Comparing VLC and NC options with (currently) covert NPDm and highly toxic FOO

[SeaSalt]

I am not sure whats the lesser of two evils. Can anyone relate and help me decide please.

VLC is what I do currently. (contact by texts every 2 months, a call once or twice a year, physical meeting only at funerals and wedding surrounded by many people, never entering their home, never letting them in my home. I live 15h hours drive away).

Positive side of a VLC for me:
-no rage from my NPDm.
-Civilized behavior during the minimal contact.
-Mostly respecting my boundaries.
-Discrete smear campaign.
-No issues with extended family.
-I am being informed when someone passes away or something important happens.

Negative side of a VLC:
-slowly but surely sucking me back in (and once I am in, the hell starts over again)
-very patiently and slowly they manage to get more info about me and my family without me even realizing that I am giving them info I should not (such as my address);
-I am physically ill after each contact.  When they ask if they could visit (I refuse each time) it cost me 10 days in bed very sick.
-negative thoughts, no desire for sexual pleasure after having any contact with my FOO

Positive side of NC:
-no panic attacks
-no sickness
-moving on with my life
-enjoying life including sexuality

Negative side of NC:
1) feeling of not having idea when the next attack will happen (not being able to get prepared)
2) not being informed when someone in the extended family passes away or something important happens
3) not being able to go to my hometown since I don't want to meet them by accident
4) extensive and elaborated smear campaign
5) flying monkeys

I already been NC once for 2y. It helped me a lot to heal. I went NC when my body physically rejected them to the max. When I had no other choice. I start to feel the same again. I know only a part of what they did to me, but whatever they did that I don't remember must be really strong since my body can not stand their presence or their voice. I heard that body has a memory on its own and my body tells me to stay away forever.

This time when I go NC, all the negative points will be easier to manage.
1) Someone once wrote me here in this forum that i don't need to prepare for their attacks, that I know that I will be able to manage anything that comes. I will find the solution in the moment, no need to worry about it before it happens. And that was a great advice.
2) I use social media much more now and see the news about extended family and old friends there, also I have more contact with some distant cousins now that are not under my mothers control, so I can find out things through them as well
3) this one is hard. not being able to go to my hometown. i could still go and deal with the situation if it happens to meet them. i can go in the parts where I know they dont go often. i dont know how to overcome this one.
4) by doing smear campaign against me, my mother is just talking bad about herself. luckly i have a great reputation, even my own youtube channel where people can see that I am normal. i worked very hard to build a very successful career and people respect that a lot. i am independent and have a solid happy marriage and a fantastic child. good luck destroying my image, I dont think it will be that easy.
5) this time there will not be many flying monkeys since i now learned better who is who and stay away from my mothers minions.

Now that I wrote all this, I see that I have no excuses to not go NC. what am I waiting for?!
I have no love for my FOO. I feel no attachment. When they don't contact, I don't even think of them anymore. My life has nothing to do with them.
Why am I not NC than already? what am I afraid of? Maybe having a VLC gives me an illusion of a certain control over the situation?
I gave up hope that they will change.  So its not hope, its not emotional attachment since there is none. I think its fear. But fear of what? of her rages? she does no rages toward me at all when I am VLC. maybe I am affraid that she will come where I live and make a drama at my work, but this is highly unlikely. I live in a state where she does not speak the language. the receptions at my work is my friend, she knows about my mother, she would call police if my mother would show up. my fears are unreasonable.
Thank you in advance for any insight. You guys here are life saviours.

[Starboard Song]

So let's look at it:
- Six times a year you interact via text
- Twice a year you interact by phone
- Once every year or two you interact at a family function beyond your control

There are two kinds of problems in your 4 listed negatives. The first two is that you find it difficult to stick to your own boundaries: you slowly get sucked in, and you reveal things you don't mean to reveal. The latter two are terrible sort of PTSD responses that you endure after every interaction.

I gotta say, NC doesn't make the last ugly go away. They will still be there. They will be at those weddings and funerals and such. There will be flying monkeys. And yes, there will be little interactions where you can get sucked in.

