Self-editing/grey rock/medium chill

[Happypants]

I feel like I'm swinging back and forth between extremes of feeling self-doubt and feeling self-contained, the latter is becoming the more common mode and it's making me determined to live my life fully.  I know i don't yet have bullet-proof boundaries, sometimes the effects manifest themselves a while after the interaction.  But initially, the awareness and predictability of both PD's behaviour allows me to stand back as an objective witness.

I've come around to this nagging feeling (perhaps borne out of false confidence) that i should just be me and do me without expending valuable energy on editing what i say to them.  I think of one of Jerry Wise's videos where he asks what is the point of trying to limit/edit yourself when they'll label you to suit their narrative regardless - i.e. when you tell yourself you're the bad daughter - "So what?".  I wonder if it'll bring out the worst in them and leave me in no doubt, or whether I'll fall back into the need for security and remain the favoured source of supply.

Has anyone successfully been themselves as they would with normal parents and come out the other end in one piece? What are your experiences of trying? I'm meaning once you have a level of awareness at least partially Out of the FOG in order to be cognisant enough to view the effects through educated eyes if that makes sense.

[Boat Babe]

I am pretty much myself with uBPD mum but I certainly don't tell her everything. She can take me or leave me as I am, but as I am all she's got, she has dialled down the rage and is now in permanent full metal waif (thank you WI ❤️) She no longer has the upper hand and I just look at her cooly when she strays anywhere near being vile. How to train your PD!!!  But she's not as extreme as some of people's parents so I know this can't work for everyone.

Sending hugs to everyone.

[Hilltop]

Funny that you say that Happypants I have wondered the same thing.  I tend to shut down around my parents and I am not myself, I am a shell of myself.  I am taking time out now with the very intention of working on myself and just rebuilding my self esteem to the point where I feel good about myself and my life.  I am considering this option down the track.

If I can face them with a "I don't care" attitude, this is me and I'm happy and I just don't care what you think that would be great.  I also have issues with my sister as my mom has used competition and triangulation between us.  What would be good for me is working through those feelings so that when I go back I can easily say "How is sis" and not feel triggered by it.  I would love to get to the point of simply not caring.  However is that possible?

Those triggers are really entrenched deep within and I'm not sure I'll get there so I will be reading any replies with interest.

[DetachedAndEngaged]

I'm familiar with the space you are in.

At this point I'm in VLC with my uNPD father and enabling mother and I'm very much myself with them about the topics I'm willing to discuss. We speak on the phone about once a month or so. In recent years I've visited them in person once annually (staying separately in a hotel and not for more than two days), but with COVID that won't be happening until we are all vaccinated. It works pretty well, but I stay away from anything that I know will escalate my father into anger and if I notice him starting to get tense I change the subject. Last time I spoke with them he got cranked up quickly out of the blue and raised his voice, which I didn't care for. He wasn't angry at me, but I am just not willing to put up with it. He texted me the other day wanting to schedule another call, but I pushed him off for a week and will continue to do so until I'm in the mood.

My wife and I are in VVVLC contact with her uNPD sister--we only see her at family events that we aren't willing to forgo because of our desire to see everyone else. We avoid her as much as possible and grey rock otherwise. Nevertheless, we both feel pretty mentally pounded for a couple of days afterwards--she's so unbearable. We've learned to schedule recovery time after we see her. We are definitely NOT ourselves around her.

So, it depends and shifts over time.

I suggest you focus on what's good for you. Edit what you think won't lead to a desirable outcome.

The best way to avoid having to edit yourself and just be who you are is to maximize the time you spend dealing with people you can just be yourself around and avoid spending it with PDs.

To quote William Burroughs "If after having encountered someone's presence you feel as though you've lost a quart of plasma, avoid that presence."

It is a journey of trial and error.

[Happypants]

Thanks for your input. My attempt wasn't fruitful.  To cut a long story short, i was open with my father about planning to look for an additional Xmas present for one of my nephews. My mother maintains I'm good at choosing presents but always insists on pushing her suggestions on me.  And i mean pushing, pushing to the degree that you can't quite comprehend how they don't notice that they've repeated themselves almost ten times (literally) in trying to make you do what they want  Every. Bloody. Year.  I would love to say that was the end of it, but no, for the past 24 hours I've had that yucky back-and-forth "was i being awkward?"/"should i just have agreed for the sake of peace?".  I feel like a stroppy teenager cutting off my nose to spite my face, despite the fact that i don't think he would have liked the present suggested and that she originally said the SHE had planned to get them for him.  Back to 100% self-doubt and being a bad daughter in one stupid conversation about Xmas presents. Bah humbug 

Boat Babe - i feel like my mother doesn't fall within the extreme either, but i do feel she masks a lot of contempt for me, and masks it very well depending on who's about (she's at her sweetest if my partner or brother are present). I think, in hindsight, I probably had interactions with my father in mind when I thought about being open, something i didn't realise at the time. He's sensitive, passive aggressive and judgemental, but i know he also has a lot of good in him, although it can be a gamble depending on what mood he's in. She, on the other hand, i have no doubts about her mindset.

