Dating Jitters

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I've been alone (and away from PDex) for 6 years. (Yay!)  I've carried so much self doubt about whether I can attract, or be attracted to, a different kind of person and do things differently.  I've also been really wary of dating sites, which seemed like swimming in shark infested waters to me.

I decided to try it anyway.  I've been having a brief foray with one person, nothing very serious or physical yet due to distance, but emotionally intense which is probably a red flag.  I moved back which may have killed it, still TBD, and decided I need to continue meeting others which I'm doing.

Nothing bad has happened, but I've had this feeling of being "hooked" which I don't equate with healthy relating.  I know there's a little bit of hormone insanity which comes from falling for someone, so is it that?  Or is it that I've never had a calm love relationship (thank God for calm, steady friendships!) and those type romantic potentials just seem like "no chemistry here"?  This is testing my new skills like nothing else has.  I'm glad I started back in therapy (IFS, which is seeming particularly helpful).

Is there anyone else who has a history with PD spouses or romantic partners who has tried this and has some wisdom to share?

[GoodPesto]

Hi Looking2befree,


I have a history of PD romantic partners and have asked myself very similar questions.
Even after years of therapies, alternative therapies, self-help books and seminars, etc., I emotionally react to a certain type of PD like when I was completely blind for the dynamics. Today I can detect the traits early on and tell myself "don't you dare to get involved with this person" but they remain the ones I feel attracted to.
I thought for some time the trick would be to date people that I do not feel attracted to and that this would help prevent the PD pitfall. Could work for you, but I cannot recommend it from my experience.
Regards your gut feeling around the connection to that one person:
"Brief foray", far away, serious but not really, and very intense. Could or could not be killed by moving back, feels like a drug and needs a definition. Sounds like trouble to me, too.


It could be a bit like a safety net I think to keep meeting different people. This way you get the chance to get to know different people, see nuances, feel differences, split your focus, etc and see what grows out of it organicly.

One thing a therapist said to me once was that it would be a relatively safe approach to get to know somebody over the course of a year or two in a certain setting (work place, sport pal, etc.) and to ask for a date if you (learned to) like them after that time. It made much sense to me because this way you know a little about important characteristics like reliabilty, backbiting, integrity, degree of down-to-earthness etc. You may also have experienced already how this person behaves in socially demanding situations (like conflicts). So after a year or two you would check out if there is a spark that could grow when starting to go out.
Maybe there is someone already in your life that you would never have thought of in romatic terms but that you really like from non-romantic-experiences and with whom you have a genuine-enough connection to be curious how s/he would show up if you asked him/her out for a date.
Best wishes.

[TimetoHeal]

Oh, yes, 100%!

I think you have a lot of self-insight as to what is going on and what may be unhealthy or a red flag.  I have fallen for the love-bombing at the beginning of a relationship so many times too.  I know some people have had success with online dating - my brother and SIL and their 3 kids are living proof! - but I personally did not have good experiences with it.  I think those of us who tend to be attracted to drama and strong emotions have to be extra careful.  It's easy to quickly form a strong emotional bond with someone online before you've even met them in person, I think because they literally can be anybody you want or need them to be!  Then, yes, you are "hooked" on the dopamine that is being released in your brain by your interactions with them. 

I don't mean all this to be negative.  I'm sure online dating can work, especially if you keep it light and meet the person fairly soon to see if there is any real connection there or if it's all in your fantasies.  I'm glad you are back in therapy, and encourage you to bring it up there.  Also, personally, I have gotten to the point that the only way I will have another romantic relationship is if I can find someone who is like one of my good friends first.  Easy and gentle on the nervous system.

ETA:  Congratulations on being 6 years free from your toxic ex!!

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Thanks to both of you!  Good Pesto, trying for someone I feel nothing for and am not attracted to has never worked for me and, I believe, just wastes their time (and mine).  Going slow is a cardinal rule which I've known for a long time but sometimes it's worked just to slow them down a bit instead of going at a pace I want.  I don't know if people who try to hurry through can sometimes be healthy, but I think almost all unhealthy ones do try to rush.  I wonder if it's the case that virtually no PD would hang in there if you had good boundaries when it comes to pace (which I intend to have for sure).

It's interesting, TimetoHeal, I've always been attracted to love bombers (at the time not knowing that's what it was).  This person does absolutely none of that; is almost the opposite of that.  I'm very pleasantly surprised I like that.  It feels honest and trustworthy.

I guess instead of fretting over what I'm missing or doing wrong, I could appreciate the growth which has come from therapy, Out of the FOG, etc.  I've been pretty direct (but not thoughtless) the few times it's come up, even though I was trained to believe that will end in rage, punishment, discard, etc.  No walking on eggshells and it's nice to be with someone who appreciates that.  Boundaries - respecting both my needs and the other's.  He's got a lot on his plate right now and needs a fair amount of downtime which is sometimes hard for me as I'm used to the first part of a relationship going like gangbusters (from previous love bombers). But I realize it's probably a healthy request and just different (not born of manipulations or discard) and I can be with that.

