Actually having to say you have decided to go NC...

[SnugglyHedgehog]

Some of you may have seen my other post the other day. My NM turned up at the door again, said she didn't understand why I was being like this and gave some of my stuff back and asked for some of theirs.

I have been NC for over 2 years now. She just turns up at the door now and again.

I knew I was going to have to ask her not to (again) so while breaking NC anyway I asked for something of my child's back because it's not replaceable. This was on Sunday and she badgered me all day and I didn't reply.

On Tuesday I messaged to arrange a day. Told her I wasn't ready to discuss our relationship and asked for more space.

I know that NC is the only route forward. If she doesn't understand or see the abuse years down the line she isn't ever going to. And I know that.

But...I never intended on announcing NC. If you have had to, what did you say?

I kind of thought I had made it clear I didn't want a relationship with her, but apparently not clear enough. My partner says the only way this is going to end is if I come out and say it.

She finally replied to my message this morning and it wasn't pretty. She brought my child into it, etc. It's basically baiting me to bite. I'm not going to though. My partner is due to collect my stuff today. Hopefully the only item I am actually bothered about is there.

Something else that came up on my other thread was that she part owns my house. She has actually said she wants me to sell which surprised me because in her eyes that will be the last bit of control and thing she can hold over me.

But that leads to my next question...do I say something now or do I wait until the house is fully ours so that nothing can backfire?

Any advice, thoughts, experience and hugs are appreciated right now. I feel shaky and anxious.

Thank you

SH

[Concerned One]

That you are staying away for your own self protection or until healing is complete.

That's what i told my distant cousin to pass on to my parents who are trying to break down my barriers.

[DetachedAndEngaged]

In general I believe in openness and honesty, but when it comes to PDs I've learned to be calculating.

Co-owning a house is a major financial entanglement and changing that situation with a PD seems like something to urgently prioritize.

I'd suggest keeping your honest thoughts and opinions to yourself until that business is completely transacted. Until then, your mom has enormous financial leverage she can wield.

My observation is that PDs will do things out of spite and vengeance even if they harm themselves in the process; that includes finances.

[TwentyTwenty]

IMO, contacting someone asking to set a date to get some things back is not NC.

So, again, IMO you may be sending mixed messages that you still desire some level of contact.

I'll tell you a great way to find out if you are really no contact or not:

Next time that she shows up, don't answer the door and call the police for trespassing and harassment. If she tells the police you never told her to not visit, and in fact you offered to make a date to meet, then there is your answer.

I told my parents to stop stalking me, harassing me and if they continued that I'd have them arrested. I then had a lawyer send them all cease and desist orders to keep away.

End of the drama, life has been peaceful and happy ever since. And really NC.

[blues_cruise]

But...I never intended on announcing NC. If you have had to, what did you say?

I kind of thought I had made it clear I didn't want a relationship with her, but apparently not clear enough. My partner says the only way this is going to end is if I come out and say it.

My experience when it comes to NPD is that my father lives in a fantasy world where he plays out the delusion of him being a great parent. He completely bypasses the reality of me blatantly not wanting to be in contact with him because he will do anything not to have to face any damage to his ego or acknowledge the long buried trauma that drives his personality disorder. Unfortunately for him, I won't enable him in this anymore. Taking responsibility for his behaviour and the necessary steps to improve it is the only way we could ever have a father/daughter relationship. Unfortunately for me, I think pigs will fly before this ever happens. A catch-22: he wants the status quo of abuser/scapegoat to return, whereas I want a healthy connection based on mutual respect. I would hazard a guess that logically your NM knows exactly why you want no contact but isn't prepared to put the work in to improve the situation, plus doesn't like the fact that you are saying a firm "no" to any further abuse. Instead she plays the victim and perhaps even convinces herself that she hasn't abused you. People with NPD self sabotage like this constantly because relationships are based on give and take, but due to their overinflated sense of self it's only the 'take' that they're interested in.

