Friend Turning the Tables

[countrygirl]

Hi,

Well, I am posting a "new topic," but it's just another example of my usual topic:  Asymmetry in friendships.   

I just reread something Catothecat wrote in an earlier friendship post, about how she likes to think that her difficult friends "have it in them" to behave better.  I continue to feel this way, all evidence to the contrary.  I don't want to speak for Catothecat, but it seems she may be further along in accepting that it's not necessarily the case that some friends have it in them to behave better.

With one friend in particular, I always get fooled or allow myself to be fooled, by what seems like warmth.  Then I am surprised when, yet again, she doesn't step up to the plate.  We were supposed to talk tonight, which I was really looking forward to because I've been down about a physical issue. When we spoke briefly this afternoon, i told her exactly why I was discouraged, and she expressed surprise.  she was surprised, because I do keep a lot to myself.  But I did make it clear that I was looking forward to talking with her tonight.

But, then, she started talking about a ball game on TV.  She said she didn't know if it would be over by the time we were going to talk. I knew what that meant, so I just went ahead and asked if she wanted to skip our talk--this was literally just minutes after I'd told her how much I was looking forward to the talk, telling her that I thought it would be just the pick me up I could use.  Then she asked if she could text me.  I thought she meant instead of talking, but she meant that she would text me to let me know if the game was so good that she wouldn't be talking with me.

I should tell you that she has an app which allows her to look at the games the minute they are over.  So she could look at half of the game when we talked, take a break and talk with me, then see the rest of the game.  But doing that did not occur to her.

I started feeing so down that I actually said, "If you'd rather look at the game, that's fine."  She paused and then said, "Okay. Thank you."  I then said I would talk to her some other time, and she wished me a good evening. I managed to say "Bye." A minute after I hung up, she called back.  Like a naive idiot, I thought she was calling to apologize. LOL!  She was really angry!  She accused me of hanging up on her.  I calmly said that no, I had said "Bye."  She angrily said she'd wished me a good night and then she heard a clock.  Believe me, I am not the sort of person who hangs up on people, and I have never hung up on her!  I repeated that I had not hung up on her.  She said she would talk to me later, even though she wouldn't, of course, and I again said "Bye."

So, she chooses a game over talking to her slightly despairing closest friend (Ha.), then calls the friend up and attempts to turn the tables.  SHE did nothing wrong;  I did!

Do you think I should discuss this with her when we do next talk?  Or should I just let it go?  I can't change her.  And to Catothecat's point:  Does this person know how to behave, but just chose not to?  I can't believe I'm even asking if I should discuss this with her.  She's just really not there for me.

[Catothecat]

The fact that she immediately called you back after you hung up and then accused you of being rude to her seems to indicate that she absolutely knew what she did and felt guilty enough about it to try to make you feel bad (i.e., "look what you did to ME and let's not look at what I did to YOU"...)  She was projecting and gaslighting and all that good stuff but what's hard to answer is, what level of "knowledge" does she have about what happened?

There's a difference between knowing and understanding, and it seems to me most people don't try to understand themselves even as they're aware of their bad behavior.  Since they never try to understand why they do what they do, they just keep doing it and leave it to the recipients of their behavior to sort it out. So, I seriously doubt she'd be receptive to any discussion of her behavior.  It seems this has been an ongoing pattern, which indicates it's fairly entrenched.  Her seemingly superficial empathetic behavior is there to cover her bases but anything more she isn't going to do.  Is she really capable of taking the next step?

I have an old friend who it took me decades to finally understand. She can show warmth and even compassion, but she has an odd tendency to let friendships go as soon as the other person is no longer useful to her.  This behavior of discarding while at the same time giving expressions of what seem like genuine friendship has long puzzled me until I finally looked at the bigger picture.  When I did, I realized she has a life attitude of taking advantage of what she can, when she can.  If something comes along and she can take advantage of it, right or wrong, she does so. Conversely, she is also on a hair trigger for others taking advantage of her.  This is just how she views the world, so it now doesn't surprise me when she seems to apply this view to her relationships.  If she can take advantage of you for whatever reason, why shouldn't she?  Any expectations on your part aren't considered.  Giving always goes hand-in-hand with taking. She knows what she does but doesn't see it as a problem and I know I could never tell her it is.