Dating others may end this, but it feels right.  Not because I want a male "harem;" I don't!  I'm very naturally monogamous. Intuitively it just feels healthy, especially since there are a few things which are in the way with the preferred guy and might make it fall through.

It bothers me that I think of him so, so much during the day (and night).  It affects my sleep.  On the other hand, I wondered if I could feel so connected to anyone after what I've gone through with PD partners.  So, in a way, it's heartening ... as long as I show up for the other parts of my life, too.

I must say, though, it's somewhat nerve wracking to be doing this again, and not 29 anymore.

[GoodPesto]

Sounds like you have quite some clarity around what you want and need, that's pretty neat. As well it's inspiring how well you are connected to your intuition and dare to trust it.
Wishing you lots of good time, good guys and just the right amount of equlibrium.

[walking on broken glass]

I second what Good Pesto said!

I also think it's a good idea to widen your net, as it were. You are not committing to anything, just seeing what the scene is like

Fun fact: when I met my partner, I had just started dating a guy I had met online. The online guy was the first person that got me excited about dating after a long time. But he wasn't very responsive or consistent. When I met my partner at a work event, I thought that he was cute and that he looked like a nice person, so I got in touch with him to ask if he wanted to have coffee. He responded very enthusiastically and we hit it off immediately! I am still very grateful that I didn't hold back from contacting him out of a false sense of loyalty to the other guy. We wouldn't be together now and I can't imagine my life without him.

So yeah, get out there and have fun! I will keep my fingers crossed for you 🤞

[TimetoHeal]

Dating others may end this, but it feels right.  Not because I want a male "harem;" I don't!  I'm very naturally monogamous. Intuitively it just feels healthy, especially since there are a few things which are in the way with the preferred guy and might make it fall through.

Aw, c'mon, why not?  Just kidding!  Seriously though, when I was doing the dating thing a lot of "dating advice experts" recommended that women be dating more than one man at time until it becomes exclusive.  Like, you all talk about it and decide together it is exclusive.  And to assume that the other person is doing the same, because they probably are.  So I think you're on to something there!

I think it's great that you are putting yourself out there again.  It takes a lot of courage, whether we are 29 or 59! 

[notrightinthehead]

 

I think you are very courageous!

[walking on broken glass]

Also, I have been recommending this group to all my (female) friends who are dating: it's called burn the haystack and it's on facebook and instagram. It was started by an academic who noticed certain rhetorical patterns that indicated certain behaviours amongst men in online dating. She has articulated the patterns and explains why they are problematic and how you can identify them so that you avoid the problematic behaviours. She recommends when you meet a guy that presents with these, you should immediately block then and not engage with them. This saves you time and energy, protects you from potential abusers, and ensures you won't get the same profile twice.

An example of a pattern: many guys boast about their accomplishments and how busy they are - this shows an 'I am the prize' narcissistic behaviour. Or others insert something sexual very early on in the conversation and if you call them out they say 'they were kidding'. This is called 'test and apologise' and is an early indication that this guy won't respect boundaries.

Most of these are behaviours you would probably note and avoid anyway, but having a name for them helps identify them more quickly!

Have a look if you are interested I joined the facebook group out of curiosity. It does make you despair with the state of online dating but has some good advice.

[TimetoHeal]

Also, I have been recommending this group to all my (female) friends who are dating: it's called burn the haystack and it's on facebook and instagram. It was started by an academic who noticed certain rhetorical patterns that indicated certain behaviours amongst men in online dating. She has articulated the patterns and explains why they are problematic and how you can identify them so that you avoid the problematic behaviours. She recommends when you meet a guy that presents with these, you should immediately block then and not engage with them. This saves you time and energy, protects you from potential abusers, and ensures you won't get the same profile twice.

An example of a pattern: many guys boast about their accomplishments and how busy they are - this shows an 'I am the prize' narcissistic behaviour. Or others insert something sexual very early on in the conversation and if you call them out they say 'they were kidding'. This is called 'test and apologise' and is an early indication that this guy won't respect boundaries.

Most of these are behaviours you would probably note and avoid anyway, but having a name for them helps identify them more quickly!

Have a look if you are interested I joined the facebook group out of curiosity. It does make you despair with the state of online dating but has some good advice.

Oh, this is great advice, WOBG!  I may join just out of curiosity too, whether or not I ever decide to dip my toe in the waters again.  I definitely experienced the "test and apologize" very frequently.    It took me awhile to figure out why this was so problematic.  I'm a slow learner I guess.    And I had an experience with the "I'm the prize" guy, and it confused the heck out of me.  It wasn't the typical love bomb, so I thought, "Oh, he's being smart and not saying 'I love you' too early" and stuff like that.  In reality, he was completely not emotionally available and was just leaving me hanging on until he found someone "better". 

