Flying monkey and a Happy New Year :)

[oak_tree]

I think I know what I need to do, but I want to articulate the struggles. Bring on the feedback/advice!

There's someone in my life who:
Defends and supports SO's abuser
Uses deception to gain info about SO's life to give to his abuser
Is complicit in keeping SO's son from him
The person is SO's D18.  Make no mistake, she is also lovely in so many ways and she has so many struggles of her own. I'm listing what I'm struggling with. How do I have a good relationship with someone I can't trust?
 
Another struggle is one I've brought up before and got really good advice, thank you. This is sort of a follow-up: How do you balance being positive about uNPD mom vs continuing the enabling? For example, how would you suggest responding when a teen says, "Mom can be so selfish sometimes. Yesterday she did xyz..." 

And one last thing that just breaks my heart: Neither of the kids did anything for their dad for Christmas. And it's not a cultural thing - normally they'd do something. I know they probably have pressures not to say anything about SO at their uNPD mom's, but still. Nothing? Not even a card? On the upside, SO's S(teen) said of the gift he received from SO: "I literally can't imagine a better gift"   He has a very innocent sincerity to him which is heartwarming, and the comment made SO so happy, of course - probably the best gift SO could have received anyway!

I hope everyone had a calmer and happier holiday season than they expected   Wishing everyone here a peaceful and joyful New Year. 

[Penny Lane]

This is really tough! You are not alone here.

I think you can love and support the kids while setting boundaries about their behavior toward you. We've never asked the kids not to tell their mom something, although we have withheld stuff that we (especially DH) really didn't want them to know. But if they are lying to us to get information for her? Yeah, that's a definitely boundary issue. You don't even really have to address the second part, you treat it like you would lying. For us that's natural consequences. The consequence of lying to us is that we don't trust you. Not only are we disappointed in you, but also the next time you ask for something that requires trust, the answer is no. You could start implementing that sort of thing. You can't stop her from providing information to the mom, but you CAN deal with the lying.

And that's how you address all the bad behavior regarding the mom. What boundaries do you have? If she's defending her mom, maybe your boundary is that you don't bring up mom at all because that's too painful, particularly for your SO. It doesn't have to be punitive. But it does have to make the situation more liveable for you.

These are imperfect solutions to a terrible situation. You really need to approach it with a lot of love and understanding, because even if she doesn't know it the daughter is a victim of the behavior too. She knows she shouldn't be spying on dad for mom, and I'm sure she doesn't like it. But the fact is that she is an adult who is choosing to lie and you can lovingly, sadly impose the consequences of that action.

About positivity toward the mom: I would say (and maybe I didn't make this clear before) the goal is not relentless positivity toward the mom from you. The goal is that you are not the source of negativity toward the mom. Whatever they're feeling about their mom, you can affirm it. If it's something really negative, like "mom is so selfish" you don't necessarily need to match their level of unhappiness. But you can let them know you hear them and you see their feelings. "I'm sorry, I wouldn't like that either" or "it sounds like you're really disappointed by (her action)" or whatever. This gives them some space to express their feelings about whatever it is without feeling like they have to say one thing or another to appease you. And in fact the reason that you stay positive about the mom at other times, is so that the kids will feel comfortable coming to you about the bad stuff. They know that you're not just looking to jump at a chance to badmouth their mom - and that gives them a safe space to talk to you about it. The fact that they will say this to you at all is great!

I don't have a lot of advice about Christmas presents. We don't really expect the kids to get us stuff. Usually DH and I include the kids in whatever present we get each other. Their mom used to say that she was going to buy presents for DH with the kids. She never did UNTIL the Christmas after I met them, when she sent beautifully wrapped presents that are not to his taste at all, that in fact are things that SHE likes. That was the only year and she never did it again. If you have this kind of relationship, you can encourage the kids or facilitate their gifts to their dad. But like I said we don't really expect gifts to the parents from the kids. Maybe this is upbringing; when I first started getting my parents Christmas gifts I felt like it was a very grownup thing to do.

