Alienation

[Whiteheron]

I know it's been a long time since I've posted about what's going on with my ex uPDh. To make a very long story short, I filed for divorce over three years ago, it was made final during the pandemic (finally!).

To back up a little: xuPDh lost custody last fall (details are in my posts from late Aug/early Sept 2019). Since then, we've been slowly working back up to the old schedule. DD isn't ready. This is a problem for xH. xH's L has brought this up numerous times to the judge. She has repeatedly said not to pressure the kids (DD13 and DS17). The third or fourth time, the judge had enough and told xH's L to tell him to back off. Since then, xH has tried pressuring DD a few times. To her credit, his gf witnessed this and pulled him aside. DD tells me her dad is angry that she won't go back to the old schedule.

Things seemed to settle down.

Then, last week, my doorbell rings and I open the door to a process server - xH actually had me served with papers! He's demanding we go back to the original custody schedule. These papers include a long list of grievances and alleged behaviors I am displaying around the kids. I was (am) so very upset. The person he describes in the papers is my complete opposite. Once again, I find the need to defend myself against outrageously false allegations. He is claiming I am alienating the kids from him, that this is why DD will not go back to the old custody schedule. He claims I am teaching the kids that he was physically abusive (which he never was), I am allegedly badmouthing him and calling him crazy, the list goes on and on. He describes how I refuse to allow the kids to spend extra time with him and how I react in a comically angry way when the kids ask about spending more time with him (they don't). He claims that this has been a years long campaign against him. He also claims that I'm hung up on him and am angry about the divorce (that I filed for...). He claims I've rebuffed his numerous offers to get together to discuss my feelings 

The kicker - his proof is an email that DS sent to the former GAL , that xH was aware of and encouraged DS to write (his exact words, in writing), and a text thread between xH and DS outlining all of the toxic behaviors and words I am accused of. To see this from DS really hurts. It's cut me deeply. My kind, sensitive DS is being turned against me right in front of my eyes and there is nothing I can do about it. DS has been effectively bought off by his dad. $$$$ new car, expensive laptop (I didn't even know they could cost that much!), new iPad, expensive shoes, new wardrobe, etc.

I've had a discussion with DS about secrets and lying - nothing about what was in the papers - there was another incident I was able to use. DS refuses to talk to me about it, told me he refused to feel bad about anything. I asked him how he thinks it made me feel to know that he kept secrets from me and lied to me. I asked "don't you think that hurt my feelings, or did you just not care?" He replied that he didn't care (ouch). But right after that, he stayed glued to my side and talked to me about random things until I went to bed. So I can see that DS is torn between what, or who, his dad is pressuring him to be, and who he really is deep down.

My support and unconditional love is no match for the $$$ xH is willing to spend to "win" the kids over to his side. That it hasn't worked on DD (yet) is a mystery to him - therefore I must be tainting her against him.

I am so sick of these games. I wrongly thought it would end, or at least lessen, after the divorce was final. He has a gf, he's free of me...why is he still doing this? Why is he trying to break me? Why can't he leave me alone? (all rhetorical - I know his playbook). Grrr.

Thanks for reading. I hope it makes sense, I tried to keep it short and readable.

[Free2Bme]

Whiteheron,

"My support and unconditional love is no match for the $$$ xH is willing to spend to "win" the kids over to his side. "
I know it feels this way but the $$$ is NO MATCH for unconditional love and support from a parent.  Your ex is gambling and it's a weak bet, temporary at best, kids usually figure this game out pretty quick. 

I have four, updxh tried to pick them off (like in the story of the Pied Piper), entirely heartbreaking and frightening to experience.   I received the email from DS, written of course by dad and I literally collapsed after reading it. I was served and I lost my DS at barely 16 years old.  DS moved 400 miles away with no scheduled weekend/summer visitation (I had to agree to updxh terms, no $ for court).

Prior to this, updxh had chipped away at DS during visitations, especially the extended summer visit. Yes... the bribery, $50 haircuts, Air Jordan's, car, and would not agree to DS having counseling.   The transformation of my sweet boy was dramatic, and before my eyes as you said.  DS became abusive and hateful to me, said terrible things, stopped speaking to me for months.  I didn't think I would survive it, I was hopeless.

However, over the last year or more it has improved.  DS now 18, visits and is mostly loving and rarely brings up all the past complaints, but he (GC) is still in the FOG and defends his dad.  I really believed I had lost him forever and that I was loosing my mind. 

It is so hard not to take this behavior personally.  But when I reflect on how updxh was able to control/manipulate me, it helped put into perspective what DS was going through.  Much of what DS was doing was coerced, programed and rewarded.  I was the 'safe' parent, I took a lot off of DS and let it go.  I listened, was patient , and prayed, a lot.   