I never announced no contact to NF because I knew it would trigger a huge, unpredictable rage response. No contact was a really painful but necessary decision and I couldn't deal with the full fallout of his anger all at once. It was far less damaging to my fragile nervous system  to ease off contact gently and deal with him acting dumbfounded, with the odd flying monkey and love bomb arriving now and again rather than being hurled at me all at once. If you do officially tell your NM that you no longer want to be in contact I think you have to be prepared for the likelihood that she won't accept it and will make life very difficult. I have considered it from time to time, mostly when feeling down about it all and feeling like I owe him an explanation. All whilst forgetting what he's capable of, how manipulative and conniving he is and how he's always laughed in my face in the past if I've ever tried to show any kind of assertiveness. I've always come to the conclusion that actions speak louder than words, plus the written word can so easily be used against you. If you were to write a letter of no contact I would be very careful about how you word it as there is a big possibility this will be passed around to others and used against you in smear campaigns. You know your mother better than anyone so I ask you this, what is her reaction likely to be if no contact is formally announced and how will it impact you and your family? 

If you do decide to go ahead and tell her you don't want a relationship with her then I think it's enough to say that you feel you have been/are being mistreated and that you are not prepared to tolerate the abuse anymore. I wouldn't get bogged down in details as she's likely to continue to deny any wrongdoing. Self improvement comes with self enquiry and your NM really should be looking for the answers herself. As much as PD people would love others to believe it, adult children don't just cut a parent off for no reason whatsoever. If you treat someone horribly and then genuinely can't understand why they wouldn't want you in their life then there are some serious issues to be addressed there, preferably with a psychiatrist who is fully trained and experienced in treating personality disorders.

I agree with DetachedAndEngaged that prioritising sorting out the financials of the house should be of some urgency, particularly if she's saying that she wants you to sell. Hopefully most of this could be done in writing via solicitors with you not having to have much engagement with her. I think maybe dealing with one thing at a time could be easier in the long run. While she remains part owner of the house she has to  continue to have some presence in your life, even if just legally, so I would definitely look into severing that tie and making a clean break in that regard.

I'm sorry you're going through all this, I know how hard it is. Please try to take care of yourself as best as you can because every single interaction with her is probably firing your nervous system up and triggering a lot of anxiety.

[SnugglyHedgehog]

That you are staying away for your own self protection or until healing is complete.

That's what i told my distant cousin to pass on to my parents who are trying to break down my barriers.

Thank you.
To be honest I feel like I have to reply and say what I feel I would like to say once I'm ready and the financial situation is sorted out.
Then I know I'm not going to have regrets down the line or wish that I had stood up for myself, even knowing its falling on deaf ears. It's for me, not her.

[SnugglyHedgehog]

In general I believe in openness and honesty, but when it comes to PDs I've learned to be calculating.

Co-owning a house is a major financial entanglement and changing that situation with a PD seems like something to urgently prioritize.

I'd suggest keeping your honest thoughts and opinions to yourself until that business is completely transacted. Until then, your mom has enormous financial leverage she can wield.

My observation is that PDs will do things out of spite and vengeance even if they harm themselves in the process; that includes finances.

Thank you.
It is a big stress right now. I am phoning round and trying to get information on what our options are for getting her off of the house title and that kind of thing so that I am completely free.
You're right though. I will wait until we are secure before I say what I feel I need to. That takes the pressure off the right now too and I can look at the practical side.

[SnugglyHedgehog]

IMO, contacting someone asking to set a date to get some things back is not NC.

So, again, IMO you may be sending mixed messages that you still desire some level of contact.

I'll tell you a great way to find out if you are really no contact or not:

Next time that she shows up, don't answer the door and call the police for trespassing and harassment. If she tells the police you never told her to not visit, and in fact you offered to make a date to meet, then there is your answer.

I told my parents to stop stalking me, harassing me and if they continued that I'd have them arrested. I then had a lawyer send them all cease and desist orders to keep away.

End of the drama, life has been peaceful and happy ever since. And really NC.

