Ramping up the manipulation

Penny Lane · October 08, 2020, 03:58:30 PM

Every time the kids seem to be making progress, BM tries to find a way to disrupt it! It's so maddening.

I think there are two things she's reacting to. One is that DSS13 had a conversation with her where he asked her to change the parenting time schedule and I think he told her he's not happy about the area that she lives in, although we just heard bits and pieces from him and DSD10. The other is that he has been doing counseling, and DH has been describing our parenting routines. Most recently our bedtime routine, which is orderly, involves a session of talking about feelings and leaves the kids plenty of time to sleep. Apparently the difference between houses is ... stark, in all these different ways. For example bedtime is whenever she thinks of it, they rarely talk about feelings ever and they watch a bunch of tv right before bed. So even though she really downplays the differences I think she really hates hearing about things that we're doing successfully.

So all of a sudden the kids come back to our house and their attitudes are a total 180. DSS all of a sudden has all this new negativity about a variety of things.

First he started complaining about how "none of his friends live near here" and he said "there are lots of kids around mom's house." This is absolutely not true, in fact it's the opposite of true. She lives in a party area with lots of college/young professional type apartments. We live in a family neighborhood right near the kids' school. All of their friends from school live in walking or biking distance from here. It sounds like he has made one friend in her neighborhood who lives closer to her than his very best friend lives to us, and somehow she gaslighted him into thinking that means that he has tons of friends near her house and none near ours? So that makes me very sad for him. Not the fact that we're not getting credit for sacrificing to live in the school district in a much more family friendly area while she parties it up with people right out of college (although that stings a bit, I know it's temporary). But the fact that this is SO CLEARLY not true and that he feels like he has to repeat it even though I know he knows what's real deep down.

As a side note, she has again started to talk about moving closer to us/the school, which makes me think that he complains about her house so much that she's making stuff up in order to placate/manipulate him into not complaining so much.

Then he started complaining about how much he hates our bedtime routine. He said it's unnecessary and he especially doesn't like the part where we talk about our feelings. He's too old for this and we shouldn't be making him do it. This came THE NEXT TIME he came back after the counselor praised our bedtime routine in front of BM. Fortunately, part of the thing with the bedtime routine is that we hash out any issues that come up during the day and we're all supposed to focus on problem solving. So we were able to approach it with a problem solving mindset and somewhat ironically using our process he came to the conclusion that the bedtime routine is working for him. So I guess that's at least validating, that the process works!

There's other stuff too but the connection between these complaints and the recent events makes it pretty clear that BM is feeling inadequate. And instead of making her house more kid-friendly, she is just trying to make the kids hate our house.

Between DSS's complaints and the fact that DSD has been really snuggly, I suspect that BM has changed her favorite. At least temporarily - the last time I said this happened she switched back pretty quickly. Obviously her having a favorite isn't great but the flip flopping of favorites I think is even worse because the kids are on edge just wondering when it's going to happen again.

I know that we need to stay the course and be the soft landing place no matter whether things are good or bad. But man I like it a lot better when things are good! And when BM's bad behavior comes with less whining to us by the kids.

Stepping lightly · October 09, 2020, 09:58:53 AM

PL,

The similarities are always so striking to me. Your assessment of the reasons behind the situation seem pretty sound. It's SO frustrating, because the PD forces a never-ending tug of war over custody. If they could just settle in and do their thing and let you do their thing...as long as the kids are safe and healthy...nobody needs to fight anybody. But they...just...can't let go of the rope. I think our situation has only settled down a bit because BM now has more to lose if we go back to court- and we want as much stability as possible- so there is less pulling (not none...but less fierce as far as I know).

I never really could understand how the PD makes a kid turn on a dime. The swapping of GC/SG roles really does make the kids behaviors change immediately. We would have one kid basically following DH around the house and clinging to him (DSD did this one time...literally followed him from room to room for a week and slept on our floor), and when they came back they would be absolutely nasty to him. BM had about a 6 month cycle, and you could sense when the shift would start, but the full change was really quick. She's kept the same GC/SG now for about 4 years, about the time DSS really started standing up to her.