I guess it comes down to--how much do you want this friend in your life?  You risk losing her by telling her how you feel about what she did (and does).  My solution to dealing with friends like this is to alter my behavior around them to keep it in sync with what I can and cannot expect from them.  I'm not interested in being hurt by putting myself out there for friends who won't or can't reciprocate.  Unless their behavior is deliberately malicious or hurtful, I let it go.  Not easy, but I've never found good alternatives unless I just entirely let go of the friendship (and I've done that in the past usually with no regrets, I've found).

[Rebel13]

Hi countrygirl,

Unfortunately, I don't have much constructive to contribute, but lots of commiseration and empathy. I have a terrible picker when it comes to friends -- I pick self-absorbed people or covert narcissists over and over. So I know that sinking feeling in the gut when the bad behavior comes out. That feeling of being hit out of nowhere, like, "Wait, what is happening? Why is this happening? What did I do wrong?" It's awful, confusing and exhausting.

Over time, I've started to act pretty much like Catothecat describes:

My solution to dealing with friends like this is to alter my behavior around them to keep it in sync with what I can and cannot expect from them.  I'm not interested in being hurt by putting myself out there for friends who won't or can't reciprocate.  Unless their behavior is deliberately malicious or hurtful, I let it go.  Not easy, but I've never found good alternatives unless I just entirely let go of the friendship (and I've done that in the past usually with no regrets, I've found).

I don't know if it's because I don't have good conflict resolution skills (perfectly possible), or other people don't, or some combination -- but I've rarely been willing or able to discuss friendship conflicts and get to an increased level of closeness and understanding. So I either let go of the behavior and adjust myself and my expectations, or I end the friendship -- in the past often dramatically, now through the "slow fade" method.

I'm also trying to value simple interactions with strangers/coworkers more, and get my need to feel seen and valued that way, by being warm and pleasant and generous, giving compliments, helping where I can, etc. I posted an article about these micro-interactions the other day and BreatheDeep wrote a really nice interpretation of it. I don't know if that would help you, when you are having difficulty with some of your more intimate connections?

Wishing you luck with this, and if you get to a good resolution, I hope you will post here so I can learn how to do it!

[countrygirl]

Hi Catothecat and Rebel13,

And thank you for your thoughtful replies.

You are both so articulate!  As I read your thoughtful posts, I realize that I do not put enough THOuGHT into what happens in my difficult relationships.  Instead, I allow myself to be swept along on the river of my feelings, as it floods right past my stranded brain. 

I thought about the distinction Catothecat made between knowing and understanding.  I believe this friend knows what she is doing, but does not understand why, and has no interest in learning.  If she cared about other people, she would attempt to understand and try to change. But I suspect she is a lot like Catothecat's friend who takes advantage of people, but who has a hair trigger response if she detects anyone trying to take advantage of her. 

I very much like the idea of stepping back and looking at the bigger picture with people.  A friend has told me that he's long felt that every person has their own story, and if you discover that story you know how to deal with them. (He used to be an actor, and I bet that helped him get to know characters.)  At any rate, he has long said that this friend's story is that everybody is out to take advantage of her!  So he would say that her story and Catothecat friends' story are the same:  Take advantage when they can.  Perhaps they have the hair trigger response  to other staking advantage, because that is how they operate in the world

I like your idea of having good interactions with strangers, coworkers, maybe professionals in your everyday life, Rebel13, so that you can have enriching healthy give and take in life.  I also enjoy this, and have made a couple of fiends that way.  I have a chronic condition, and have become friends, over the years with my doctor's former secretary--who wanted to remain in contact after she retired--and with his current secretary.  We are each very different sorts of people in some ways, but we all ike to have a good laugh.  And now I have a new doctor, who is just so warm, intelligent and funny  I don't know if we will become friends, because of the whole professional boundaries, but I actually look forward to appointments these days.   

I look forward to reading the micro-actions article.

