HELP

[Mad Dog]

I am in need of some serious help/advice. I have been married for 50 yrs. Once again, self doubt and uncertainty has raised it's ugly head and I am looking for insight from members. I am a recovering alcoholic, sober 30 yrs. I grew up in a stable, loving family with 4 siblings. My wife grew up with 1 sibling. Her mom was very passive and her dad was an alcholic and verbally abusive to some degree. For years I felt something was wrong with me in my relationship with my wife. I sought therapy and when my wife asked why I simply replied I'm tryying to become a better person. After several sessions, during which the therapist encouraged me to have my wife attend, my wife finally went for 1 visit. At that time, my wife had prepared a 2 page statement which she insisted on reading, even though the therapist asked that she put it aside and we could just talk. My wife refused, read her statement and had nothing more to say. I continued working with the therapist for several more visits and then we mutually ended as she felt we had nothing more to explore. I felt unfilled and life went on. Several years later things become problematic/difficult in our relationship and I again sought therapy. The original therapist retired so I sought out another therapist with recommendations from friends. I started with Therapist A, and naturally I had to start over again. She recommended my wife come in and I stated that she probably would not. After several sessions my wife wanted to know why I was going to therapy and I simply stated I was working on becoming a better person. She stated she needed to go "to find out what lies I was telling the therapist." The first session was again a 2 page statement from my wife wihich she again refused to set aside and talk. She finally decided to talk with the therapist. After several couple's sessions during which I mostly listened because my wife would talk non stop. I was careful not to interrupt, interject, etc. When I wanted to speak, I would raise my hand and when the therapist aknowledge I could talk I did so. I was thrilled that we were finally in therapy! After several sessions Therapist a felt that we should be seperated during therapy and we should each have our own therapist. I whole heartedly agreed and I said I would find a therapist for myself. I was thrilled that my wife would finally agree to talk to a therapist. I found Therapist B. My wife and I both signed consents that Therapists A and B could talk with each other. It was also suggested that my wife and I begin couples therapy with a therapist who specialized in high conflict relationships and we agreed and consent was given by both my wife and I that all 3 therapist could consult freely regarding us for the best possible outcome. After 2 visits with Therapist C, the therapist inadvertently missed our scheduled appt. I called Therapist C who was in her other office. She was very apologetic and acknopwledge that our visit was on her calendar and that it was entirely her fault. My wife said she had enough and would not be going to any further therapy. I was devastated. I continued to work with Therapist B and expressed my frustration with the whole process. I received the standard response of I can't comment on your wife as I have never seen her but she would be happy to continue working with me. The next session she told me that one of her colleauges recommended the book "Stop walking on Eggshells". I read it and felt that this was my story and I found Out of the FOG. The rage I had experienced, the control, lack of trust, and the inability to have a meaningful conversation with my wife with out her escalating into anger and rage were all there. I found support, enlightenment, hope, and understanding on this site. I learned not to JADE, and things were okay as long as I stayed in my lane and applied what I learned. At one point I had contacted another therapist who specialized in BPD and had one session. Again I was met with I really need to work with both my wife and I. Several months ago I had a session with Therapist B to find out which colleague had recommended "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and she said it was Therapist C and she apoligized for not telling me at the time. I had told her about the missed visit with Therapist C and she was taken aback that this had happened. I felt that I at least had some closure, but my wife continues to be undiagnosed. 2 years ago I spoke with each of my adult, married daughters about the above (up until this point no one knew about the therapy). I recommended "Stop Walking on Eggshells" to each of my daughters. They all related to difficulties with their childhood. Last night my wife and I had an incident and once again I was the problem. She told me that Therapist A had told her that I lacked empathy. At this point I'm spiraling downward and question if I am the problem.
I am asking for imput for those in this forum. I will be scheduling a session with Therapist B (my therapist) to discuss what she discussed with therapist A and C. I am also contemplating scheduling a session with Therapist A to seek clarification regarding my lack of empathy and her input regarding my wife and I as she is the only one that has worked with both of us..
I am really looking forward to some input from the members. PLEASE HELP!

[square]

Hey there,

That all sounds very difficult.

I want to commend you on a number of things. 30 years of sobriety is a big deal, good for you. I also think you have handled therapy well, such as telling your wife that you're looking to become a better person, and doing a lot of listening in joint sessions.

Reading your post, I'm wondering if you are hoping that the therapy might lead to change in your wife's behavior. It seems that it is unlikely for therapy to do this. People with BPD do sometimes feel more supported in therapy and may reduce their "crisis events" such as self harm and other types of crises. However, they are not in therapy to learn how to treat their loved ones better - but just to feel more supported (by the therapist).

The ideas that are entrenched in personality disorders, such as "you are responsible for helping me" or "you are the one who is making me feel this way/react this way" don't actually change.