DSD refuses to form relationships with friends that are associated with our house- it's really sad. We have neighbors that want to spend time with her, are actually a couple of years older and have tons in common with her, and she outright just ignores them. She likes them, enjoys the time they do spend together, but you can tell there is a wall up where she refuses to connect. All of her friends are really associated with her mom's house.

I would definitely stick to your routine, it's good in so many ways. Reinforce to DSS that being able to talk about things, especially feelings, is something that only comes with maturity. You are doing it because you know they are mature enough to be an important part of discussions and it helps you understand their point of view on important decisions in your home.

As far as the friend from her neighborhood, I'm sure you are doing this, but make sure he knows you will support him spending time with that friend, and if they want to make plans on your time to let you know.

Penny Lane · October 12, 2020, 11:36:47 AM

That's interesting, I didn't really think of it as a custody thing because we're really not trying to push for more. I think DH got pretty much the best deal he could in the last round. And unless she goes way off the rails, the stress of court is simply not worth whatever small changes he could get out of it. But I think DSS had been thinking seriously that he wanted to see changes in the parenting plan. He's certainly communicated that to us - not so much that he wanted to change the amount of time, but that he wanted a different schedule. And he's not happy with how things go at her house. So it's not a huge leap to think that he told BM something that alarmed her in terms of wanting to be here more. So she's gaslighting not just because she feels like she's doing a bad job, generally, as a parent, but specifically because she doesn't want to lose parenting time (ie money in the form of child support). I guess when I think about it like that, this is something I've kind of expected in the back of my mind. DSS will eventually pull away so hard that BM with start a serious manipulation campaign. I think we need to stay as far out of the middle of it as possible and let him work it out in his own mind.

Another thing that in retrospect I think was contributing to this is that I suspect that DSS called out BM directly for favoring DSD. My guess is that she overcorrected (to put it kindly) and is now favoring him. So that's an added layer. I wonder if he'll notice that she's now treating DSD badly? Teens are supposed to be pretty self involved, so my guess is no, but I wish he would see how it's damaging to be on either side of the coin.

With the friend - so the really crazy thing here is that DSS doesn't even really like this kid. He's told us in the past that the kid sort of makes him uncomfortable, like talking about violent stuff and encouraging DSS to break rules. In fact DSS had talked to us in the past about ending the friendship! We talked through ways he could take a break without burning any bridges because I had a sense that this wasn't a permanent thing. And it seems like the cycle is, basically, when things are really bad with BM, DSS leaves and hangs out with this friend. If he's able to be inside the house for the whole day without really bad BM interactions, he doesn't see the friend.

As a side note, one of the things the counselor picked up on is DSS's tendency to catastrophize. It's all or nothing, if he's not enjoying this kid's company he talks about breaking off the friendship completely. If he doesn't like how things are going with his mom he wants to change the parenting plan. And so on. Bill Eddy talks about this in his book, how it's important to display managed emotions and moderate solutions when dealing with a high conflict person. So we've tried to push DSS toward problem solving/compromising, but maybe it's time to explicitly work on moderating he thinks about problems.

So anyway yes we've told him he can invite his friend from her house over here. But he doesn't want to, because they're really friends of convenience and he has plenty of those on our street, and also because he doesn't think his friend would make the investment to come an entire 15 minutes away. Or maybe he doesn't think the friend's parents would drive him. (It sounds like the other parents who live near BM seem to be a lot like BM - more concerned with partying than with parenting). And he doesn't want to invite any of his friends over to BM's, ever, at least from what we can tell, so he's not really able to see his school friends unless they invite him to their houses.

I guess we'll see what the next few weeks brings because sometimes this kind of manipulation fades away and sometimes it's the new normal for awhile.

