Do OCPD angry outbursts ever end?

[Prototypian]

I often wonder how a person can remain healthy and so angry so much of the time.  It's a mechanism and behavior that's always shocking and always takes control when everyone else is trying to be calm.   The slightest shift, out of place item or decision made can blow up like a bomb.   I should just start expecting it.

[Xyz]

Jsinjin,

The uPDm with whom I am living often acts out with what I have come to think of as his "angry act" or "rage routine" or "angry thing" etc, I think of it in these terms because I wonder if it is a purposeful choice made by uPDm to go to the raging because it produces endorphins in the uPDm. 

From my research, it is my understanding that anger releases stress hormones such as cortisol and adrenaline, sustained release of which is detrimental to the body, but it can also release endorphins, which is what I am thinking is going on with PD.

I don't see uPDm's angry outbursts ever ending.  There are no downsides to these rages for him, only upsides.

Your words "always shocking" and "blow up like a bomb" describe what is a regular occurrence in my life.

[Prototypian]

I hear you.  I live with this sort of pent up fear of her finding something, anything. 

Our silverware has a few things that never get used.   They include butter knife spreaders and this set of serrated spoons for grapefruit.  In the drawer they're sort of on the far edge.   

I guess my youngest uses them when she loves to eat cantaloupe.   She is a summer lifeguard and at home with us from college and I think will eat half a cantalouoe melon in the evening after her shift at the local pool.  I think she uses those serrated spoons to scoop out the melon.  It's not somebtjng I pay attention to or care about. 

Yesterday my uOCPDw lost her mind wjtb anger in an investigation of everyone to find out where the grapefruit spoons had gone.  I tried to ignore it but several people in the house were under suspicion.   It's not odd to wonder where somethung is; it's odd to immediately assume the worst and begin attacking everyone around yoh.

This morning I was emptying the dishwasher and found three of those things in the silverware basket clean.  I asked what's the concern was and daughter said "I didn't know those were.grapeftuit spoons" and wife started a discussion on "why our daughter chose to use those spoons"

These are not valuable, this is not an heriloom silverware set, it's a set of 30 year old dillards Oneida stainless flatware that's probably completepy replaceable.   The whole thing is galactically stupid that 1 anyone cared and 2 it caused anger and an interrogation.

[Xyz]

Jsinjin,

I so relate to you living with a fear of your uOCPDw finding something, anything.  Talk about unhealthy, I picture myself with a constant cortisol dump from the near-constant tension I feel knowing that at any moment uPDm can blow up at anything or nothing. 

The episode with the grapefruit spoons, I relate to.  I don't see uPDm as meeting the criteria for OCPD, more along the lines of ASPD, but the unreasonable, absurd, *galactically stupid* as you so well said it raging seems to be the same, from what I have read of your posts.

The things you have written here - the immediately assuming the worst, the attacking, the interrogation - I so relate to.

As I said in my other post in this thread, I am thinking that uPDm is purposely choosing to rage because I think that raging releases endorphins in uPDm.  Along the same lines, I think that uPDm chooses to rage to give himself a dopamine hit.  I think that the same raging by uPDm that causes fear and sickness in me gives uPDm pleasure.

For what it is worth, I am so sorry that you are living this way.         

[MaxedOut]

To echo Xyz's thinking on reinforcing factors... two moments of realization for me about whether things might improve:

1) I knew the abusive stuff was generally behind closed doors and to those he cared most about. One morning she woke up in a foul mood that would have 100% led to a predictable series of events and maybe an unpredictable day of subsequent abusive stuff. But I did not hear the cabinet doors slam next. I did not hear the coffee pot contents splashed roughly towards the sink and angry refilling (ick on the whole coffee maker cleaning, but not the focus here). I didn't hear her talk harshly to the cats. Because, her sister was visiting. And she may have been extorting control some but was not masking. So, it was a choice. And tolerating various levels just meant the scale ratcheted up.