The fact that your DS is at your side, making conversation is precious.  Take heart, you are a good mom, keep it up.  Love on him, listen without judgment, ask him what he needs from you, and keep the line of communication open.  It will all pay off. 

My DD15 wants very little to do with her dad, she's had his number for a long time.  Its different for boys because they want the male to identify with. 
All 4 of mine (22, 21, 18, 15)  now see F as someone to get $/stuff from, if they play dad's game, really sad and empty.  I realized my power was in being totally antithetical to updxh; no guilt, no manipulation, no bribery, no BS.

Sending strength and peace to you   

[HotCocoa]

WH - I would take pictures of everything ex gave to your son as well as screenshots of the messaging between your son and ex, also, any proof of coercion in regards to your daughter and provide it to your attorney, pronto.  While it is not illegal to provide your children with gifts, it certainly looks like a pattern.  He is in the middle of his self delusional smear campaign against you. 

Let your kids know, all of that stuff doesn't matter, that they need to get good grades in school and have their activities and do what they are supposed to do to stay on track.   They may not get it right now, as teens, but when my kids were able to do their own things, have their own life, their dad lost his power.  Not that they don't want to see him on occasion, it's just I wanted to push them to have their own life instead of worrying about how their dad is feeling all the time. 

Always make it about them, not him.  Push them onto their own path. 
It didn't come easily and was most of the time an uphill battle, because children of narcissists are groomed to always and consistently worry about that PD parent. 

Take the focus off of him as much as you possibly can.   

[Whiteheron]

Thank you Free2Be and HotCocoa.

xH has been chipping away at the kids since before the divorce. They are only so strong. DS has moments of being absolutely horrible to me, then wants my constant attention. I see aspects of his dad in his newfound words and actions. It's horrifying. I was hoping DS could get away from all of this when he goes away to college next year, but xH has convinced him to go to a school very close to home. I think it will take a long time for DS to be able to break away and start to live his own life.

I will take your advice and remain open, consistent, and non-judgemental. I just feel like with everything else going on, I'm already at such a low point - this just knocks me down even further, and I honestly don't know how much more I can absorb before I break. I know this is the PD's goal, so I try to remain strong.

I don't have screenshots of the messaging between DS and xH - xH was kind enough to include excerpts from their text thread in the papers he filed. So it's out there for all to see. I've been keeping track of everything and letting my L know, since we have to officially respond to his filing.

I do try to talk to the kids about their interests. passions, goals, etc. I do push them to do well in school, and do anything I can to help them if they get stuck (with boundaries and within reason).

I was cleaning out DD's lunchbox the other day - at the bottom was a note from xH saying how he missed her already, etc, etc. I left it there. DD saw it, ripped it up and threw it away, saying "I'm a little too old for this kind of thing." And she's right. No 13 year old I know of wants a lunchbox note from dad (or mom). Just another way to remind her that he is ever-present. He is really trying hard to win her to his side as well.

[Stillirise]

WH, so sorry you are going through this. I am a little behind you in the process, and in the ages of kids (DD9, DS11).  I follow your posts, because this situation is my biggest fear.

I'm already starting to see the things you've talked about in this post, and others, with my stbxUPDh.  His thing right now is refusing to contribute toward expenses for any activities the kids want to do.  He says that's why he pays me child support.  He then buys them expensive toys and gadgets that he wants them to enjoy at his place.  He knows I will eventually buy the shoes, pay the fee, or whatever, because I won't be able to send the kids to activities they enjoy, without the things they need.   He was even complaining this weekend that I hadn't gotten around to purchasing DS a new pair of boots, which he would mostly wear at his place.  He makes 10x more $ than me right now. 

IMO, It's not about the kids, really—only control and punishment of us. Kids are collateral damage.  All I can say is we have to tell ourselves to trust the unconditional love, stability, compassion, and empathy we show to these kids.  Those are things that are 100% on us when it comes to parenting with a PD.  Also, at least when I come here, I don't feel so alone in doing so! Thanks for sharing.   

[Whiteheron]

I'm already starting to see the things you've talked about in this post, and others, with my stbxUPDh.  His thing right now is refusing to contribute toward expenses for any activities the kids want to do.  He says that's why he pays me child support.  He then buys them expensive toys and gadgets that he wants them to enjoy at his place.  He knows I will eventually buy the shoes, pay the fee, or whatever, because I won't be able to send the kids to activities they enjoy, without the things they need.   He was even complaining this weekend that I hadn't gotten around to purchasing DS a new pair of boots, which he would mostly wear at his place.  He makes 10x more $ than me right now. 

I could have written this! I used to just pay for the kids' activities myself. It made things so much easier. He's also supposed to reimburse any co-pays - I asked him once. I got the inquisition in response. It wasn't worth it for the $20.