Free2Bme · October 12, 2020, 03:58:02 PM

PL,

Sorry to hear of the ongoing drama. I agree with your take on it and your approach to solutions.

"BM is feeling inadequate. And instead of making her house more kid-friendly, she is just trying to make the kids hate our house."
-Bingo. Sadly, PD's really have no motive to create something beautiful, so they play dirty pool.

"I suspect that BM has changed her favorite. At least temporarily - the last time I said this happened she switched back pretty quickly. Obviously her having a favorite isn't great but the flip flopping of favorites I think is even worse because the kids are on edge just wondering when it's going to happen again."
True - The kid's will likely see that being the 'Fav' is more of a curse than a blessing, and will end up resenting the push/pull, and BM exploiting them for her own agenda. This is a form of child abuse, IMO.

"I know that we need to stay the course and be the soft landing place no matter whether things are good or bad."
-You and your H are the security for DSS & DSD. Maybe if DS wants to bump the bedtime feelings recap, agree to give him that latitude. It's not like you would shut him down if he changes his mind and wants to talk at bedtime in the future. You could also just casually shift it to a different time, like when your doing dinner dishes or something. At PD mom's, DSS may have little say or control, you may gain some trust by letting him feel like he has a little wiggle room at your place, while not really giving up anything in the grand scheme.

I would be concerned about the 'friend' at BM neighborhood. Futuristically, if things escalate with BM, DSS might be tempted to hang out more with this kid just to avoid drama. IME, updxh will set DS up for damage/disaster and then when DS gets in trouble, blames it on me for divorcing. Things don't have to make sense in PD-land.

Penny Lane · October 13, 2020, 01:40:57 PM

Thank you Free2Bme and I agree with everything you said!

Yes, it is emotional abuse to make her love conditional on whether you're the child most aligned with her vs your own father. I hate it! It's so hard to watch. I know that's the whole thing about coparenting with a PD, that we all deal with, and everyone else here is doing the exact same thing. It sucks!

I don't think we're going to scrap the bedtime routine entirely. The feelings talks have been so, so good for DSS. They've been the main vehicle for his opening his eyes about BM, but also we've been able to hear about his stress and thoughts about a variety of other things. They really facilitate openness between the four of us. I think that's why BM hates them so much! I do like the idea of shifting it slightly, so he's getting the same benefits but calling it something else (doing it at a different time in a different place, or whatever) so that he doesn't realize this is the same thing she tried to pressure him about. We'll look for areas to do that.

I also realized recently that DSS has basically stopped the one on one conversations between him and I about BM. I totally let him drive them, and he hasn't sought them out in several weeks. I do think it's normal for it to go in cycles - he wants to do a lot of processing, then he wants to take a break. HOWEVER, she also referenced to DH that DSS had mentioned that he talked about his feelings to me. So I suspect that this break has more to do with similar manipulations there as opposed to what he would want to do on his own. I'm very sad about this! I felt like they were very valuable to him and they often weren't even about BM. They were bringing us closer and now we don't have that. He will do other stuff with me like go on a walk, so hopefully he's still feeling the same support and love even though we're not doing this one thing.

About the friend - yeah we're not thrilled but there's not a whole lot we can do. It's not like we can ban him from seeing his friend at his mom's house. We've tried to use this as a learning opportunity about how to behave with difficult people. And we've tried not to make him feel like it's us vs the friend, so he feels like he can talk to us when there is a problem there. Which it seems like he did! But we can't actually save him from BM's lack of parenting. He might have actually started solving this himself anyway - it sounds like he made a new friend, and DH actually knows this kid's parents and says they're good people. Hopefully that will supersede the other friendship with the kid he doesn't like anyway. And if that friendship develops we will certainly allow/encourage him to invite that kid over here as well!

