good times.

[square]

I think what you mentioned is the main reason for a PD to consider themselves empaths.

I think there is a "magical thinking" that can happen with certain cases. It may also pair with a type of paranoia. People with paranoia believe they can sense people's "true" motives.

People with BPD are typically very "sensitive" - that is, (over)sensitive to the responses of others toweard themselves.

They may be aware on some level that they are oversensitive, but instead of concluding that they may be erroneous or maladaptive in their sensitivity, they conclude that they are more accurately sensitive than most people - in order words, empathic.

The fact is, they can be quite attuned to small emotional cues from others - but of course, only to those that fit their needs and narrative in some way. Sometimes they may appear to be helpful and giving to others, but it will turn out to be part of cultivating an image (for themselves if not others) of being wonderful and kind.

But more often, they are attuned to the negative cues to others, real or perceived, toward themselves. And even if those cues are real, they are often overblown, or they entirely ignore their own role in leading to the emotional response in others and make it the fault of the person who feels a certain way rather than a cue to consider their own behavior.

I actually don't really doubt that such people do genuinely believe they are empaths.

But they aren't.

[Rebel13]

I've noticed this trend of defining oneself as an "empath" lately and I'm suspicious of it. I'm suspicious of any theory that seems to suggest that some people are born better than others in some way. I don't know if there is any scientific evidence for it, or for other trendy self diagnoses, like being a "highly sensitive person."  Sometimes it seems to me this stuff is dreamed up to sell  books, courses, webinars, or life coach services.

[Rebel13]

"Why Is Everyone I Know an Empath Now?" https://www.vice.com/en/article/what-is-an-empath-real/

Relevant quote:

"Feeling the pain of others is a normal component of human development, and is described in psychological terms as "empathy." ...

What is clear is that being an empath isn't a concept that appears in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) or elsewhere in psychiatric literature, at least not as of this writing.... While the ability to pick up more intensely on someone's emotions may be real — some people are more empathic than others — the powers associated with being an empath as described online appear to be bogus pop psychology."

[Poison Ivy]

Google "can a narcissist be an empath." You'll find interesting results.

[newlyawakened]

Welcome to the forum MuddledinMaine.

I think you will find many in these forums who are traveling or travelled in a similar boat. You will get the support you need to understand and then make the right decisions for yourself.

Have you read the book "Stop walking on eggshells..."? After I learnt about BPD and my therapist opened my eyes that I am almost certainly married to a uBPDw, reading this booked helped me look more inward to understand and unlearn a lot of the behaviors I have grown accustomed to over they years caretaking a BPD. I learnt to be conscious of when I was performing the caretaker role and how to mimics it so I put myself first at least 51% of the time.  I encourage you to also go through the tool box and start practicing it a little at a time.

I personally think it is also ok to be talking to adult kids, as long as one is not accusatory of our spouse but speaking at a high level of the "difficulties you are going through in day to day life which seems ok when you were young but becoming getting tougher as you age".

As you speak out to others the burden on your shoulders ease a bit. I wish you the best on your journey to learn more and make the right decisions for yourself. At 43 you are still quite young. I am looking for a way to exit my 20+ year relationship with my BPD, and I'm already over 50. It feels like now or never for me.

[MuddledinMaine]

Had a quiet conversation with my wife tonight, about our unhappiness in our marriage.
But she said something Ina way that I don't quite understand, maybe someone can explain it, "in the end, I am afraid, you are going to lose me", I am not really sure how to take that statement. To me it sounded very narcissistic, am I taking it he wrong way? Seems like she thinks very highly of herself. Most people would say, I am afraid we won't make it, or one would be afraid of losing the other. Am I just reading it wrong. I don't know, any thoughts on it would be appreciated, especially if you have heard it before, thanks

[square]

I'm happy to provide a sanity check for you.

Yup, it's weird. It's narcissistic.

Yes, the lines you said are the normal ways of expressing that idea.

[MaxedOut]

That sounds like emotional manipulation to me. Without tone or body language cues or context it's hard for us to know. But it seems to have hooked your pondering and seems like the type of thing one would say to get the other person hooked in thinking or asking more. We don't like hearing similar stuff regardless of the context, and start to think about what they mean, why they say that, why they think we are not up to snuff, what we might do to prove them wrong, etc. She could be signaling that she isn't interested in providing what you discussed you need in the relationship and will leave rather than change.

Who knows. What I think we can say is that dropping a statement like that, without further explanation, is hurtful, is not helpful during a conversation where you were trying to communicate your needs, and is an emotionally manipulative way to deflect from the issues you were raising.

You are correct about what most people would say if worried and caring about their partner and relationship. And if a caring/non-PD partner said that, they would probably clarify after hearing it, or you would already have felt comfortable to ask what she meant.

[blunk]

While I agree with what Square and MaxedOut have said, I did have an additional thought when reading her comment, based on my own experience with a bpdxh.

In the context of them always feeling that they are right, I felt like she could have been alluding to...if you don't come to your senses and drop this nonsense of you having needs and feelings...you're going to lose me.

My xh could never accept that his actions hurt me. As soon as he was done being angry, I was supposed to stop being hurt. And when I, like you, tried to have a quiet conversation and explain my needs and the fact that I couldn't just shut off my hurt, I was told that I just have to accept that's the way he is. Basically, take it or leave it...I left it, eventually.

I'm sorry, they definitely know how to make our heads spin.

[MuddledinMaine]

Good morning all,
It's been a while, but I have been doing more research on npd, more specifically vulnerable narcissistic pd. And really only because, in one conversation my wife of 20 years, who had been supposedly diagnosed with BPD, about 15 years ago, told me that here latest therapist, who is also a personal friend, told her that she definitely didn't have that. So confused, after dealing with this for so long. I can only assume that she is pulling the wool, over her eyes also!!. By the way, she is also done with that therapist, after 4 or 5 sessions.
Can anyone enlighten me more on this vulnerable narcisstic personality disorder. From what I have been seeing, they like to play the victim.
It seems there is always someone who has wronged her in some way, from parents, to her brother, my family members, even our boys.
Or there is always a health issue.
I seem to have lost all hope of a future with her and I am very close to leaving. I did eventually talk to my adult boys about this. And my youngest made me promise, that if I leave, and mom gets better, please don't go back, because she will just go back to the way she is now.
I feel so shamefull, that my 19 year old can see this but it took, him telling me, for me to truly see it. Ugh.
On a positive note, all who are in similar situations, should find a church family, there came a point last fall, where I ran into a pastor that I knew, and almost lost it, and the first time, I walked into a church after that, I did lose it as I heard the sermon. I have found a new hope, that God, realized I had forgotten about. So grateful to have some personal support again, from the church members. I feel the end of my marriage, is near, I just wish it didn't feel like it is a relief. Thanks for listening, God bless.

[square]

Welcome. I'm glad to hear that you are feeling a bloom of hope.

It's very interesting how perceptive your son is.

My experience is not with vulnerable narcissism, but my understanding is that it's a narcissism that can't support grandiosity. The narcissist feels resentful because they feel like they should be acknowledged as superior but got cheated. So they feel really, really sorry for themselves and think you should too.

I'm very sorry you and your kids are having to deal with that. I'm sure it's lonely, exhausting, baffling, infuriating, and a hundred other things.

Read around and feel free to share what you're comfortable with.