Hilltop - my mother has a history of triangulation and smear campaigns, and trying to stay sane wore me down.  I got to a point that i was also shut down, my mind started going blank during family get togethers and it started seeping into interactions with other people so i had to work on that.  I think the determination stage was off the back of worrying that was how i was always going to feel around others.  But like you say, the triggers are deeply entrenched and i know that's what I'm feeling just now.  Doubting myself is my biggest foe.

DetachedAndEngaged - There are certain subjects where i know my father will shut me down if I show any bias so i normally try to gauge whether I'm feeling solid in my own self before i go there.  To give an example, birthday dinner with my parents and in-laws last year - I'm a little braver than before and sometimes talk basic politics with FIL, sometimes some light, fun debate and on my part, some lighthearted ideas. FIL mentioned at the dinner table a simplistic idea I'd had about our country's politics, my fathers response: "well there we go, Happypants for prime minister", VERY sarcastically and with a look. Thinking outside the family opinion is not an option.  But neither is carrying on complying and staying in the role. I guess i need to find a balance in the meantime.

[Hilltop]

Its hard isn't, a simple conversation about a present becomes a minefield.  I often think with the same sort of conversations that I will say "Ok I will think about it" and then move on but like you say it's not that easy.  They keep pushing.  It becomes exhausting. 

The comment regarding what your father said about becoming Prime Minister is something very similar to what my father has said to me.  That's the other thing that worries me about being in contact.  Its that undermining, the mocking that hurts our self esteem. I worry being around that will be more harmful in the long run.

[Fortuna]

I was never really able to be myself around her. I didn't allow her control over my life, usually the opposite. (Every time she commented on how immodest my shirt was it would be lower cut each and every time she saw me. Nearly had to go out and buy a plunge neck.) Sometimes I'd try but it always ended with her being in a snit. The safe topics of conversation just kept getting smaller until not even the weather was safe. Being myself and stating my own opinions would have been a good way to be under constant assault. She's word salad me to death each time. I chose not to argue her crazy.

[Sneezy]

Sometimes medium chill is exhausting.  It takes effort to inhibit what you would truly like to say.  But I have found it's worth it.  Way back in high school and college, I quickly learned that my mother would use information against me later.  PDs store information.  And they twist it and use it to their advantage, whether that's to manipulate you, put you down, or to bolster their own perceived self-importance by sharing your personal information with others.  Back in high school (or maybe it was junior high) I confided in my mom that I had tried a few puffs of a cigarette.  She berated me and made me feel like the most worthless daughter in existence.  She had me in tears, even though I found cigarettes in her purse not too long after that.  And seriously?  All that angst over cigarettes?  That was an early lesson in not trusting her with personal information.  To compare this to how I think parenting should work, when my own daughter was in high school, she shared with me that she had tried smoking weed, and I just nodded and let her talk and then asked her to get me some (just kidding).  But I certainly didn't berate her or make her feel worthless.  That's not what loving parents do.

There are times when I'd like to say screw it, I'm just going to be myself, and mom can take it or leave it.  But in the long run, it's worth the effort to edit.  I don't tell mom anything that I wouldn't want twisted around and then published to the entire world.  I'm a private person and I can't trust mom with my privacy.

[SparkStillLit]

The only people I am "myself" around are my friends. Or BY myself!
My mother is way too aggressive and steamrollery. She will use whatever as a weapon and try to drag you under.

[SparkStillLit]

Sorry I had to deal with nonsense (what a surprise). Anyway, can't give mum any info of any kind. Light, bright, breezy. Like a commercial for air freshener!
Updh is same. He STORES SH*T UP. He also twists it around. Or repackages it (mum does that, too, repackaging). More air freshener!
It's harder with updh because I live with him, so I try to make it a pint to carve time out for myself daily to be me and do things to restore myself, when he isn't around.

[SparkStillLit]

Omg a *Point not a pint lololol though I'm not saying a pint wouln't help now and again...

[IRedW77]

Right, now that I actually looked up these terms in the glossary I can comment.
These are all strategies I came to naturally on my own.