In short, I am going to approach this friendship more thoughtfully.  I do indeed need to think about who she is, and stop expecting her to act as if she really is someone else, as if she "has it in her" to be better.  She doesn't. I've never seen or heard of her showing the least inclination to change.  In fact, the coda to this particular exchange was that she called me the next day and acted as if nothing had happened.  I went along with it, because it was easier.  There have been plenty of times when I have confronted her, and it has only resulted in her trying to turn the tables. In a sense, her behavior is simple; I just have to accept that she's not going to change, and then decide whether I can deal with her. Thank you both so much for your input.

 

[Adria]

Countrygirl,

I'm currently dealing with the same situation.  A friend I've known since grade school. Lately, I've been watching people and patterns. She only calls when she wants something or wants to see if I will still pick up.  For me, I think watching this over the years has shown me with her it's about control.  Lately I have no patience for her antics and have decided to let her go.  The cat and mouse games are more than I care to deal with the older I get.  I think these people know exactly what they are doing. They want the upper hand. By playing these phone games, they can control our emotions and it gives them power. The way, lately, I have learned that this is about control, is I quit answering her texts and phone calls, and she has been absolutely blowing my phone up to the point I had to block her.  I've given her many chances over the years to be reciprocating and kind, to no avail. 

When everytime you hang up with someone, you wonder if you said something wrong, did something wrong, or are always wondering if the remark they made was a jab or an accident, for me, it's time to be done.  I guess it's an age thing, because before I always made excuses and let it go. But, not anymore. I'm just done. 

I wish you the best with your friend.

[countrygirl]

Hi Adria,

Thank you for your reply.  I can hear how done you are with this friend. Although I haven't reached that point yet, perhaps it will happen one day. It's happened for me before.

Take care. I admire you for knowing when you'd had enough.

[Rebel13]

I do indeed need to think about who she is, and stop expecting her to act as if she really is someone else, as if she "has it in her" to be better.  She doesn't. I've never seen or heard of her showing the least inclination to change. 
 

This is so true of me and my difficult friend as well. Some days I do really well with this, and other days I fall back into the frustration and lack of understanding.

I'm wondering, countrygirl, if you are kind of a problem solver? I realized after a while that with my friend, my own sense of growth mindset and what have you were so strong, that I couldn't understand why someone wouldn't take action to improve their life, in even a small way. But as you and Catothecat both said, a lot of people just don't put much effort into thinking about why they do things and how they could be improved. I'm continually forgetting this with my friend, and having to remind myself that she is content on some level with how things are for her and is not motivated to change despite feeling bad and complaining about things.

I also think it's perfectly fine to get distance from people -- let calls go to voicemail, for example, if it's not a good day for that interaction. I have to manage how much I invest because I really don't like relationships to get to the point where they feel unbalanced and I feel like I'm wanting more or doing more, while the other person isn't. Some days I feel generous and have more to give, and other times I pull back and make more distance, and I really think that's OK for us to do.

[GoodPesto]

Hi countrygirl,

a lot of good advice and analysis of the situation has been given. I wanted to add one aspect that stuck out to me that I hope you find useful to look at.

I started feeing so down that I actually said, "If you'd rather look at the game, that's fine."  She paused and then said, "Okay. Thank you."

It's understandable why you ended up saying this. And I am aware it's not meant literally and sensitive people would probably pick up on it. But: When I read your post and came to this point, I thought that this is where you were abandoning yourself a little.
Because it was not ok to prefer looking at the game instead of talking to you. Like you said it was after you had opened up and shared it would be important to you to talk to her. As well by saying this you side with her by attempting to make her feel ok about her bad move while feeling down yourself instead of defending your need to talk.

Sharing this because I hope it might help.

[countrygirl]

Hi Rebe13 and GoodPesto,

Thank you for your posts!  All the suggestions here have been very helpful, and it is also interesting to read how everyone approaches difficult friendships. 

I don't know if I am a problem solver, Rebe1l3, but it does strike me that I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what is going on with difficult people. And I think this is probably true for the majority of people on the forum. However, I don't think they spend much, if any, time thinking about the friendship and how they might help things become more rewarding for of us.  And I guess it's because they are getting what they want, and don't care whether we are happy.