I remember one time DS told me hid dad was demanding he bring his winter clothes and boots over to his house...nope. He makes gobs of money, he can buy a set for this house.

It's all about control. Everything with xH is about control. I think this is why he served me with papers - he tends to feel very out of control this time of year and lashes out. He's been able to successfully control DS (for now), and feels the strong need to control DD, and unfortunately, me. I'm not sure why he filled the papers with "facts" that cannot be proven and at best are secondhand hearsay?

So far, DS and I are doing ok. He's been very dismissive of me in some regards, which really set me off. We've argued more than usual, but I'm trying really hard to not take this personally. It's very tough when I hear xH's insults come out of DS's mouth. DS has even accused me of snooping. Which I don't do. So now I"m wondering if this was projection on DS's part and I'm considering changing all of my passwords.

[Medowynd]

How do you feel about addressing your son and his father's comments?  I only mention this, because my younger daughter was very disrespectful as a teenager, not because of divorce, but because of ADHD and other issues.  I was firm with her, that she could not speak in a demeaning manner. I asked her if she spoke to her friends that way and she was horrified, because she would never do that.  I insisted that she not speak to me that way and had consequences, mostly that I wouldn't respond to her.  I didn't want to reinforce her attitude and tone of voice. I hope that there is some way to help your son understand that what he is doing is unacceptable.  I can say this, I am almost very sure, that he is miserable with the way he is living and feeling.  Material goods only go so far.

[Penny Lane]

So far, DS and I are doing ok. He's been very dismissive of me in some regards, which really set me off. We've argued more than usual, but I'm trying really hard to not take this personally. It's very tough when I hear xH's insults come out of DS's mouth. DS has even accused me of snooping. Which I don't do. So now I"m wondering if this was projection on DS's part and I'm considering changing all of my passwords.

Yes definitely do that! It can't hurt and if your gut is right it could prevent huge issues.

It's also possible that your ex is snooping on DS. DSS often accuses us of stuff his mom does, it's really clear he's really talking about his mom (you're playing favorites, you don't consider us when you make vacation plans - all 100% her offenses). So your DS could be projecting in this way too.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. You've put up with so much and done so much for the kids, this feels really unfair. I think you have the strength to handle it even if you don't! But it just sucks and I'm sorry.

I'll echo Free2BeMe: Your ex might have won a short term victory. But in the long term, his bribery is no match for your love and support. He will never truly "have" the kids, because kids can't be "had" the way he wants. They will have real, authentic relationships with you, and not with him, because that's not what he's aiming for. You are playing the long game here, and that really does benefit the kids so, so much. I know that doesn't make it any easier in the short term, though.

[sevenyears]

White Heron -

First of all big hugs and congratulations! It's great to come back to the forum after a hiatus and hear some good news that your divorce went through. I'm sorry for what you and your children are going through - that's awful.

In my experience, every time there is a change in the family environment/system, the PD reacts against it, usually by upping the ante. In this case, your divorce is final, so the only way he still has to get under your skin is through the children.

HotCocoa gave good advice: make it about the children, not him. I know from experience how hard it is, and that you'll never know if it actually works until they are grown up, but at least you know you did the right thing, which in itself is a valuable lesson/role model for them. You're doing great!

I found Free2be's insight that the PDs manipulation of us as grown adults is hard to break out of and to remember how much more difficult it is for our children very helpful too. As an adult, I can learn to live without the love of my spouse (that's what divorce is for!). A child though really needs the love of his/her parent, which makes the kid that much more vulnerable to, and hurt by, a PD's manipulation.

Keep being such a good mom for your children 

[Whiteheron]

Quick update:
My L and I responded to the "papers" I was served with, and xH was allowed to respond to my response before going in front of the judge.

While working on another case, my L ran into the former GAL and had a conversation about what was going on. The GAL was horrified. To the point that she sent an email to the judge and both L's stating that while she was unable to disclose her response to DS's email, the accusations that xH and his L portrayed in the affidavit was a gross misrepresentation and not at all true, and that the email DS sent to her was privileged and should have not been disclosed in the affidavit. She then went on to say that she was no longer comfortable working with xH's L and would refuse to do so in the future.

Then we received xH's response affidavit. It was horrifying. Claiming I've embarked on a year's long campaign to groom the kids against him, to claim I'm abusing the kids, to accuse me of not speaking to DS about the claims in his first affidavit (I'm not supposed to - judge's rules). Berating me for essentially caring for the kids, claiming I force DD over to his house unprepared and without the necessary materials she needs for school (he picks her up directly from school, so I have no control over what she brings/doesn't bring to his house), how I've tainted the kids' therapists, how I'm harboring unhealthy anger towards him and taking it out on the kids, it goes on and on. I can't get into more detail without revealing too much. It was awful. Not a shred of truth to any of it. It was very difficult to read.