2) She was angry at me and not well generally. She was trying to be controlling but was also being very abusive so I respectfully followed my boundary to leave the situation for a bit. She was not willing to allow that space and kept ratcheting up the controlling and abusive behaviors via text until it was at suicidal threats/ideation. I said I wanted to be there for support but needed her to commit not to continue lashing out. I was clear that I would be thee to comfort a pond care but not as an anger target. She refused that condition and kept escalating to taking pills. At that point I went home and predictably was just torn into. I didn't really respond or engage much and definitely didn't engage in conflict. I basically just let her at have at it. As she was starting to wind down (or really, the sedatives were likely kicking in), I asked if she felt better from having lashed out at me for a while. She didn't try and frame or defend, she simply said "Yes, I do feel better. It's cathartic." That clicked into place more context about cycles of abuse reading. In a sort or horrific way. Freely raining abuse on me for an hour or so left her feeling better. It was rewarding.

Those were part of really getting that the behaviors that are harmful to me or others are rewarding to her. I still had some assumption that we probably both wanted less conflict and not to hurt each other but weren't finding a pathway to get there.

That also came with the understanding that me having my needs met was in direct conflict with her having her needs met. The "and vice versa" part was important. In some theoretical sense she may want a reality where she isn't so prone to dysregulation and pain/anger so that it doesn't hurt others. But she also believes much of it is just, and she is entitled to those behaviors because of whatever original sin she sees in the other, and she wants control and agreement. And those forces win out. She feels safer using anger and control to force the behavior she thinks she wants or the reassurance. And there is a wicked biological cycle of building tension that starts before the blowup and release of that tension and negative emotion when she ejects and turns the underlying anger, fear, shame, etc. outward.

[MaxedOut]

One other bit, I think much of the time they don't remain healthy.  Not long term at least. Even just psychologically, it kills connection and relationships, isolates, and tends to make ever more number of things anxiety sparking and triggering, which makes ever narrower spaces of feeling good. I think you talked about the OCD part getting worse over the years, Jsinjin. To me, that means someone has not stayed healthy.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I have lived with OCPD anger, etc., but not as a spouse and not as severe as the grapefruit spoon story. 

Is there some reason the Out of the FOG tools can't work or be used with these OCPD spouses?  I'm thinking of the safety section where it says to end the conversation or leave the premises when someone begins engaging in harassing, thought policing, or abuse (emotional, verbal, etc.) and also to call the police if someone is threatening suicide.

Used very consistently and the second the raging or threatening starts, I've found them to be pretty effective with other types of PD's, though I didn't use them as a child with the OCPD.  If letting someone browbeat you reinforces their behavior, I think leaving the premises to let them finish their first sentence of raging to themselves with no audience does the reverse.  The behavior wasn't completely extinguished, but it lessened very significantly after it was always met with this same boundary.

I only used the well check call once with my ex (I was at a different location at the time), but he never threatened again.  I believe he was doing it to manipulate me.  But if they really are out of control and ready to hurt themselves repeatedly, it seems like getting them professional help is even more important.

I wonder if people are finding it harder to use these, for some reason, with a pw OCPD.  If so, why?

[Prototypian]

I'm unsure.   One thing I've noticed is that the anger does have outbursts but then it also has a sort of righteous indignant public display and it has a long term memory.  At least for mine.   There is the surprising outburst over thjngs you don't expect and then behavior you can't believe is actually occurring.  You think it's a misplaced joke then you realize it really is deep anger over a spoon.

Then it's often in the midst of other people about something that is a gray or null activity.   Walking slantwise across a street (vs a crosswalk) like in our busy restaurant-filled downtown with slow traffic and hundreds of people on sidewalks can result in an angry public outburst of how that is illegal and if you try to ignore it, the loud indignation gets almost a scene or it really does become a scene.  Leaving and walking home as I have done was fine with her.   Her discussion will start with "is what you did illegal or not" and that is the only point.  Her anger is the not following of the rules.   