Your goal is not to be vindicated, or to persuade or to improve them, or to punish. Your only goal should be your own peace.

I suspect that, working closely with your FOC, you can make inroads on the first two negatives. There is no need to get sucked in: it is hard but you can maintain your boundaries. And "slowly but surely" can be a thing of the past.

The latter two -- the PTSD responses -- those won't be eliminated by going NC. Depending on how entangled you are (through kids of your own or common family and friends), you are going to be confronted. And NC ratchet's up their fury.

I am 5 years NC, so I do not condemn the NC decision when it is required. But I do encourage you to try to minimize and manage negatives of VLC, rather than trade them for the negatives of NC.

[lightworld]

Hi Seasalt your dilemma is so familiar to me. I spent many years VLC/MC and many times during those years  I have been sure it was time to go NC but have on each occasion decided to *stick it out*

I found that,as well as the drama and abuse suffered by having contact with NF I also struggled with feeling I needed to *DO* something about it, like go NC.  In the end NC just sort of happened naturally. It was just one more run of the mill upset but I just knew this time I'd reached the end and I made the choice, terrifying though it was.

It was never easy and there are always issues as Starboard Song says. I think there always will be unless you wanted to start again with a new identity!! 

In the end we all fo!low our own paths to healing but I wonder if possibly you might find that you'll know if and when the time comes to go NC.

[SeaSalt]

Thank you so much Starboard song and Lightworld. It always amazes me in this forum how total strangers give me more support than my FOO had ever given me. It is healing even to see that someone thinks that my post is worthy of taking time to answer. I was sure that nobody would answer, my self-confidence was at very low these days. Thank you so much for your time and effort.

Starboard I appreciate a lot your insights. I agree with what your wrote that: "There are two kinds of problems in your 4 listed negatives. The first two is that I find it difficult to stick to my own boundaries. "This comes from the fact that I tend to see positive in people (it took me 30y to see my FOO for who they are). So if I see they do efforts to behave, they say the right thing, etc. I start softening up. I know they didn't change, I know its just a strategy. I really know it but I still start to react as if they were some normal people doing a nice small talk with me. I consciously decide to not remind myself of all the abuse, all the nightmare I lived with them and I focus on last few nice things they said. Its a real problem. I have to change this  way of mine of focusing on one nice (fake) thing and the incredible ability I developed over 30y to ignore too well the elephant in the room. 

The latter two are terrible sort of PTSD responses that you endure after every interaction. Thank you for reminding me that. I will address it with my therapists.

I gotta say, NC doesn't make the last ugly go away. They will still be there. They will be at those weddings and funerals and such. There will be flying monkeys. And yes, there will be little interactions where you can get sucked in. Well after the last funeral I felt so sick that I seriously consider not going anymore to any. My mental and physical health is more important than respect I need to pay to the people that ignored the ongoing child abuse I endured in front of their eyes for so long. The corona restrictions are the perfect excuse, I plan on skipping all the weddings and funerals. The price for me to pay is to high.

Your goal is not to be vindicated, or to persuade or to improve them, or to punish. Your only goal should be your own peace. I dont want to vindicate myself. I wish them good health and all the best, just far away from me. Nothing can improve them. I tried for so many years. I have no doubts about the fact that they will never change as they never did in all their life, not for a tiny bit. I don't want to punish them neither. My only wrong motivation sometimes is that  I would love to scream in their face: Hey bit**es you did not destroy me! I am still here and live and happy despite all your efforts to knock me down! But any time I show off, it motivates them more into looking for any possible new ways to achieve my misery.  Thats just sometimes. My main motivation is wanting peace, which I have most of the times. when I dont have any contact with them.

The latter two -- the PTSD responses -- those won't be eliminated by going NC. Depending on how entangled you are (through kids of your own or common family and friends), you are going to be confronted. And NC ratchet's up their fury. I am not very entangled. I live far away in (to them) very foreign country. I go to my home country every several years. I did not teach my child my mother tongue to be sure that my NPDm will not be able to communicate every with my child. I used to miss a lot my extended family and craved contact with them but since my last NC and all the FMs, I see them now differently and as extended hands of my mother so I don't have much to loose there, only gain by cutting those ties with the extended family.