[Stepping lightly]

Hi Oak,

You are in a tough situation, it's hard when you don't trust someone in your own household.  PLs response was pretty spot on (usually is!). 

The one thing we always have to keep in mind is that we don't truly know what is happening at mom's house.  PDs can be crafty about getting information or manipulating their kids, so it is possible that D feels like she needs to team up with her mom and help her.  My DSD is the golden child, so we just know we have to be thoughtful about things we say around her that we don't want immediately going into BM's ear.  It's hard and frustrating at times, but "it is what it is".

As far as the comments about their mom, again I agree with PL.  You don't have to give the comments much weight, but a "I'm sorry to hear that" will hopefully make her feel validated but not defensive.  Just leave it there...it will make her feel safe with bouncing these comments off of you without having to get into a lengthy discussion about her mother.  To be honest, when DSD has done this, there have been times where I said, "I understand why you feel that way, but your mom had a good reason to XXX".  We were once told in regards to BM, "you don't lose points for being nice", and I think it helps the kids see that our life mission isn't to contradict BM (even though it feels that way sometimes).

That all being said, there ARE times we will flat out say "that is NOT ok".  Recently DSD made a really nasty comment to DSS in front of us, and he responded with "shut up- now you are just parroting mom" (not the first time this has happened).  The comment was very nasty, untrue things about DSS and DH flat out said to DSS, "That comment is not true and it is not ok for anyone to say that to you".  DSD got mad, but we refuse to allow that treatment in our home.  BM is on a mission to prove terrible things about DSS (imo to project her mental illness on someone else), and she says horrible things to his face about him, it's not ok.  He is simply the sweetest kid and we are going to call out treatment that is abusive when it is thrown in front of us.

[oak_tree]

Thank you both!

My struggle was more about having someone in my life I don't entirely trust, not as much about how to address the specific behaviors (though those tips will definitely come in handy!) I think I was blurring the Step-mom/stepdaughter-type relationship with a regular friendship, and probably putting too much pressure on both of us. Neither of us chose this, and we come into the relationship with very different perspectives. But that doesn't mean we can't get along and enjoy each other's company. We normally avoid controversial topics so that no one feels defensive or backed into a corner. And I know both kids are under immense pressure to be "loyal" to BM, in whatever way she wants. The fact that at 18 DSD still hangs out with us is a small miracle, and I'm pleased, especially for SO

And yeah, regarding the negative comments made by DSD and DSS, I think I zeroed in a little too much on the "light touch" and being positive. It only makes sense to make sure they know we hear their feelings. They certainly feel comfortable mentioning BM in passing so they know we're not jumping at opportunities to put her down - quite the contrary, SO sometimes recalls fun stories to them that include BM.

Re Christmas: In their family, normally the kids would give gifts to their parents. The gifts would be hand made/crafts, not bought. I was brought up the same way, so it was a bit jarring to see the kids come over with nothing at all.  I know, it's really not a big deal compared to some of the problems out there, it was just sad to see - they're missing out on that joy of seeing someone appreciate something they've made.

Thanks again - it's so good to know there are people who have so much experience with these issues. Court is likely coming. I'm dreading it, and it makes such a difference to know this group is here

[Penny Lane]

My struggle was more about having someone in my life I don't entirely trust, not as much about how to address the specific behaviors (though those tips will definitely come in handy!)

Wellll ... I have no advice about that. It sucks. It sounds like you've figured out somewhat of a path forward. Maybe it'll get easier over the years as you settle into an equilibrium with the kids. In my experience it really took a long time for our relationship to settle into its final form. But yeah, it'll probably always be hard and it's ok if you set up some boundaries (with her or just within yourself) because of it. Not super helpful, I know, I'm sorry!

[athene1399]

I cannot imagine what it must feel like to have trust issues with SO's D. That must be difficult. I am sorry you are dealing with this.

[oak_tree]

Thank you all for your words of wisdom and support, it's much appreciated