Self-editing is super easy for me because I'm such a private person. I actually have a harder time sharing things I want to share with people than trying to edit myself. I already edit myself with literally everyone except my wife—and it's taken years to be as open as I can with her.

Medium chill is just automatic because I completely pulled the emotional plug on my BPD mom decades ago. They can't hurt you if they don't have access to your feelings.

The power balance is also important. If they need you in their lives and you don't need them for anything it's easier to deal with them. They'll behave if they need you for something.

I'm also forming the opinion from reading here that waifs in particular mellow with age. The rage is the hardest thing to deal with as a kid. The other stuff is more insidious and does the more lasting damage, but you often don't even know what's being done to you. You can't miss the rage. My mom was going through menopause when I was a teenager and the amount of rage I dealt with really helped me separate myself. After that and after I left home she gradually got a lot mellower.

Now I just have to deal with her blame, which just rolls off my back because I know she's just making sh** up. She still manages to get a good guilt jab in once in a while—especially if she can work someone else into the equation that I actually care about more than her.
The rest is just dull frustration. I honestly don't care about anything she has to say and I know all her moves by now. She's going to bitch about other people. She's going to remind me how hard her life is. She's going to tell me her latest and greatest health stuff—but I think part of her knows that I'm going to completely ignore anything she says on the subject. That doesn't stop her from trying, but it stops her getting too carried away. Cold uncaring disinterest can work.

The worst that happens now is that I get used as a personal assistant. She did such a good job building me into her personal life coach that I actually almost enjoy that. She brings me practical solveable problems. A lot of them are super easy for me to deal with anyway.

These days she spends most of her time telling me about politics. This works out well for her because I actually am stressed out by the NPD monster in the White House so we have some pain to share. She's waaay more into the pain and anger of it than I am, but we actually do agree on politics about 95% of the time so she doesn't get much pushback.

My advice for someone trying to work on these skills would be maybe to focus on one at a time. If you feel like the PD hits you hardest in the emotions then focus on self editing. Then at least you can focus on dealing with just the emotions without worrying about sneak attacks on another front. Once you can detach enough to observe more they may get fairly predictable.

[Happypants]

Thanks, all the your experiences and responses are much appreciated.

IRedW77 Ah yes, the power balance - this is really what it all boils down to, well for her at least.  She needs power over others while my priority is retaining power over my self worth and the path that my life takes. Their predictability is already a well established component of our interactions and a  tool for validation of my beliefs of how indefensible some of their behaviour has been.  I hear you very much on the medium chill - it's something i started doing early on as a defence mechanism, although until i fully understood the big picture, it felt wrong even when it benefited me. 

[Hepatica]

I am no longer able to do medium chill. I am puzzled really, as to what this means, and if i'm being way too harsh. I don't want to edit myself anymore around anyone, so when I used to spend time around my parents and sister, I started to feel like a beaten down dog that growls quietly and is way too afraid to defend itself.  I mean, I would sometimes feel my body trembling and that is such a horrible thing to recognize and realize. There are so many things that have happened since I was born and I learned to be this self-denying person just to survive and I'm so so tired of it.

Maybe it's a cycle? My parents were somewhat bearable up until their late seventies. Things were in their favour. They had their health and they could do their things to keep their disorder managed and fairly hidden behind their closed doors. But when my mother nearly died the disorder that I remember from childhood flared. My mother began to scream at everyone at the hospital. My father began to get his scary eyes (that I recall from childhood as potentially dangerous) and I was not doing their bidding, and being the obedient, self-less daughter. I couldn't because their behaviour was flaring my childhood C-PTSD. Over this time, I began to really recall how excruciating growing up with these people had been. I had forgotten in the feeling department and all that emotion came back.

Since I've gone NC there is something new happening to me. I am calling it BadAss Self-Respect. When I found out the extended FOO was using me as a scapegoat and the rumour mill was full of how none of you should ever behave like Hepatica (which was you know, taking care of myself because I have C-PTSD from these people) I have this strange feeling now of finding them all laughable and sad. I feel badass. I give them all the finger in my mind lately.

And this is very new. But I don't want to be around people like them anymore. Not even if they're family. Not even if they have good days and behave with decency. Not even if they put that roof over my head and clothes on my back way back then. Not even if they brought me into this world and I owe them somehow.

I don't want to be around people who don't even try to understand where I am coming from and would rather put my feet to fire to get me back into my old role of sweet, kind, care-taking Hepatica.

I'm giving myself some of the care finally. Finally..