Example of this weekend:  the kids and I were in central Texas.   My mother lives on a river and not the one where dozens of people lost their lives this tragic weekend (thoughts and prayers).   We chose as a group (my kids and I) to go down the river on our kayaks.  It was not flooding or raining or under a flood watch or warning.  The river was a bit high and we wanted to hit some of the rapids.   We all are very experienced and had life jackets on, a radio with us and ropes but again, it was not in flood stage nor were we under a watch or warning.   We passed multiple inner tube riders along the way.   We made it down the two mile trek in normal time.   The level of anger even now a day later is absolutely at its highest level because "you don't know what could have happened and you are taking chances that the emergency personnel don't want you to take".  It's true we don't know what could have happened but one of my kids is a meteorologist, we were not under a flood warning or watch, there were no police or patrols at the drop in zone and it was running at normal cfs on the gauges. 


Often her anger is at what she believes the rules are.   I've often said her motivation in life is summed up as;

1) every rule must always be followed by everyone

2) if there is no rule, do nothing

3) never ever waste anything that could have any value


And any deviation from those thjngs results in anger that is deep seated with a long memory.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I guess it was a little different in my case.  The OCPD was repeatedly confronted by many adults and told how unreasonable she was being and other adults completely refused to go along with the craziness.  She still believed she was right and it was absolutely imperative that she control the situation, so she learned to make up convoluted stories (that had nothing to do with her real reasons or with reality at all) of why things had to be a certain way that nobody could understand and therefore could not argue against.  Since she was so adamant she got her way.  People would be totally baffled by her on a very regular basis, because they thought the story was the reason and it made no sense. 

JsinJin, has no one ever told your wife that she's being completely unreasonable or that they believe she's mentally unwell and needs help?  Does she know you believe those things or that the kids do?  Not that that would stop her or break the lack of insight. Not at all.  I guess it would just let her know why you don't want to sit and listen to her haranguing.  Or maybe it wouldn't even do that.

Is part of it that once the avalanche of raging is set off, it has to run its course (say 3 hrs), and if it's delayed it lasts longer and gets more ferocious?  And if you walked out of the house and stayed away and refused calls and texts for a week or two, she'd pick up right where she left off upon your returning, except worse?  Maybe like an avalanche, once it's set off there's really nothing in the world that will stop it.

If that's the case, it seems anything like an enjoyable time together would be few and far between at best. Or maybe you do actually enjoy some parts of your relationship with her. I suppose you've found the best balance you can of navigating the landmines while still having some life for yourself and not walking away from the marriage.

My problem with pwPDs has been this.  They always have an unshakeable belief that I'm completely obligated to go along with and enable their outrageous behavior.  Unfortunately, growing up in a PD household, I learned to believe I'm obligated to do that as well.  I have to challenge and act against that belief of mine to get free.  I've done that, but each time it's very hard & feels really wrong.  Hopefully one day that won't be the case.

[Prototypian]

L2BF

I appreciate your perspective.   The tough thing with OCPD from my perspective is that their belief system is stronger and more dogmatic than a religious zealot.   The belief in rules and order is so absolute that they can't imagine the unfairness of a breach in rules occurring.   The anger isn't a function of getting their way or controlling.   It literally is a view that this (whatever it is) can not and should not happen.  Everythjng is serious and everythjng is life or death or worse.

I've seen the behavior in a few people.   There is a role in the USA for municipal inspectors.   I had a home being renovated as an office.   It had new interior done and I acted as my own general contractor.  The inspector noted that each room was required to have a smoke detector inside of it and then one on the outside of the room above the door.  Two of the rooms were right next to each other.  The doors were 4 inches apart and I placed one smoke detector above both.   Because of municipal rules the inspector said I had to have a second one.   I actually don't care.  While stupid physically I was willing to do the 15 dollars smoke detector and have it wired in.   But I made the off handed joke that I was "actually planning to have a trained howler monkey sit up there and sniff the air for smoke". 