I havent spoken to her in 27 months. I would class that as NC.
She showed up at my door and my partner dealt with it so that I didnt have to see her. Again, NC.
She did however ask him for something that he didn't know where it was.
I knew at that point that I was going to have to break NC and tell her that she could not show up here again. I told her the same thing over 2 years ago. She didn't listen. But she is effecting me mentally showing up here and it isnt going to get her anywhere.
In doing that I knew I would never get any of my things back that she has. Which is fine. But the irreplaceable item she has of my child's wasn't fine.
My partner said it was never going to end and was going to continue making me ill until I told her I have no intention of speaking to her again which I agreed with.
I contacted her once to ask for my child's items and a second time to give her a day and time that someone would collect.
I answered none of her messages in between and didn't go to her house to collect myself, someone did that for me.

Honestly...I find your reply insensitive. Because I requested something from her does not void the effort I have put in the past 2 years to protect myself. I am NC and will continue to be. I am completely secure in that decision.
There are zero mixed messages on my part. I do not answer messages on special occasions or whenever else she tries.
I'm sorry that you don't agree that I am "really" NC.
But given what I wrote about struggling today...maybe you could just have scrolled past rather than replying the way you have.

[SnugglyHedgehog]

But...I never intended on announcing NC. If you have had to, what did you say?

I kind of thought I had made it clear I didn't want a relationship with her, but apparently not clear enough. My partner says the only way this is going to end is if I come out and say it.

My experience when it comes to NPD is that my father lives in a fantasy world where he plays out the delusion of him being a great parent. He completely bypasses the reality of me blatantly not wanting to be in contact with him because he will do anything not to have to face any damage to his ego or acknowledge the long buried trauma that drives his personality disorder. Unfortunately for him, I won't enable him in this anymore. Taking responsibility for his behaviour and the necessary steps to improve it is the only way we could ever have a father/daughter relationship. Unfortunately for me, I think pigs will fly before this ever happens. A catch-22: he wants the status quo of abuser/scapegoat to return, whereas I want a healthy connection based on mutual respect. I would hazard a guess that logically your NM knows exactly why you want no contact but isn't prepared to put the work in to improve the situation, plus doesn't like the fact that you are saying a firm "no" to any further abuse. Instead she plays the victim and perhaps even convinces herself that she hasn't abused you. People with NPD self sabotage like this constantly because relationships are based on give and take, but due to their overinflated sense of self it's only the 'take' that they're interested in.

I never announced no contact to NF because I knew it would trigger a huge, unpredictable rage response. No contact was a really painful but necessary decision and I couldn't deal with the full fallout of his anger all at once. It was far less damaging to my fragile nervous system  to ease off contact gently and deal with him acting dumbfounded, with the odd flying monkey and love bomb arriving now and again rather than being hurled at me all at once. If you do officially tell your NM that you no longer want to be in contact I think you have to be prepared for the likelihood that she won't accept it and will make life very difficult. I have considered it from time to time, mostly when feeling down about it all and feeling like I owe him an explanation. All whilst forgetting what he's capable of, how manipulative and conniving he is and how he's always laughed in my face in the past if I've ever tried to show any kind of assertiveness. I've always come to the conclusion that actions speak louder than words, plus the written word can so easily be used against you. If you were to write a letter of no contact I would be very careful about how you word it as there is a big possibility this will be passed around to others and used against you in smear campaigns. You know your mother better than anyone so I ask you this, what is her reaction likely to be if no contact is formally announced and how will it impact you and your family? 

If you do decide to go ahead and tell her you don't want a relationship with her then I think it's enough to say that you feel you have been/are being mistreated and that you are not prepared to tolerate the abuse anymore. I wouldn't get bogged down in details as she's likely to continue to deny any wrongdoing. Self improvement comes with self enquiry and your NM really should be looking for the answers herself. As much as PD people would love others to believe it, adult children don't just cut a parent off for no reason whatsoever. If you treat someone horribly and then genuinely can't understand why they wouldn't want you in their life then there are some serious issues to be addressed there, preferably with a psychiatrist who is fully trained and experienced in treating personality disorders.

I agree with DetachedAndEngaged that prioritising sorting out the financials of the house should be of some urgency, particularly if she's saying that she wants you to sell. Hopefully most of this could be done in writing via solicitors with you not having to have much engagement with her. I think maybe dealing with one thing at a time could be easier in the long run. While she remains part owner of the house she has to  continue to have some presence in your life, even if just legally, so I would definitely look into severing that tie and making a clean break in that regard.