This ties in with your observation, GoodPesto, about my asking my friend if she'd rather watch the game than talk with me.  I did indeed abandon myself a little when I did this.  What I was feeling at the time was that it was a hopeless situation, so she might as well watch the game, since that's clearly what she preferred to do. However, instead of posing that as a question, I could have said:  "You could take break from the game for twenty minutes, I would really appreciate taking with you, because I am worried."  Then I could have pointed out that she could go back right to the game on the app. Instead, I did throw in the towel. 

I've also been thinking about something a friend's father always said to her:  That you don't need an etiquette manual to learn good manners; good manners arise naturally from thinking about the other person.  My friend doens't think about me enough. (Don't get me wrong. I don't want someone to fixate on me; but civility and some empathy would be nice.)

By the way, I talked with a long distance friend today, who was very supportive, about this and about some things I'm working on.  And of course I listened to her "stories" too. It was a normal give and take.  What a relief!  My difficult friend is perhaps a more interesting person, but her behavior is a lot.

[Catothecat]

Countrygirl--I really like what your actor friend said about knowing a person's "story" will inform you on how to deal with them.  Except often it's not just the factual story you need to know, rather the story they're telling themselves.  I have several friends who, to me, had dysfunctional childhoods with toxic parents, yet to hear them talk "factually," they had the best parents in the world and everything was mostly fine all the time.  If it wasn't for the little details that come out now and again, I'd probably take the story they tell at face value.  However, I think you can connect enough dots to see how their "story," whatever it is, informs their lives and governs their behavior.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said your friend is probably getting what she wants from the friendship so feels no reason to do anything different.  And she may be at a point in life where she's incapable of doing anything different. 

I once read an article, I believe in Psychology Today, that stated there are people who simply cannot be introspective.  Their brains or their psychological makeup doesn't allow for it.  I don't know how true that is, but it seems to apply to people I know and have known who genuinely don't seem to "think about things" and are, rather, always in reactive mode.  They could actually have the ability for introspection but have turned that ability off. 

And while it gets tiresome to feel we have to always be the ones to "understand," why can't the other person do a little heavy lifting once and awhile, etc. it's a learning process that's well worthwhile and never, ever a truly wasted effort (even if it often feels that way). 

[countrygirl]

Hi Catothecat!

Yes, my actor friend thinks that people do all have a story they keep telling themselves and keep manifesting in their lives.  But YOU raise a really good point:  Sometimes the story they're telling themselves is not the true story. 

It is also fascinating that some people's brains do not allow them to be introspective. Or their personalities, as you say.  The friend I've written about here was abused by her father, but can't really allow herself to work out what that has meant for her life. And she admits that. I have granted her a huge amount of leeway because of this trauma, and always try to factor it in when thinking about her behavior.  But I am worn out from doing this for many years.

I almost hesitate to post this, but last night she wanted to rearrange talking again, because of another game.  I agreed, and then she asked if we could talk another time, because she hadn't talked to her sister, who'd attended the game (!), so she needed to rearrange things to accommodate her. At first, hearing GoodPesto say I'd abandoned myself a little when I agreed to her schedule before, I told her that she'd just asked me to rearrange my schedule, which I'd agreed to do, and then she'd wanted to drop the call completely for her sister.  So we left it that we would talk, but I could tell she was ticked off about it. 

Upon reflection, I decided I didn't want to talk to her, so I wrote her today and said she should talk to her sister and watch the game.  She thanked me and asked about my physical problem.  I told her, honestly, that I was worried because there had been no improvement  after  four painful procedures, over a period of months.  She said, you don't know that future procedures won't bring improvement. Well, of course I don't.  I replied that of course I would continue treatment, and that I'm very good at keeping my spirits up (doctor  has noted this), but that this is what I'm dealing with now. It is concerning, because it's my eyesight!  Oh, and I forgot to say that she ended the previous text by saying she was listening to a podcast by a writer.  I read constantly, which is one reason I am so concerned about my eyesight--can't do a lot of what I used to do because my back is so bad--but why throw that detail in.  It was as if she had to put the focus on something else. (Focus,sight.)  Don't get me wrong, I am very much a glad is half full person, but sometimes, one just does feel a little down, and would hope one could turn to one's friends; I guess NOT this friend!  LOL!