I am now elaborating an idea to slowly fade into NC. I am thinking that I should stop any physical contact: no funerals, no weddings, no any kind of physical contact. no phone calls. ever. just keep some short bland grey rock text (as answers to theirs, never initiated by myself, of course). This will drive my mother crazy and eventually she will push for more and if she does not get it, she will give me the silent treatment. which will be the start of the new NC. I believe that NC will cause their rage if I announce it but if I just refuse every time everything without ever making a statement that this is permanent, they will keep their hope up until one day we will total strangers. no?
so this plan of mine would be something like VVLC almost NC that would happen gradually hopefully managing to avoid my mothers rage. And even if she rages, I wont be there to see it or hear it. Its similar to what is happening now. I am sure that my mother has some new victim and rages with the new victim but I dont know when and who is the victim and I am not there to suffer that situation anymore, so it does not affect me.

My therapist thinks I should state to my FOO clearly my boundaries, like write them down and send the text, confront them. I don't want to do that. It would show to my FOO my vulnerability. I do not want that. It would show my nNPDm that I thought of her and that I give her importance (even if negative attention, she will supply herself with this). No way I am not going that road anymore. I did it past many times, I opened up, spoke my mind, etc. and it only made it worse. Ignoring them, thinking of anything else is the best shield from them.
If my FOO would know that they are on my mind, they would drill on it maximally. No way. Sometimes my mother wrote me also stuff like this: "if for you its too painful to have a contact with me, you don't have to force yourself, I love you and I will understand it and respect it." this is so twisted. the moment I say: "yes for me its too much", she turns it all against me, calls me names, tell everyone that I went insane. Its like if she would want me to announce NC so that she can have a proof that I lost my mind. she is inviting me to do so just so that she can turn it against me.

I don't want to bother you with all this. I write it down here so that I don't forget myself when I doubt my decisions.
Thank you for reading.

[Starboard Song]

You are no bother at all. You are thinking through things very well.

Your "fade to NC" idea is a good one. Good luck!

Be good. Be strong. Your story is valuable, and you are too.

[DistanceNotDefense]

I don't want to bother you with all this. I write it down here so that I don't forget myself when I doubt my decisions.
Thank you for reading.

SeaSalt, you are not a bother at all! Thank you so much for sharing your decision process with us here at the forum. I for one appreciate it to the extreme. The way you are going about it reminds me of where I was at before deciding to go NC (some may say it is still actually VLC as I do read messages and texts) and how I was thinking of going about it. I tried to go about it in a very logical way, combing through the details and the pluses and minuses, and I think that is very smart. I have a lot to say and a lot of thoughts about going through the process this way because I went through it myself, just recently, so apologies if this gets kind of long.

I think you're spot-on that it's like choosing between two evils. You're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. The tough thing about weighing the options is there isn't a "right" decision, and it's awful to think we even have to face a decision like this, to be pressed to make a "destructive" and less than ideal decision no matter what. Though do remind yourself: you aren't the source of the wrongness or destruction in this situation. The mental illness of PD is. Eventually, we need to work on forgiving ourselves for this.

But because of this, you actually have a lot of freedom: because there is no "right" decision, there is really only a decision that is right for *you.* Only you will know what that is. Some will validate you in that decision and some will not. It does sound like you wish to go NC and you're swinging strongly in that direction. Looking at your pros and cons, and even how you have talked to yourself that NC cons aren't actually that bad, logically NC seems like the better choice and what you want to do. The hardest part of actually going NC and sticking with it is that it might be the perfect choice for you, but you will find very little validation for it....and that seems to be what you are seeking here. Part of the journey though, I have felt, is learning how to validate myself and get back in touch with my gut feelings, while trying to suss out gut feelings from pure trauma responses that can be destructive. The voice of our gut instincts has been dampened by family mental illness, and I see this is a way of getting back in touch.