There is a benefit to your work, though. You can become more aware of your own choices and behaviors. You can own what is yours and learn to leave what is not yours. Sometimes this work can lead to somewhat less conflict. Sometimes it doesn't, but the benefit to you would still remain.

When I read the same book you read, I had hope that what was going on could finally be named and something could be done to help. Fortunately, I managed to avoid mentioning this idea, I never brought up personality disorders. It's easy for people to think "now that we know what is wrong, we can fix it." But personality disordered people overwhelmingly do not see it that way, at all. (Again, BPD people do often feel supported in therapy, but again, they are there to get support for themselves, not to learn how to treat people better). If you have some hope that someone will diagnose your wife and then help her to improve her relationship with you, let's just say that's not a common outcome.

I've been here for years and have seen a lot of people (myself included) grow as people and learn how to set boundaries (they are NOT to control others, only ourselves) and make mental shifts to own what is ours and free ourselves from what isn't. So I invite you to read around and post and get support. The forum is a bit slower these days and responses may be slow, but people are still here. Feel free to search, or just browse through the threads - I found it quite helpful to read other people's stories and see commonalities, and see things that worked and things that might be better avoided.

[bloomie]

Hi, Mad Dog. I hope you are okay with me moving your post to this board. The Questions Board is for more technical/how to type questions and I wanted to make sure your post had a better chance of folks seeing it and responding.

I am another who wants to applaud your decades of sobriety along with your efforts to work on yourself and attempt to understand and gain tools and insights to better both of your lives. I also think it is important that you were able to talk this through with your daughters and offer them a resource that was helpful and illuminating for you. There is confirmation in their shared view and experiences with your wife/their mom.

I have been married a very long time... not quite as long as you, but close enough. We have had marital counseling, therapy - joint and separately more times than I can count. I have done all of the things - books, vids, mentoring, prayer... I mean all of the things.

You want to know how much those things have moved the needle and brought even a reasonable amount of change and self awareness over time in my diagnosed avoidant, major depressive disordered, vulnerable narcissist H? None. Because they require an ability for both people to meet and agree, cooperate and sustain reciprocity and communicate respectfully. They require a capacity and emotional maturity my own H does not have. Not an excuse at all, but a place of reality and healthy acceptance for me that was a long time coming.

From there I have chosen to stay and I have stopped doing the work that belongs to both of us all on my own - which it seems you may have been doing? I have grieved what I think of as the 'unlived' parts of my life while valuing the family we share and deep friendship circle we are part of. I have slowly begun to build a life that does not require his approval or participation while still maintaining family events and traditions that are meaningful to me/our children/grandchildren.

Unless a miracle happens in my own relationship - my own H will cycle through dysregulation, depression, acting out and so much more with me consistently the reason he struggles. The difference now is I have developed boundaries around verbal tirades and acting out and I remove myself every single time. I always have a way of escape and a plan. Is it ideal and what I would ever choose for my life? No, and yet I am able to maintain the relationships that are truly everything to me and that is what I have weighed in my own decision. I no longer stand at the 'door' waiting for significant change in him. I am still learning, but focusing on my own health and wellbeing.

In terms of therapy... I have experienced the monologuing you describe and the long laundry list of my wrongdoings as I sat, fairly ignored, with a vulnerable and compelling person in more than one psychologist's office. My own H seems to enjoy talking about himself to a therapist and often comes home more empowered and validated in 'all he is going through' with me mistreating him narrative, because like square says he is fully and compassionately supported. I no longer spend my limited time and energy there with him.

Your situation is unique and only you know what is the best and right next thing for you and your family, I would just suggest shifting the focus to you and your wellbeing, learning to set and hold standards and boundaries the are in line with your character and values and keep coming back for support as you are able!

[1footouttadefog]

A diagnosis is not needed to know of your wife has traits and habits and uses the coping mechanisms of a cluster B personality disordered person.

What is important is to know that there is abuse in the relationship and to address that .  You can work on your part of any of it then use the tools to manage the rest. 

100 traits list on this website and the toolbox. 

If in the end it's more than you choose to live with you can make changes.

And it does not have to be an all or nothing.  You might be able to have a working arrangement within the home where you live like roommates or such. 

I remember when I made a room for myself in the basement. It started with a recliner a end table a lamp and a book shelf.  Later I put a dresser and a TV.  I later added a stereo. Just having a place to read, use the internet and watch TV or listen to music of my own choosing was awesome
 To go take a power nap was amazing.  To put a bag of popcorn or  cheetos in the dresser drawer and not feel rushed to eat them before a dirty hand was in the bag over and over instead of using a bowl.  To find my hand lotion on the end table where I left it. 

It was amazing.

I had been sleeping on the couch due to being sleep deprived by noise and cover stealing and pillow stealing and living chen noise from snacks and and and.  I eventually put a bed in that room and slept there.  I was never asked about it. 

I started living separate and this has made it bearable.  I have my own church life and hobbies away from the house. 

I make sure he is cared for but have a separate life for the most part.