And yes, BM definitely has a tendency to let things blow up and then try to blame DH and, especially, try to get DH to come in and clean up her messes. He's set some pretty serious boundaries about what he will and won't do. But ultimately I'm sure her narrative is that everything that goes right with the kids is her doing, while everything that they struggle with is because of DH. She tells the kids, her parents, her boyfriends, her friends, anyone who will listen. Obviously that's not true, and it's damaging for the kids, but we can't really stop it.

Stepping lightly · October 14, 2020, 10:42:58 AM

Hi PL,

I think you have a good hold on what is going on. The fact that DSS is still going on walks with you, I think is pretty major. The fact that he understands he can go on a walk with you and you won't make it all about "having a chat" is also really huge- to me that shows he trust you, and he believes you understand what he needs.

My DSS goes through phases where he talks about things and long periods where he doesn't. Things are so tough for DSS that I think he tries not to think about it when he is with us, but every once in a while I think he needs support. He used to talk to me a lot, but now he almost exclusively talks to DH. I don't think there is any reason for that, and I completely support it as I want him and his Dad to be close- that is more important than anything else.

We just need to follow their cues. Sadly- the gaslighting and BM having preferences....all stuff we end up having to handle in stride. It won't go away, we just need to be as low reaction as possible and give the kids what we feel they need during this time periods. Maybe you can shift the time for talking about feelings to just doing something together- like play a game or something where you are just spending time together. I think at some point DSS will want to shift back to some feelings discussion after it's not being hammered on BM's end.

Penny Lane · October 14, 2020, 12:51:02 PM

We have some good news! DSS seems to want to resume our nightly talks. The bad news is that this new teenager really, really wants to talk ad nauseum about allllll the things he's not allowed to do and how unfair it is and how we're ruining his life and destroying all his friendships by having what I think are fairly minimal restrictions/rules. Apparently we are the strictest parents in the universe.

I have to laugh - it's annoying, but it's normal parenting annoying, not coparenting with a PD annoying, so it's kind of a relief. These conversations are much less fraught than his questions about stuff with his mom.

To be honest - if he needs a break, great! I could use one too. I don't want him to feel like we can't have these conversations. But I am also fine not spending every night trying to thread the needle of affirming his feelings about his mom without badmouthing her or expressing negativity in any way. I am much more relaxed in the arena of "I think you guys are way too overprotective." And you are definitely right SL that we should follow their cues and I certainly don't need to bring up BM when DSS isn't doing so on his own.

Anyway, it seems like we're getting back to normal. BM's effects on the kids is always sort of hanging out there, but I've talked myself down from feeling like this latest is a crisis.

Stepping lightly · October 14, 2020, 02:12:05 PM

That's awesome!

Haha, normally parenting....makes me laugh how much we appreciate normal things!

Sadly, sometimes the normal parenting is filled with the PD land mines anyway. Like DSD always wants a sip of wine when we have it, and we tell her no. Do I think it's a big deal if she has a sip, nope- and BM lets her have sips. However, it would be a big deal through BM's eyes if we gave her a sip and it is not worth a trip to court. So the never ending questions, "can I have a sip? Why not? Mom lets me" gets exhausting, but we tell her it's the law. It's like groundhog day on that one, maybe next time I'll say "Ok, so here is where you ask, then I'm gonna say, then you say", pretend we are some kid of Abbot and Costello act.

Penny Lane · October 19, 2020, 08:40:17 AM

Probably every divorced parent, whether or not there's a PD involved, has heard "well MOM (or dad) lets me do it!"

We hear it constantly and DH has perfected the monotone "different house, different rules."

I love the Abbott and Costello routine ... if you can make it entertaining (even just to yourself) that helps you survive the teenage years, I think.

athene1399 · October 26, 2020, 08:23:32 AM

Even after BM kicked SD out last year, she still believed her friends wouldn't see her if she moved in with us. It's so difficult to see the PD's manipulations have that much control over the kids. I am glad things are Getty back to normal, PL. the stress from the PD manipulation/alienation tactics can be great.