I also have to throw in there that looking over the situation with pure logic, and weighing out the pros and cons, can really narrow down the scope of the problem too much. You really do have to take into account how you feel and the emotional aspect when making a choice. What about your heart? Your inner child? For a lot of us that survived abusive PD families, we are diagnosed with CPTSD. Our families have a hold on us emotionally in ways that people who were not raised in those families will *never* understand, and for which logic is just half the approach to healing from (and a rather deflated one if that's all you use, and especially if an outsider to your own emotions is only giving you logical advice).

PD's in our FOO know how to pull on the strings and push our buttons more than anyone else. We know them better than anyone else. They even to some extent installed those mechanisms there. So, I mean, how do you ever have a chance to heal from something like that and develop a strong sense of self? You can do it by creating a life with new parameters for safety from that behavior, and achieving that is different for every individual. The beauty is that you (and only you) get to define safety for you, only you. I went about it with pure "logic" for a really long time, but broke down because my inner child was screaming for distance and safety, and I had to listen to them. And what do you do when a child screams and is worried? You don't say "well that's illogical there is obviously no threat." No. You protect them. (And I would argue that saying something like that is a bit retraumatizing, and this is indeed traumatizing to your self if you talk to yourself in that way and that way only.)

Think of a very different case of PTSD: a Vietnam war vet. You could say, "how could you abruptly move out of your house and leave that job, and everything you knew? What a destructive choice! It doesn't take into account about how the rest of their family feels at all!" When they lived next door to a quarry where dynamite blasts may happen without a moments notice. It's true that that is a destructive choice they may regret, and the other family members may struggle with that; but it removes the actual wellbeing and priority of the spiritually injured individual from the entire equation, and what *really matters in life*: safety, peace, and spiritual/emotional/mental health (as well as physical, which ties into those other fields of health more than we know). I think the mental torture and suffering that leads people like us to this forum is far more deadly (and inconveniently invisible!) than the inconvenience and fear of having to move your entire life, or dealing with someone deciding they're just not going to be what you want anymore. I personally think sufferers of CPTSD (which it sounds like you may have) need to build a safe life where they can de-adrenalize, and then they can take stock of a logical approach to the situation afterwards, otherwise it is all for naught. But again that's just me.

I agree with Starboard that one of these options for building safety could be to keep up VLC and work on boundaries. Do it as long as you feel like you can build safety and relative peacefulness in the meantime. Don't beat yourself up if you find that your boundaries simply cannot and will not be respected by them though. You've been conditioned since birth that family has a right to walk all over boundaries to get their needs met from you at your expense, and that is a very hard thing to overcome, because it's been literally installed into you. It is not your fault, not a sign of weakness, not a "wrong choice," nor a character failing if you cannot keep them up. It does not mean you failed to have a relationship with your family, it is not on you to heal what they cannot heal in themselves and their destructive relational ways. But if you try it, it could work. Just don't be surprised if you cut a vine that it tries to grow up your wall again. Crossing boundaries is how people like this have survived, and you can't be surprised or necessarily blame them when they do what they've always done. You have to be really strong and really zen.

When I was still in contact, I managed some boundaries effortlessly, some with some struggle, and then some seemed downright impossible. Even when I fell out of contact (basically just asking for space from my family after a confrontation without calling it NC) they couldn't even respect this. They acted like everything was "just fine" and continued to message/text/interact on social media like nothing was happening, sweep the issue under the rug, and stay a part of my life and nose into my business. Leading up to this point every boundary I set, I was guilted and punished for, very covertly and passive-aggressively. Every time they did I would feel sick, dreadful, or have a panic attack. I could not feel OK, they were dead set on breaking me completely down - and if you think a "ratcheted up" NC response is bad and scary, the LC "boundary war" I went through was harrowing, and I have preferred hiding out in the NC bunker rather then be out on the open field. They would literally ramp things up the more boundaries I put in place and the more I stuck to them successfully.