I am so sick of this, I am so sick of him. He needs to leave me alone, but alas, that's not in the cards. Yet.


***
meadownyd - I'm not 'allowed' to address what's in the papers with DS. (xH certainly has, but the judge warned us early on to not discuss any of this with the kids). I have discussed lying and keeping secrets with DS, since I found out he was lying about something important and had decided to keep it from me. So I tried to use that example to make a broader point. I do believe I will drop a hint about his dad showing text threads between the two of them - not sure how I'm going to bring that up. I feel like DS thinks this is all over - that he pulled one over on me and kept me in the dark. I'm not sure he realizes how much I know of what he's said. I do need to find a way to make him realize that this is not acceptable behavior.

I see more and more of xH's manipulative and abusive behaviors being modeled by DS and it is horrifying. Certain phrases he's copied directly from xH and it's very triggering. Behaviors, mannerisms. I feel like I've lost who my son is. My son has also developed a "habit" of following me around very closely and talking to me nonstop whenever he believes I'm upset with him. This is what his dad used to do. I'm having a very hard time dealing with this. It's smothering.

I know he is unhappy. I'm not sure what I can do. I try to be here for him, but there is only so much of his new behaviors that I will tolerate.

Penny - I do believe he is projecting his dad's behaviors onto me. He knows I don't snoop - if I did, I would have confronted him about a number of things before reading about them in an affidavit.
I am doing my best, but it's getting oh so very hard. I'm not sure how many times I can be beat down by this man and still remain in tact. It needs to stop. I fell like I can't heal while this is going on. Which might be the point.

sevenyears - yes, the divorce has been final, so I was trying to discern if there was another trigger that set him off...but I came up empty. Usually around this time of year (birthdays and holidays are very triggering for him) he acts out. Maybe that's all this was? But it was so vicious and so deeply personal. He needed me to be irreparably wounded by all of this. How horrible is that?
I know DS is doing anything and everything in his power to keep dad's positive attention on him. He knows it will only last for so long, and I will be here to help him pick up the pieces when the inevitable happens.

[Stepping lightly]

Hi WH,

In response to the "why is he doing this question", we always asked that too.  We all know the PD answer.  But when I met DH, he always said the BM had created a narrative of being an abused woman, it was who she was and how she got what she wanted.  Anything that threatened that narrative (eg. me...having a happy/healthy marriage with DH) had to be be attacked.  Your ex's GF may actually be part of the reason he is lashing out, he has to prove how horrible you are to explain why he doesn't have custody of his own children.  If you aren't the bad guy, people might look in his direction, and PDs really just don't like that.  Always the victim, and you are the easy bad guy. 

I think we all know this reasoning, but we forget in the heat of the moment, it's not about "us", it's about them.

[athene1399]

I am so sorry this has been going on, WH. I know it is difficult, but when SD would say how SO was "forcing" her to see him against her will when he was following the custody agreement, we tried to remind ourselves that she was just parroting what BM was saying, or telling her to say. SD has opened up to us a bit about what happened now that she is older. SD said that she felt obligated to help out BM and said that she felt obligated to help her to get what she wanted. SD said she was too young to really understand what was going on. She was a young teenager when I started seeing SO. I think in a way SD felt she did what she had to do without being able to fully grasp what was at stake and what she was really doing/saying (that is my opinion as  she has not said this).

Was it always helpful to try to remember that she was being manipulated by BM? No. But sometimes was. We tried to remember when SD said hurtful things that it wasn't her talking; it was BM. But it is so hard to hear.

Sending positive vibes your way. This is a tough situation.

[oak_tree]

So much of all these posts is resonating. Learning from all of you. Thank you.

[Whiteheron]

Ahh, stepping, I think you're right. Although he's been seeing GF for about 2 yrs, she only just moved in with him at the beginning of the pandemic. So he would have been able to control the narrative early on, but now with her living in the house she can see how things actually are. And here I was thinking I was off the hook now that she'd moved in with him.    I have to be the bad guy - it's not him, it's me. Always 

athene- I do realize DS is being manipulated. I can see that clearly. It still hurts that DS would betray me in order to get in good standing with his dad (he's well aware that this won't last). The things that came out of DS's mouth though - and for him to tell me he didn't care when I called him out on it. Ugh. Cut like a knife. I am trying really hard to not let it affect the way I treat him, because I know he's no match for the master manipulator...and I do realize most of these words and ideas are coming straight from xH.

oak_tree - welcome, and feel free to jump in at any time - no questions/comments are too small!