You would have thought that I made a joke about genocide.  The man started shaking.   He was offhandedly repeating rules and staging that this is not something to joke about and "did he need to scrutinize every part  of this job again".  He mentioned that trained animals can't function as smoke detectors and he was physicallly angry.  I had thought that he was sharing that I needed the second smoke detector to pass and "just do it even though the rule makes no sense". 

That's the kind of behavior my wife exhibits. 

We were once leaving a waterpark near my mother's home and multiple kids of my own and nieces and nephews were there and various adults had come and gone.  The whole crew was loading up in the minivan and were leaving to drive back to my mom's for burgers and dinner.   Our minivan had seating for 7 and as it happens more kids and adults showed up needing a ride.  My aunt decided to sit on the floor between seats.  The drive was less than 10 minutes.  We were all soaking wet.  The kids all had towels and they were all strapped into car seats or had seatbelts on.   And the windows were tinted.  We had a 5-7 mile drive on rural streets on a weekend evening in the summer.   And my wife stopped the car, turned it off and refused to drive because a person did not have a seatbelt on.  We had to call another relative to pick up the one person.

Now I get that this is technically "against the law" for drivers and passengers.  But I grew up in a family that would load up at the beach house with 10 kids in the back of a pickup with floats and surfboards to get us to the beach a mile away.   There is a certain aspect of rational common sense that is part of how things can be done.

My wife can't handle that.   She threatened to call the police on me once when my car was out of registration and I was driving to the airport for a trip and didn't have time to get it registered at that time (it was a month out).  Her point isn't what needs to be done or common sense.   It's what the absolute interpretation of the rules are for everyone at all times.   She gets physically and emotionally angry if she sees someone drive on the shoulder to get around slow traffic or someone waiting to turn left.   Like mad enough to be screaming.  She doesn't see that as strange.  She sees it as completely irresponsible that someone would not be upset about that behavior.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I wonder how far she would go.  Let's say you were in a restaurant or store and did something which is fine, maybe even necessary for the moment, but is technically against the rules and you refused to stop even though she was making a scene.  If the manager told her to stop or they would call the police (and you continued to hold your ground), would she be able to stop herself or just keep revving up all the way to the police station?

I had a severely mentally ill (psychotic) relative who repeatedly made scenes and was picked up by the police and sent to the state psychiatric hospital.  She was able to modify her behavior for a brief time once the police were on the scene (having had the experience of being hauled away many times)  but after some minutes she could not control it anymore and they'd have to take her.  Do you think your wife's behavior is that involuntary, that she couldn't stop it even if it meant getting locked up?  (BTW, I'm not making a suggestion for you to do here, just wondering her limits.)  I'm assuming that, like many PDs, she sees you and the kids as extensions of herself who must tow her line completely, and that she doesn't make a jaw-dropping public scene every time she sees a stranger break a rule (even though she emotes to you).

[Prototypian]

She is one of those ultra strong personalities who does make scenes on the righteous side of rules.  Littering, not picking up after your dog, parking in the handicap without sticker.  Not things I would ever do but all things she has caused a public scene about and refused to back down.   The events make everyone around her uncomfortable but she seems to thrive on it.

In a surreal moment once we went out to breakfast.  It was the first break we had over a period of months and I was looking forward to it.   She was on her phone the entire time communicating about local political thjngs and I finally stood up, got my food to go and walked out.   She lost it.  She had actually driven and her anger was so violent.  She was mad at me because "someone had asked for her help" which meant that someone needed her to fix something in the city and as an elected official she never ever missed that opportunity.   She was so angry in the car that she was waving her hands and driving like an absolute nut case.  I began asking to get out of the car and boom, police popped us and we had to pull over.  the police had seen her erratic driving and anger waving her arms and oullled her over.  They separated us and I began to realize that the police thought I was abusing her.  I explained that she had gotten angry over my wanting to go home and they quizzed me about what would I do when we got home. 