I'm sorry you're going through all this, I know how hard it is. Please try to take care of yourself as best as you can because every single interaction with her is probably firing your nervous system up and triggering a lot of anxiety.

blues_cruise...what you have said makes so much sense to me.

I do wonder if she sees it. But if she does you would never think it from that way she acts and the things she says. It is absolutely playing the victim though. She has such a horrible child who could hurt her this way. She doesn't understand how I could be this way. The things she said you would think this all came to a head 2 weeks ago...not 2 years ago. It is so difficult to wrap your head around.

I honestly had no intention of doing it. My initial thought was actually to have partial contact and lots of boundaries and then the next message came in and I just knew I couldn't do it. At that point I never replied again. I just went cold turkey. And it was hard because she took a lot of family members with her. But I stayed strong and I honestly am better for it. But her turning up here screws me up more than I care to admit. It just throws me off. She does it intentionally showing up unannounced so that she is in control of it and I'm on the back foot. But it's just not something I want to deal with.

I have some time to decide what I'm going to do or say if anything at all. But I dont think this will ever end if the words don't actually come out of my mouth. That is an interesting question. Honestly? I can't even predict her at all. Im surprised she wants me to look at selling the house to get her name off of it when that is some form of control and something she can hold over me. I guess realistically though the smear campaign already happened 2 years ago. I already lost my brother and my gran to the lies she told them. I still have no idea what they think is going on. So really if the house is sorted out, I actually have nothing left to lose, which feels really sad.

This whole thing came to a head in May 2018 because I confronted her about it. So she is well aware of what I have said. I dont want to say how I feel because obviously that isn't something she has taken on board.

I feel like I could have written a lot of what you've said myself. I actually asked her to self reflect at the start in the hope we could talk things through and move forward with her aware of how she was making me feel. Her response was to tell me that isn't ever something you should ask a parent to do and put me down for it.

I phoned round for advice about the house today and will start gathering info on our options and go from there.

Thank you for taking the time to sit and reply to everything I have said and your kind words. I honestly needed that today. Her message this morning brought my child into it and it just hit such a major sore spot for me and made me so anxious. I really appreciate you taking the time to reach out so thank you

[TwentyTwenty]

Sorry, we just probably have a different opinion on what NC really is, and the mental problems that can come from continuing harassment. I just don't understand this - if anyone is adversely, negatively affecting your mental health by harassing your family, and showing up after being told not to, then why do you continue to allow it? What if it was your neighbor? Or someone that followed you home from the grocer?

Sorry you're having a rough time with it, however her action is illegal and completely in your control to make it stop, 100%.

Maybe hiding in your own home is OK with you when the bullies keep showing up; that doesn't work here. That act alone is empowering the abuser to continue their same actions.

I stopped the abuser. Once and for all.

I'll keep my further thoughts to myself, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the topic. I hope you get thru this OK.

[SnugglyHedgehog]

Sorry, we just probably have a different opinion on what NC really is, and the mental problems that can come from continuing harassment. I just don't understand this - if anyone is adversely, negatively affecting your mental health by harassing your family, and showing up after being told not to, then why do you continue to allow it? What if it was your neighbor? Or someone that followed you home from the grocer?

Sorry you're having a rough time with it, however her action is illegal and completely in your control to make it stop, 100%.

Maybe hiding in your own home is OK with you when the bullies keep showing up; that doesn't work here. That act alone is empowering the abuser to continue their same actions.

I stopped the abuser. Once and for all.

I'll keep my further thoughts to myself, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the topic. I hope you get thru this OK.

To be fair if she was showing up on a weekly basis then yes I would have taken further action by now. But I'm not sure the police would class knocking on the door twice a year as harassment. And bear in mind I also stated in my original post that she legally owns half of my house....I dont have a leg to stand on with the police or trying to claim she is trespassing if she part owns the property.
Feel free to disagree. But please do not turn around to me and say I'm effectively not doing it right or up to some standard. When I have literally been isolated from my whole family by her and had no contact with anyone.
No contact means no contact whatsoever, I think we can agree there.
But if you had a child who you had literally tried to import something for because you cannot get it anywhere and that had then fallen through too. And if you were going to have to ask her to not turn up. Would you honestly not try and get that back before it all hits the fan?!
I did break NC if thats how you want to view it. For 2 messages. And it was a hugely difficult thing to do. But seeing my little one smile today at getting that back....I would do it again in a heartbeat for them. No other reason, only for what is best for them.