This led to a form of something closer to NC as I refused to JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) but still wanted my sanity, so I blocked them. I asked for space the one time, I would not repeat it again. I told them how they could get in touch with me, they refused to do it that way. I think this is a good example of a failure of basic boundaries being respected turning into NC in a natural, organic way. In response they are giving me Silent Treatment (an emotionally abusive tactic) while hoovering on holidays. I just don't respond any longer. I started with a VLC approach before cutting off ties even further, and very slowly, implementally, went NC to protect my safety, peace, and mental health first and foremost.

So if holding boundaries just isn't possible, then NC is also a great option. Your safety and emotional wellbeing are paramount. Only you know where youre at with that, SeaSalt. The biggest "con" of NC is just feeling like you have the right to do it, period, and being scared of how family might react....but if they have no contact point with you, how will they do that? You're the one in control. I still struggle with this but the logical side of me feels like I had the absolute 100% right to do NC to protect myself and after all I tried, to be cordial but happy with a mentally ill family, dead set on rending my life apart so they could look good and stable.

And regarding panic attacks etc.: I can say from my own experience, my PTSD responses have dramatically decreased since (but that is just what worked out for me), but my issues also have not 100% gone away. Way less panic attacks the more and more I realize I am truly safe and becoming myself, I mostly just deal with grief and depression but that is on the mend too. I would say that I deal with a lot less emotional triggers/sickness issues and more of a sense of general anxiety from time to time, which is way better for me. But that's just me, it may not be that way for you. I still do think about family every day and I'm sometimes struck with guilt, and I get depressed, I think about how they must feel (though I realize they're not thinking about how I feel at all), but it beats hypervigilance 24/7 and constantly trying to decipher FOO's behaviors and intentions, which was starting to happen with every.single.contact.

And to be completely honest: I sometimes feel emotions of personal vindication, wanting to persuade family through my actions of going NC, or hoping that they are getting what they "deserve" (a karmic "lesson" in their own lives about the consequences of their actions, not so much punishment). I personally think it is OK to *feel* those things. Emotions should not be suppressed, we with CPTSD deal with enough of that already. But I don't *act* on those emotions to those ends or towards them. These are emotions of anger, and it is OK and healthy to feel anger as long as it is channeled into self-protection (not revenge) and to help you combat guilt about trying to find more peace in your life. I allow myself to feel these emotions and release them in healthy ways (a hot bath, journaling, competitive board game, etc.) as I continue on my journey toward better peace and a better relationship with my emotional inner self and its well-being. I think having nothing but feelings of peace and good will towards abusers, while it's ideal and the ultimate sign of being a bigger and better person, is not always healthy.  Personally I believe emotions like anger exist for these exact purposes and situations: to protect ourselves, but not to hurt or control others.

First we need to work on forgiving ourselves for what we must do to feel healthy and sane. Then we can work on forgiving FOO with PD's. We need to always put ourselves first so we can heal from being raised by people who put us last.

[SeaSalt]

Thank you so much DistanceNotDefence. Your msg helped me so much yesterday, the lowest day in a long time. Thank you very very much. Only people here can truly understand how does it feel. Its just amazing to know that someone understands this twisted and surreal situation we live with the toxic FOO.

You say you still read msgs. Do you answer them as well? are they nasty msgs? when I went NC years go during the 2y of NC I was asking my friends to delete msg without me reading them. I think this time once it becomes clear that I am going NC, I will eventually block them on the phone so that I dont even read it. I think it will be healthier for me since my mothers msg can be incredibly nasty.

I have a lot to say and a lot of thoughts about going through the process this way because I went through it myself, just recently, so apologies if this gets kind of long. Please dont apologize, its so helpful every word you write.