[walking on broken glass]

It's definitely very informative! And there are lots of patterns which were instantly recognisable to me: like the 'directive' pattern, a guy telling you in his profile what you should be like and incorporating orders in his chat, or 'I dare you', saying something like 'if you want to go on a wild ride, text me', or the 'sexual non sequitur' one, where they insert something sexual in the conversation out of the blue, or 'manic pixie dreamer', expecting to meet a quirky, sweet, perfect woman straight out of a movie etc.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

This is just great!  Getting so many ideas and so much support and encouragement.  Thanks, everyone!

I ended up realizing the person I'm really crazy about just has too much on his plate to be available for the kind of relationship I want and that I was starting to feel frustrated.  I didn't want to get to the point of resentment, so I initiated a frank discussion and "cut bait" in a friendly way,  with the option of staying in touch.  (I wonder if we really will keep in touch.)

It's feels rotten right now, like I made a mistake because I miss him and don't feel interested in even talking to anyone else.  I guess I need to give it some time, some weeks to detach, grieve a little, so I can move on.  I'll tell you, after years of being alone, being mutually smitten with someone who is warm and thoughtful, communicates well, & takes responsibility for himself is heavenly!

Can I manage to be hopeful we might reconnect in the future when the current barriers will be gone without crowding out a place in my heart for a good, loving relationship with someone else right now?  Maybe as time softens it all?  I'm planning not to reach out to him for quite a while so I can detach.  Yet I hope every day that I hear from him.  I guess that's just being human. 

[walking on broken glass]

I think it's absolutely natural to feel as you feel, having developed feelings for someone who was nice and warm back, after a long time. I think it's wise to give yourself some time to adjust to his absence from your life, even if he wasn't an everyday occurrence. I don't think hope is unreasonable either, as long as you don't find yourself holding out for something that may never materialize or sabotage new connections. You may also think about him differently after some time has passed. Everything's quite fresh and raw just now. If you feel like it, you can keep chatting with people online and see if you click with someone else.

[1footouttadefog]

I have been studying the online dating scene vicariously for years, through friends, reddit and a couple of good content creators and podcasters.  I enjoy hearing the stories and to be honest it makes me feel less bothered by my current limbo status and reduced FOMO alot.  A LOT.

It seems that for almost all the pitfalls of modern dating TIME is the best filter. 

Time to get to know them, time to sort your own feelings, time to see patterns, etc etc.

Advice, make a list of traits you are attributing to this potential partner.  Ask yourself if this based on your experience with them, evidence that you can check on, or just what they told you in texts or over a glass or wine, or just plain wishful thinking and fantasy on your part.

I heard some good wisdom back in the day and passed it to my kids and friends.  It was something like, you will marry the past person you dated, so as soon as you see a marriage deal breaker, quit dating that person and giving your self away to them.  Of course this could be applied to long term relationships or even friendships in terms of cutting an running when a deal breaker is encountered. 

Outside of deal breakers there are things one has to decide if a compromise or lowering of the bar is in order. To that I recommend cosidering the lowering of a bar only if another bar or bars is/ are higher than expected.
In other words, keep analyzing what you are seeing against what you desire, and don't lose out due to the sunk cost fallacy. Just be apse you have spent some hours having a blast texting and drinking coffee or wine with someone does not mean you are so invested you cannot still look around and meet others.   

Do background checks.  I did one on a man I was going to spend some time with related to a hobby.  I noticed that he had moved around a lot within a metro area.  I also noticed he had likely changed white collar jobs frequently, had then gone through bankruptcy then lost some real estate to foreclosure.  He had taken up an entirely new blue collar career in order to maintain high income indicating debt and had no retirement in sight despite being 65 and having been a big income guy for decades.  He had had an online based business  that still had a web presence and linked in presence, that was stagnated since years prior.  He was living in a home that did not belong to him.  So renting or living with a woman.

Just from doing that background check, and google, linked in search. I could tell that this guy had had a career crash, he had aged out so to speak then was a partner in businesses that have potential for sketch, it was sales and sales forces with levels of commission.,  and he had lost homes and divorced a couple times a long the way. 

I enjoyed his company but was a bit wary and made a note to myself that he would likely try to interest me in his business.  Sure enough....bingo
 
Had I been looking to date someone for a long term relationship or potential marriage, the lack of financial stability at that age would be a huge red flag, I would need to know more because I would not want to parent an adult or be a sugar moma.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Wow!  I had no idea of the breadth of dating wisdom on this forum.  You guys are a goldmine!