Meanwhile, not that Im so wonderful, but I've been hearing about her strained calf muscle for months, and have provided emotional and practical support--I know a lot about leg injuries from a lifetime with horses. This friendship is very asymmetrical, to say the least!

Oh, and the story she tells herself is that she's a poor girl who hasn't had the advantages other have had.  But the more I have heard about her life, it was a lot more privileged than she wants you to believe.  Another part of the story is that since she didn't have it as well as everyone else, they owe her everything.  A friend who met her  said, "She has a chip on her shoulder."  And she does.  In actuality, everyone, from her mom to her college professors to me and others have helped her out a lot, because we believed her story.  I do feel empathy for what happened with her father of course.  But she lets you know that almost immediately too.  So, the world owes her, but she doens't accept any responsibility for anyone else.

[Catothecat]

Well, at least she's being upfront about wanting to watch the game and wanting to talk with her sister! That's something, I guess.

And this just in!  Speaking of my friend who takes advantage, I was talking with her the other day and she told me her cousin had recently died.  She's been talking about this cousin for a couple years now, since the cousin moved back to this area to go into an assisted living facility. They would talk regularly, until the cousin developed dementia.  I was even with her one time when the cousin called.  Anyway, she told me about this cousin's disease which is rare and because further investigation is needed about this disease, the cousin even testified before Congress about the need for funding for research.  Okay.  I asked my friend, what's her disease?  Friend said, I dunno.

There it is, in a nutshell.  She cherry picked info she found interesting, but nothing further.  She can tell you in great detail what happened on a tv show she watched, but when it comes to relationships, she only hears what she finds interesting and tunes out the rest.  She can't be bothered.

Looking at the friendship as a glass half full is probably the best approach when it comes to people like this. 

And I hope things go well for your eye treatments.  I have a husband with chronic eye issues and I know how worrying that can be.

[countrygirl]

Hi Catothecat,

That is some story about your friend.  It's very dramatic that her cousin testified before Congress, but then she doesn't even know the name of the disease!  She really does cherrypick. If you ever find out the name, I'd be interested to hear. 

Also, she doesn't sound interested in relationships themselves, but just in what she can get out of them.  This generally doesn't mean that the person is going to be a good friend, as we know.

Just as this friend can tell you the plot of a TV series, my friend can tell you the plot of series, films and books--to the point, as a matter of fact, that I often have to tell her not to tell me the complete plot, because I might want to read or watch it for myself!  It strikes me once again that her M.O. is very self-motivated; it's all about her telling you the blow-by-blow account; it doesn't occur to her that she might be spoiling it for you!

Nor is she interested in relationships, nor much in psychology, even though she likes films and novels, which are so often powered by psychology. She really does not want to look at herself. 

A hot-off-the-press update regarding this friend is that she called to tell me she'd thrown her back out for the first time.  She knew to call me, because I have a chronically bad back.  I was happy to give her advice and sympathy, of course, but it did strike me that when she needs something, she feels free to call.

I am sorry to hear that your husband has chronic eye issues. I just started on this "journey" a few months ago. Fortunately, I really like my doctor, so far.  In fact, though, I think one reason I like her so much is that she's warm and empathic.  Of course I assume anyone would like that in a doctor, but for me it's become so rare to be around warmth that even professional warmth is much appreciated!

 Just as I also try to look at these difficult friendships as being half full, I try to look at my health the same way.  And often think of Twain's quip:  "Consider the alternative."  Some days I succeed at this more than others. Best of luck to both you and your husband as you deal with the eye issues.  I always thought I wouldn't be able to bear a bad problem with the eyes, but I am.  What choice is there?  Let me know if you'd ever like to exchange information, although I'm sure you know much more than I do right now. 

[Catothecat]

Thanks for the offer of an information exchange, countrygirl!  My husband has long standing issues with glaucoma, I think your condition is something different.  But thanks again!  I really appreciate it.