I think you're spot-on that it's like choosing between two evils. You're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. The tough thing about weighing the options is there isn't a "right" decision, and it's awful to think we even have to face a decision like this, to be pressed to make a "destructive" and less than ideal decision no matter what. Though do remind yourself: you aren't the source of the wrongness or destruction in this situation. The mental illness of PD is. Eventually, we need to work on forgiving ourselves for this. This is so true. It has been so strong as an experience that it pushed me on a spiritual path and I truly believe now that we are souls that live many lives and that we choose this reincarnation to be this way, that we choose PDs in our lives since we were ambitious souls that wanted to grow fast. Thanx to our PDs we are learning so much, pushing our limits so much. Having a NPD parent in your life is in my experience equivalent of having been in a cult or prison, having lived the war and many other strong experiences all at once. I always believed in reincarnation since i was a little child even though nobody around me believed it, I don't even know where this thought came from since I grow up in a very closed minded and traditional environment where no one was allowed to think anything different than what catholic church was teaching us. I truly believe that in another life me and my mother will be able to continue the relationshio that in this life we can not have. Maybe we will be sisters or I don't know which relationship, but believing this gives me peace and hope and helps me to stay away from her and protect myself in this life.

You notice well DistanceNotDefence that I do feel now that NC is the best choice for me. This time its easier since I have a good therapists that supports me and some friends that understand my situation as well and are supportive and this forum. my FOC is supportive too. so this time I dont feel alone in this and in a way a feel validated from those that matter since my FOO will never be able to understand any of my decisions, so I stopped hoping for it.

I also have to throw in there that looking over the situation with pure logic, and weighing out the pros and cons, can really narrow down the scope of the problem too much. You really do have to take into account how you feel and the emotional aspect when making a choice. What about your heart? Your inner child? For a lot of us that survived abusive PD families, we are diagnosed with CPTSD. Our families have a hold on us emotionally in ways that people who were not raised in those families will *never* understand, and for which logic is just half the approach to healing from (and a rather deflated one if that's all you use, and especially if an outsider to your own emotions is only giving you logical advice).
I agree 100% with this. I actually started this Out of the FOG journey many years ago, the first time 20y ago when I stood against my mother for the first time. than I really went Out of the FOG about 10y ago when I read Toxic parents book. And some time before my first NC I learned in therapy that I need to let go of my imaginary mother. That was extremely emotionaly hard. I felt like if my mother was dead. The one I imagined all my life that I had but was just in my imagination. The issue was that I was associating this imaginary mother with my real NPD mother so I was putting myself in danger each time when I was missing my imaginary mother. It was the most painful experience in my life but I managed to let go of her. It was so strange since there was no funeral and nobody knew about it but I survived it, grieved it and went to all the stages of when you loose a loved one. Since than I am not attached anymore emotionally to my NPDm.
I do have complex PTSD, thats for sure. it was the only thing that explained all my symptoms. But one after the other I am dealing and healing and getting better.
I work on my inner child and my inner child wants me to promiss her that i will keep her away from those bad bad people. and I have to keep that promise.

PD's in our FOO know how to pull on the strings and push our buttons more than anyone else. We know them better than anyone else. They even to some extent installed those mechanisms there. So, I mean, how do you ever have a chance to heal from something like that and develop a strong sense of self? You can do it by creating a life with new parameters for safety from that behavior, and achieving that is different for every individual. The beauty is that you (and only you) get to define safety for you, only you. I went about it with pure "logic" for a really long time, but broke down because my inner child was screaming for distance and safety, and I had to listen to them. And what do you do when a child screams and is worried? You don't say "well that's illogical there is obviously no threat." No. You protect them. (And I would argue that saying something like that is a bit retraumatizing, and this is indeed traumatizing to your self if you talk to yourself in that way and that way only.)
I agree. Every time when I ignored my inner childs fear, my body would stop functioning. so in a way I feel like I have no other chooice. If i want to survive and i want to since i have my FOO, i have to keep my inner child safe so that my body, mind and soul stay healthy and strong.