Eventually they let us go and I didn't takk to her the rest of the day.  Her anger was really that her answering that question was very important and that I wouldn't think it was critical made her angry.   

And yes the kids walk on eggshells around her too.  Her anger is such that calling her out makes her angrier because in her mind she is only upset when some gross miscarriage of justice has occurred. 

Imagine someone who reads and studies every rule that a city and state has.  She knows that the garbage pick up city rules says the trash can should be 12-18 inches from the curb and there is physical anger and fear that someone would put their garbage outside of that range.   

She also has a strange passive aggressive behavior.   If someone in the house forgets to put something away like the ketchup she makes a big deal out of dleliberstely interrupting them
Often hours later, to ask "hey (child's name) are you finished with the ketchup?"

To
The point that I have left on a flight and I'll get a call with the passive aggressive statement of "hey do you still need your coffee maker on".  When I have called her out she gets angry stating that it's a waste of something and she doesn't understand why someone would
Make that miskrkw
 

[MaxedOut]

So she will break a lot of rules, Jsinjin, if it serves her need for control. Safety rules, driving rules. Similarly, she is more than willing to treat you and others unfairly, to cause injustice within her own home.

It feels like she, and you through her conditioning, see her as a stickler for rules but as an honest broker in terms of valuing/following rules because there are so many, and so many areas she will take issue with. But the rules about the rules change with her needs and what she wants to control. If it's you, she's willing to drive totally recklessly, endanger lives, etc. but if it's you, she'll threaten to call law enforcement to emotionally blackmail you to get your registration done.

So to your question on whether outbursts ever end, I think they don't as long as the payoff exceeds the cost. And both of those are per the definition of the outburster. So, what are the rewards and costs to these outbursts?

Some of this may have nuance - for example, would she go through the same hoops to help on some local political issue if it had no link to her (no reputation factor, credit, even knowledge she made a difference)? I would argue it sounds like public perception, reputation, etc. are bigger drivers than she acknowledges because people who are helpers/people pleasers typically show that most towards those they care about most. If "being helpful" was the big payoff and character trait and value, your home love would probably be very different. And righteousness is very different than standing up for what's right.

The other pieces is whether you are you willing to reduce rewards and/or increase costs and what might that look like?

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yes, only certain rules are absolutes. Heaven forbid you jaywalk. Why? Your wife might be driving like a crazy person!

This is also like my uOCPD father. He was very stickler about certain unimportant things because it's the RIGHT THING TO DO. But stop signs and speed limits? Those are for other people. He was also such a stickler about certain points of etiquette that he was very willing to be quite rude berating us for our inexcusable (normal) manners when in company with other people. He missed the entire point of good manners all together, which it sounds like is the case for your wife with getting obsessed with jaywalkers and garbage can curb distance but feeling justified in endangering people while driving in a rage. The Bible calls that straining a gnat but swallowing a camel.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I have to agree.  My observations of the OCPD in my family were that things had to be followed to the t, But if she were angry, her behavior could be quite out of bounds.

I don't feel her motives were control.  And I don't feel it was the same as an NPD's "I'm entitled to do whatever I want & you're obligated to comply with my orders."

My sense was that the motivation for the OCPD behaviors was fear reduction.  That the rigid rule making and enforcing was to ward off immense  & intolerable anxiety.  Seemingly life or death, as JsinJin said.  That's how it seemed to me.  I imagine meds for anxiety could make a big difference.

[Prototypian]

I'm unsure how the trigger for the anger occurs.   I do know that entering any venue like a theatre, national park, city park, concert or wherever we might go always involves reading every single sign, warning info, literature and often spending considerable time quizzing and talking to the park ranger or security guard or attendant and getting significant clarification on the rules.   My kids (all college aged or out of college) have learned and eye roll when we show up at a place knowing that their mom will spend a good 10 to 15 minutes before entering learning all of the rules. 