When I think of it, yes, friends like we're discussing just regard friendships as someone they can get something from.  If they don't find anything they want, they lose interest.  I've come to realize that if I tell my friend some entertaining bs (make it like a tv show) it doesn't matter if it's bs--she'll be all ears and I'll have her complete attention.  It's depressing to realize that's how she is, but that's how she is.  She also doesn't like movies or tv shows about relationships or anything overtly psychologically driven. She sticks to sci-fi, super heroes, "reality" tv (so she can see some outrageous antics), or home and garden type shows.  Anything that veers too close to unpleasant reality she avoids. Need I say that as long as I've known her (since our early 20s) she's never dated let alone married or had kids. She avoids close personal entanglements and it took me a long while before I realized that attitude also applies to friendships.  In this case, I've been the one to disregard what was going on in front of me.  I set myself up because I wanted to believe we had an actual friendship.  I had evidence time and again that wasn't the case, but I disregarded it until I no longer could.  Talk about a learning curve...

So, no surprise your friend is seeking you out because she has some physical issues.  She knows whose ear will listen!

Take care (as I know you do).

[walking on broken glass]

Late to the party here! Such an interesting discussion and so many good points made here.

I am really sorry, country girl, about your eyesight problems. It must be very upsetting and of course you want to talk about it with your friends. I hope you see improvement very very soon!

While reading your story, one thing stood out to me: I got the impression that you don't really like your friend. I am sure there are aspects of her you do like, but the emotions I got from you here are anger, frustration and resentment. You mentioned her difficult family story twice as extenuating circumstances and a justification for her behaviour. But I wonder, does this matter so much if her behaviour to you is hurtful? And also, isn't this exactly what we tend to do with our PD people in our lives? Give them the benefit of the doubt and put up with bad and difficult behaviour? I wonder if you are repeating a pattern here.

I don't mean to say that this person shouldn't be your friend or that you should cut off contact with her. But maybe you can dilute the contact a bit and lower your expectations, especially at times of stress and anxiety. You know she won't give you what you want, so maybe you should give up asking and turn to people who can provide that. Not as a form of resentful resignation or to see if she will adjust her behaviour, but as a conscious, emotionally mature decision that this person is not good at times of crisis. I agree with Good Pesto that saying 'fine' but stewing inside is bad for you in the long run and it is good that later you tried to stand up for yourself by pointing out to your friend how she has disappointed you twice. What would you have liked her reaction to be there? Wouldn't you have wanted her to apologize, accept responsibility and say she will do better? What did she do instead? She got frustrated and didn't have a response. This shows you that you can't expect her to meet you at the level you are at. The more you try, the more disappointed and frustrated you will get.

[countrygirl]

Hi Catothecat and walkingonbrokenglass, 

Thank you for your replies!

Catothecat, you always seem to see exactly what is going on in your friendships. Maybe you are somewhat like me, in that you give your friends the benefit of the doubt until it is impossible not to see the reality.  You seem like an intelligent, attentive person and I would bet that most of your friends feel very closet to you, but their limited way of relating is not your way.  It is difficult to meet people when we are older, so sometimes we try to make the friendships work, or learn to adapt to them, as you've discussed before.  This particular friend does not seem like someone who wants closeness, I would have to say.  The friend I'm discussing here is also a loner, to some extent.

I am sorry to hear about your husband's glaucoma.  You are correct, I have a different problem, retina disease. Best wishes to both of you, because when one spouse has an issue, the other one does too, to state the obvious.

walkingonbrokenglass, I actually love this friend, but it is also true that she's frayed my last nerve! There are other difficult friends that I could back away from, but not this one.  And, get this, over the past few days, she has had horrible back pain, and has been asking me for advice, because my own back is shot, and has been for a long time. She has an appointment to see her doctor, but can't get in for q while.  It is ironic that some of what I've been writing about here is her lack of support and empathy during my physical issues, and now she has one and reaches out to me immediately.  By the way, I absolutely agree that she can't meet me where I am, so to speak in terms of what I like to be able to share with others.  She sounds a lot like Catothecat's friend, the one she described above, at least in this way, and in that she's a loner. I don't think her trauma excuses her behavior, but it does help explain it. With this person, I have often wondered whether the bad outweighs the good, but still haven't felt that it does.  However, I should stop expecting her to act as if she's very empathetic, because she's not, as least not consistently. You are correct that I should stop expecting that from her, and as I write this, she's going to call  in a bit to tell me whether her doctor agreed to write some scripts for her, to tide her over until the appointment.