Manipulation, Honesty, and Morality:

[IRedW77]

How do you feel about manipulation and honesty outside of your PD relationship(s)?

How do you feel about them in exchanges with your PD peoples?

PD's are obviously highly manipulative, but I don't know that they're always liars in the classical sense. Is it lying if you believe what you're saying—even if it obviously makes no sense?

Do you feel like you have the same moral sensibilities as most people? You didn't necessarily have normal ones modeled for you.

——————

I have a general policy of trying to be very honest with everyone. If I ever catch myself lying I try to own up and make amends right away—especially in my marriage.

I'm especially adamant about people not lying to little kids. People do this ALL the time because kids trust everything you say. I can't think of many great examples, but I'm talking about all the little shortcuts we take. Maybe, "Your show isn't on TV today" when it actually is, but you just don't want to watch it. I won't do things like that. I refuse. I'm always willing to go the extra mile to explain why something is the way it is or why they can't have what they want right now.

Just thinking about holiday time now I HATE Elf on the Shelf. I'm fundamentally morally opposed to manipulating my children's behavior like that.

I never thought in depth about why I feel these ways until I started learning about BPD. I just kind of took it on as a moral stance without much examination. The real reason is that I spent my formative years being constantly manipulated. It makes sense that I'm especially sensitive when it comes to kids.

The other reason is that I have fantastic manipulation skills (we all learned from the best) and I don't let myself use them on the general public. I especially don't use them on those closest to me.

However, all bets are off when it comes to my BPD mother. Part of managing her is stretching the truth and using all of her levers of power against her. I have no qualms about it all, and I didn't even realize I did it until recently.

Also, I have a big carve out for other people that are manipulative. I just consider it to be parrying attacks.

I recently helped a friend deal with a manipulative (compulsive lying) ex. Basically I read the incoming messages along with them and told them exactly what the ex was trying to get out of them. Then I helped them deny the ex what they were after while getting the friend what they needed for closure.

They were shocked at my proficiency at these exchanges. I just assumed it was some sort of natural talent, but now I understand where it came from. That makes me want to be even more careful with it.

As far as morality I don't feel like I necessarily have normal moral sensibilities. I think that there are a lot of things that I COULD do without feeling a normal sense of guilt (of course I feel abnormal guilt for all kinds of crazy little things). I generally just abide by the "do unto others..." rule. I follow the laws and rules of society in general, but I struggle to obey any arbitrary rules.

I'd just love to hear people's thoughts about how they were shaped by their PD parents—whether it's something you learned to do or NOT to do.

[notrightinthehead]

Sounds like you have some Superpower there! I wish I would have you on standby when dealing with some people in my life!

Seriously, you sound very self aware and congratulations on making something good out of your disfunctional upbringing.

[SparkStillLit]

Let me try to do an overall.
I tend to be ridiculously trusting that others are not lying or "up to no good", because I am not doing those things. This leaves me wide open for nastiness, obviously, so I've gotten better at paying attention to other people's behavior. I still try not to lie, or make amends if I do so. I simply don't intentionally do underhanded things to anyone, children included.
Elf on the shelf was introduced later, but it was not as a Big Brother. It was simply that they moved around and got into mischief at night. As an amusing diversion. Like, what sort of horrible (but not too horrible) trouble could they get into tonight.
I have had to learn to dodge and parry and block all kinds of BPD, but that has taken books, videos, and professional help. It's really taxing, I'm not naturally good at it.
My friends tell me I'm very honest, the BPD has said in odd moments to the kids "your mother doesn't lie" even though he tells me I lie all the time, (I ignore that, I know I don't), and friends say I'm kind and gentle and my prickly exterior isn't real and isn't even very deep.
I even keep trying to be kind to the BPDs though I don't know why I bother. It surely makes no difference. I guess it's my default setting. Maybe I should learn to shut that off!

[IRedW77]

Thank you notrightinthehead.

SparkStillLit:
As far as trust I always trust everyone as well, but I can usually just tell who's safe to trust and who isn't. Like, I can just tell meeting someone if they're ok or not.

However, there is one glaring exception!

I've had this happen exactly 3 times in life that I know of. I can't spot compulsive liars. They get past my radar. But that's part of their whole identity. You can't be a compulsive liar if you aren't good at fooling people.

I've made very good friends with 3 different compulsive liars in the course of my life. They are great at making friends because they aren't bound by truth, so they can share all the same interests you do and they tell amazing stories.

Eventually they get found out and have to disappear and find new people to lie to. It always feels embarrassing to have been fooled though.

As far as being kind to the BPD's if that's your default setting and it doesn't make a difference as you say, then don't change yourself for them. Just be your kind self as long as it isn't costing you anything.

[Janeite V]

Growing up felt like an arms race. I'd learn a tactic to deflect the abusive and manipulative behaviour, it would give me peace for a while, and then the covert narcissist would learn to adapt and find another weakness. I settled on grey rock long before I learned it was "a thing," but occasionally during moments of weakness I allowed myself to be baited. Abusive personalities are so very preoccupied with how to best abuse their specific target.

This trained me to be hyper-vigilant to any possible nefarious motives pretty much all the time. And though it is validating to occasionally save myself or someone else because of the vigilance, I hate the fact that I have to think of people in that light at all.

I definitely feel you about the mixed feelings you can have when the manipulation and lies aren't intentional and are instead based on a very warped sense of reality.

In my view, manipulation purely for personal gain (except for self-defense) is a huge red flag. Manipulation for the sake of others should be used with extreme caution because as humans we tend to look for justifications for our own desires - which is why we invented such things at the scientific method and the rule of law to bypass our own flaws.

The sort of thing that I think is "good" manipulation might be teaching a reluctant child to tidy after themselves by starting a race and getting them excited to tidy. Or calming a narcissist down with some fluffing when it can defuse a tense situation. I've even seen some chaotic good people doing things like scam-baiting, which is essentially protecting more vulnerable people by wasting scammers' time. Even then, I have a strong emotional discomfort with these things, even if I think they are neutral to good morally.