But I had to be reminded how bad these people can be and for me, their really destructive PD behaviour didn't return until things began to really fall apart for them, and then I was just expected to forgive and forget and get to work for them. I forgive them but I no longer forget and I'm not going to re-traumatize myself by dealing with them anymore. The only way to be around them is to self-edit and continue to "manage" them because they won't manage themselves. I'm done with it. Peace has arrived with no contact and it feels healthy and hopeful. I am feeling like I am finally getting to know myself.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I hear you Hepatica, and I feel the same way about my family members. If they can't handle the uncut version, then I'm doing them a favor by staying far away. However, I find medium chill to be useful around acquaintances, sometimes professionals, just everyday people. People I don't want to get close to, but need to just deal with. Polite and nothing more. It's a skill I had to learn because I was raised to be a completely open book with no boundaries. Example, my mother was pleased with me because I had customers at my teenage job who told me all their private business. How their divorce was going. A little medium chill would have been great then.

[Boat Babe]

That's great Hepatica. It's always darkest just before the dawn. You've been wrestling with NC and lingering trauma bonds and understanding your own inner landscape for a while. Thank you for sharing it all with us as you have generated a lot of thoughtful comment that has been useful to the whole community, as well as yourself.

I often feel quite awful, just before a breakthrough. And then, it happens and everything suddenly becomes simpler, lighter, clearer.  Must be part of the process, for me at least. That's why I love the FOG metaphor so much 😁

[Hepatica]

If they can't handle the uncut version, then I'm doing them a favor by staying far away.

Brilliance, Call Me Cordelia. That's how I feel. It's a win win for all involved. Won't be long till they find the next scapegoat, but it's no longer going to be me. My Dh saw it coming. That last drop in by my father, and his little side swipe insinuating I am crazy, and my Dh sat there shaking his head. He knew I'd finally and utterly had it. My father thinks shaming and striking work? No more.

I think I can do medium chill in the general public but since I have barely left my house since Covid, we shall see!  I feel like there has been a shift in me to a more distant observer than I used to be.

Boat Babe, thank you for your kind observation. My therapist said something very similar to what you did about the darkest before dawn. I felt horrendous in October but this feels now like a break through. I'm a really BIG feeling person and I will always feel compassion but there is this new part of me now that feels wise and knowing, even when the knowing is seeing things "as they are" and while that's hard, at least I'm no longer fooling myself.

HappyPants, I hope you find anything in my response helpful. Your question has sure helped me pinpoint some personal realizations and changes. Thank you.

[Hilltop]

That's wonderful Hepatica.  I really relate to the feeling of not being able to do medium chill anymore.  I just don't think I can stomach it any more, I leave seeing my parents feeling like I have to recover for a week or more and that's not normal or healthy.  I also don't want to live my life feeling like I have to edit myself, I want to be myself and I want to like myself.  I think for me when I think about going back to see my parents I just loathe the thought of being mocked again and I am not sure if I can put myself through that again.  I don't want to have to get to a point where I don't care enough about what they say about me to then be able to disregard their mocking, to me that sounds exhausting and to be truthful I don't know if I can get to the point of not caring.  I have done medium chill and self editing for my whole adult life with them and yet here I sit still extremely hurt by them, to me I am not sure if that's worth it.

I haven't seen the dawn yet however I am so glad to hear you are feeling stronger Hepatica.  I am still having moments thinking that I will get stronger and be able to form some type of a relationship with them but I also don't want to because I know that with that contact comes vigilance because in reality they aren't going to change.  To me that sounds exhausting.  I am thinking the answers will come as I spend time away and heal.

I can definitely do medium chill in the general public and it's a very useful tool there.  I also like the fact that with distance and no contact I am not in the scapegoat role, as you say Hepatica they can find the next scapegoat and that's one thing I feel really good about, the fact that its not me.

[Happypants]

Hilltop - I sympathise with having to recover after seeing them.  I've definitely made progress in that the negative effects aren't instant, but there is the feeling of having escaped pain if i see/speak to them and there are no comments/manipulations, but i know I'm on high alert all the same, and then there's the lead up to the next interaction and the wondering how they'll behave.  It's all exhausting and constant. MC isn't sustainable for me personally, hence the post.  But i think that realisation has opened me up to the possibility of what will be the next step depending on how things go from here (COVID, Xmas, their health, MY health, etc).  I hope you find clarity x

Hepatica - I can't tell you how happy i am for you having made a massive breakthrough.  Thank you for your insightful and honest posts and responses.  I think others' experiences and journeys to happiness are essential reading while picking ourselves apart then putting the pieces back together.  Sending hugs 🤗