Thanks, WOBG.  Everything you said is right on.  I am interested to see how my feelings and opinions might change with some distance.  I've been so smitten, he could give me lectures on the composition of cement and I would have found it endearing.  That's not the kind of thing that has a long shelf life. (Though he's a very bright, engaging, and interesting person, currently my favorite person to talk to, by far.)

1Foot, I have been doing "reality checks" by reading over old texts and emails - usually to quell the "he can't really be that interested in me" distortions.  As far as dealbreakers, I've had a number of online contacts who fit so well with me in almost all areas .... but one thing is just really off.  But it's something that I can't imagine living with, so I figure I shouldn't waste their time or mine at that point. Nor would I want anyone to hang in with me in a similar situation.

Your background check story reminds me of something that just happened with a friend who is newly engaged to an online guy (after not very many months and his history of debting and getting in deep with multilevel marketing schemes).  I met them somewhere and while she was off preparing something, he tried to sell me one of his products; the very first time he ever me me.  Ugh. No thanks!  I hope she takes care not to lose her house or assets the way others I know have had happen, both women and men.

[JustKeepTrying]

Lookin you are very courageous and I applaud reaching out and asking for help. Six years free is a big deal as well!

The burn the haystack is an excellent resource. I found it helpful beyond dating as so many of the rhetorical patterns can apply to other situations. It can be overwhelming at first but well worth it.

I dipped my toes in and the first several were disasters. I was naturally drawn to three NPDs and wow was it wrong. But I did eventually after a couple of dates spot it and moved on.

I am dating now and have been in a monogamous relationship for close to two years. The best thing my therapist told me is that it will feel boring. I was confused but what I she meant was there would be no wide swing of emotions - no push or pull or excitement - just steady and patient. And when I wanted to walk because it wouldn't feel right - she encouraged me to stay in it and wow did it work.

Also, I did take the time to know what I wanted - who I was - and what I would accept. We aren't living together - and we may never live together - we are making this a relationship that works for us. It doesn't have to follow societies rules - unless you want it too.

Hope this helps and good luck out there!

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Thanks, JKT!  The person I was crazy about decided to change some things in his life to make it work with me.  We're spending weekends together -- looks like maybe a few times a month (we're somewhat long distance) and talk on the phone/text every day. We both had full lives before meeting and neither of us is dropping that. 

I still have some excitement and I think that's contributing to some insomnia.  But overall, I feel pretty sane.  I haven't lost interest in my other friends and activities, which seems like a really good sign.  When I'm "hooked" on someone, everything else in my life becomes unimportant. 

We're learning about each other without the oversharing gut spilling from my past.  No late night phone calls that disrupt sleep.  But a whole lot of emotional and other honesty about what's happening in the present moment.  And I seem to be staying in the present pretty well.  Not worrying or fantasizing about what the future might hold.

We've had a few bumps in the road, with reactivity over misunderstandings.  Two, I guess, in the 2 months we've known each other.  These have actually worked to strengthen our intimacy and trust because we're both willing to look at our part in things and be non-defensive, treating each other & ourselves as equals without the old people pleasing.  Nothing's perfect, but I feel incredibly fortunate to have met him and it seems like a good start! Also VERY grateful for IFS therapy which is helping me heal my reactivity to him and anything else.  Thanks, all!

[MaxedOut]

Looking 2 B Free, I really like the part about bumps in the road. I anticipate that to be a major screening point for me. My ex wasn't abusive with misunderstandings or super reactive for the most part for the first few years, other than jealousy. But it also wasn't healthy usually and there usually wasn't repair. I think there are many people who struggle in these areas but all PDs have rd flags there and even folks who struggle the difference between someone who wants mutuality and reconnection is a good indicator.

JustKeepTrying, this bit "The best thing my therapist told me is that it will feel boring. I was confused but what I she meant was there would be no wide swing of emotions - no push or pull or excitement - just steady and patient" is good. I won't necessarily endorse "boredom" as good but the swings.

Part of my unpacking things is realizing my own patterns of being intrigued/interested in people where there is some "challenge" or a bit of a puzzle. The challenge may be benign but definitely a few darker things. And lovely people who are simply interested in me don't hook me the same way.

I think this is part my ADHD (the trait of loving puzzles/challenges works great in my career!) and part something about earning/impressing. Anyway, I don't have a challenging FOO history so it's not attraction to what you were raised with which has made it a bit less obvious as the things that create that pull vary a lot but I have been thinking about that and how I need to pay attention to it once I start dating.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I agree, Maxed Out.  The generic for a nice, intelligent, engaging person, without some extra tug at the heart, doesn't do it, no matter how good looking, promising, etc.  I heard an expert (psychologist specializing in relationships maybe?) once say we seek a partnership that adds some extra meaning to our lives - something like that. Don't remember the word.

But then I've also heard that a good arranged marriage can be just as wonderful a start to falling in love.  So I don't know about that.  Probably very different expectation between the two.

Gotta go!  Good luck to everyone trying it out ...