I've shared this before but one of her emotional breakdowns (not anger but more of something she couldn't handle) occurred when I was given a set of vip tickets including parking and line skipping and private club are and featured up close seating at a large popular music concert).   Showing up at the massive venue had us scanned while pulling into parking and the attendants immediately moved barricades to a special parking area.   Showing up at th entrance had us walking to a very special line that skipped all of the searches and took you around into a white glove area and then given bags of crap and then into a dining area near the stage then escorted to our seats after pictures with the band for a few minutes right before the concert.   She was nearly hyper ventilating because everyone else had to stand in line.  Everyone else had all of these rules to follow and the few corporate vips got to skip all of those rules and I can't believe the panic attack.   In that case she wasn't angry, she was overwhelmed.   Everyone else I know would have been in a mode of "this is awesome!!!" And her fear and anxiety was that clearly someone (her) was not following the rules.   The same thing happened to our whole family one time on an airline trip with some sort of reciprocal first class treatment entering customs in another country.  I traveled a lot then and my status stuff let us as a family get whisked to a lounge that also had the customs agents there while we switched planes.   She could see that most people got in the lines in the cavernous room full of queues and my kids (in high school at the time) were high fiving and totally excited to get pampered service.   My wife was so nervous, upset and distraught you would have thought we were robbing a bank.

Her mother was similar in other ways.  She couldn't leave anything on or plugged in when she left her house.  That alsways seemed ocd to me but I recall she also couldn't let our kids (her grandkids) play normally on the playground.  Most kids run around and climb and jump off and slide and hang upside down.  Her mother absolutely feared that unstructured sort of play because it seemed either dangerous or against the rules.  My son was a normal little boy so after a few slides or swings or climbs he tended to then slide down backwards or jump off the swings. While this can lead to potential injuries there is also an element of that kind of unstructured messing around is what some little boys do and if it's not in the realm of dangerous or damaging to the playground or injuring others, little boys jumping off the swings is kind of how they play.   Her mother couldn't relax and watch from a bench while the kids played.  She was petrified of them breaking what seem to be the perceived rules of the playground.   I believe that kids swing on, climb and do weird gymnastics things on monkey bars.  She was constantly worried about whether they might fall.   

I didn't know about ocpd back then and didn't understand that this wasn't some sort of quirk.  I for example like two coffee cups at home and try to always use one of them.   I consider that a quirk.   My kids know those are dads coffee cups.  But I would never lose my calm over them being used by someone else or not having one of them.  I just prefer them and I tend to put them near the front in the cabinet.   

My wife can't handle a spoon of small size being put in the slot for the medium/big spoons not out of a oreference but because it seems to be some rule and she gets emotionally angry and starts a search to learn who the culprit was.  When you ask about why it's so important you learn that it's a deep belief that this is a rule and a specification and there simply can't be tolerance or an acceptance that it is misplaced or misused.  It's just too important.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

My understanding is that genetics plays a part in this.  Thank God your kids didn't inherit it!

You have incredible patience with it JJ.  I suppose I did too when I was young and living with it.  Now I'm very reactive to that kind of thing.  I'd have to leave within a few minutes of someone starting it up.   In fact, I learned enabling very early on and it was second nature for quite a while.  Now when anyone tries to get me to enable their dysfunction of any kind, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard.  I guess I had enough for one lifetime!

[Debberdevil]

Walking slantwise across a street (vs a crosswalk)

THIS!!!! MY AUNT... already high strung with grocery list and HAVING to go to the store along with the post office too... oh, and exercise class... is a stressful busy day. You let her weave the parking lot searching for the perfect park... and come upon some leisurely human being inconsiderate by walking slantwise rather than directly and briskly crossing the lane (showing respect for her time and busy day) she will blow a gasket. She cannot be thrown off schedule or tolerate what we would consider a non issue but to her a deliberate attack towards her and her time. Rule follower both real and her unspoken ones that everyone should just know.
So exhausting.