[M0009803]

Sorry, we just probably have a different opinion on what NC really is, and the mental problems that can come from continuing harassment. I just don’t understand this - if anyone is adversely, negatively affecting your mental health by harassing your family, and showing up after being told not to, then why do you continue to allow it? What if it was your neighbor? Or someone that followed you home from the grocer?

Sorry you’re having a rough time with it, however her action is illegal and completely in your control to make it stop, 100%.

Maybe hiding in your own home is OK with you when the bullies keep showing up; that doesn’t work here. That act alone is empowering the abuser to continue their same actions.

I stopped the abuser. Once and for all.

I’ll keep my further thoughts to myself, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the topic. I hope you get thru this OK.

To be fair if she was showing up on a weekly basis then yes I would have taken further action by now. But I'm not sure the police would class knocking on the door twice a year as harassment. And bear in mind I also stated in my original post that she legally owns half of my house....I dont have a leg to stand on with the police or trying to claim she is trespassing if she part owns the property.
Feel free to disagree. But please do not turn around to me and say I'm effectively not doing it right or up to some standard. When I have literally been isolated from my whole family by her and had no contact with anyone.
No contact means no contact whatsoever, I think we can agree there.
But if you had a child who you had literally tried to import something for because you cannot get it anywhere and that had then fallen through too. And if you were going to have to ask her to not turn up. Would you honestly not try and get that back before it all hits the fan?!
I did break NC if thats how you want to view it. For 2 messages. And it was a hugely difficult thing to do. But seeing my little one smile today at getting that back....I would do it again in a heartbeat for them. No other reason, only for what is best for them.

The real issue is that you are not at the stage were you can 100% mentally cutoff your PD mother from your life.

Going NC in the physical/communication sense vs the mental sense are two very different things in my experience.

Took me about 3 years to reach the point were I simply cut off any attempt at communication, because I knew that mentally I had reached acceptance (my mother was too toxic a person to interact with).

Once you get to a healthy place (mentally), you will have no compunction to shut down unhealthy provocations (which is what your PD mother did), with the individual in question not receiving any further chances at displaying dysfunctional behavior.

[moglow]

No contact isn't required or expected, and you certainly owe none of us an explanation for your choices as to when or if or under what circumstances you contact her or anyone else. You may well decide that extremely limited [if near non-existent contact] serves you, and if that's the case so be it. Just understand that you get there when you get there - or not. It could very well be that nothing you say or do ever changes her behavior and treatment of you, and that's ALL on her. You're still only responsible for yourself and your stuff.

Do I think we should probably be more clear on our own expectations and/or choices for our lives and families? Yes. It serves us best when we're not offering endless explanations or repeat recitations of "but you said ..." and can address our lives without their interference. I try to remember that people hear what they want to hear - it may well be that your mother sees any contact as an invitation for "more" [mine does that btw]. You're always free to disabuse her of that notion, same as with anyone else. Address a specific issue/need for contact and only that, don't respond to anything else, don't encourage more. I try to remain polite and cordial when limited contact is necessary - the instant mommie dearest starts sniping and snapping, I'm out. It took YEARS to get to this point, where I have no reason to contact her and I'm happiest when she stays on her side of the metaphorical fence. It took me a long time to build that fence and I'm down to a maintenance level with which I'm content as I can be under the circumstances. No one wants "this" with a parent but it's the best I'm likely to have while she's living. I doubt seriously I'll miss or grieve when she leaves this life.

Were I in the business/shared housing relationship she pushed at one time, I wouldn't be in this place emotionally, so my heart goes out to you. It's a very narrow path knowing that they can/could pull that rug out from under you if they choose. Do what you can as you can to remove that hook so you can live a more peaceful life.