Think of a very different case of PTSD: a Vietnam war vet. You could say, "how could you abruptly move out of your house and leave that job, and everything you knew? What a destructive choice! It doesn't take into account about how the rest of their family feels at all!" When they lived next door to a quarry where dynamite blasts may happen without a moments notice. It's true that that is a destructive choice they may regret, and the other family members may struggle with that; but it removes the actual wellbeing and priority of the spiritually injured individual from the entire equation, and what *really matters in life*: safety, peace, and spiritual/emotional/mental health (as well as physical, which ties into those other fields of health more than we know). I think the mental torture and suffering that leads people like us to this forum is far more deadly (and inconveniently invisible!) than the inconvenience and fear of having to move your entire life, or dealing with someone deciding they're just not going to be what you want anymore. I personally think sufferers of CPTSD (which it sounds like you may have) need to build a safe life where they can de-adrenalize, and then they can take stock of a logical approach to the situation afterwards, otherwise it is all for naught. But again that's just me.
Again, all you say its spot on for me. I agree that survivors with cPTSD have to find a safe place and recover there. I used to change many countries, languages, etc. non stop. I guess I kept my mother's legacy to keep my life crazy and unpredictable. But thanx god I stopped now. Its been 2y I live in the same place and feel settled down. I will not move from here. This country is safe, my place is safe. i have now space and time to recover. I used to be addicted of adrenaline and after the life with my mother everything seemed boring so I kept complicating it. but this is over now, thanx God. I still have to force myself to stay in the same job, to not complicate my life. I need to constantly remind myself that is fine to be peaceful, that boring can be good too and that I dont need always something new and better.

I agree with Starboard that one of these options for building safety could be to keep up VLC and work on boundaries. Do it as long as you feel like you can build safety and relative peacefulness in the meantime. Don't beat yourself up if you find that your boundaries simply cannot and will not be respected by them though. You've been conditioned since birth that family has a right to walk all over boundaries to get their needs met from you at your expense, and that is a very hard thing to overcome, because it's been literally installed into you. It is not your fault, not a sign of weakness, not a "wrong choice," nor a character failing if you cannot keep them up. It does not mean you failed to have a relationship with your family, it is not on you to heal what they cannot heal in themselves and their destructive relational ways. But if you try it, it could work. Just don't be surprised if you cut a vine that it tries to grow up your wall again. Crossing boundaries is how people like this have survived, and you can't be surprised or necessarily blame them when they do what they've always done. You have to be really strong and really zen. I will stop taking any calls or ever seeing them. But with the texts, I will see. As long as I can deal with them, I ll read them. when it becomes too much, I will block them. I know my mother. she knows me. you said it well. she will use any tactics possible and if the texts are the only way of communication, they will be unpredictable and nasty, for sure. but i will do it gradually since its what resonates now with me the best.

When I was still in contact, I managed some boundaries effortlessly, some with some struggle, and then some seemed downright impossible. Even when I fell out of contact (basically just asking for space from my family after a confrontation without calling it NC) they couldn't even respect this. They acted like everything was "just fine" and continued to message/text/interact on social media like nothing was happening, sweep the issue under the rug, and stay a part of my life and nose into my business. Leading up to this point every boundary I set, I was guilted and punished for, very covertly and passive-aggressively. Every time they did I would feel sick, dreadful, or have a panic attack. I could not feel OK, they were dead set on breaking me completely down - and if you think a "ratcheted up" NC response is bad and scary, the LC "boundary war" I went through was harrowing, and I have preferred hiding out in the NC bunker rather then be out on the open field. They would literally ramp things up the more boundaries I put in place and the more I stuck to them successfully. O I can understand this so well. the first time I went NC, i did not read msg, as I said, I asked my friends or DH to delete them before reading. I did not want any news about them from the FMs. I was managing it well. than she showed up. they drove 15h and she waited in the hotel nearby my place while my brother came to my doorstep. i had a chat with my brother trying to explain why i can not and will not see my mother. my brother told me that mother is threatening (again) with suicide if I dont see her. i told him I wished she would finally kill herself instead of kilingus all with her threads. when he left, I know we had 30min max before she would come to the door and force me to see her. she loves forcing me into things i dont want. So i packed just few basic things and we left. we had no money at that time and no car but used the last money we had to rent a car and go to my BIL. when my mother understood that I left and that her mission failed, she changed completely. she did not want any contact with me anymore and she started making party after party and put this mask of the happiest family in the world. Leaving her there without seeing me and letting her drive 2 days for nothing, gave me so much power. It was hard in the moment but was the best decision ever. Now she knows that I am capable of calling police or anything it takes to protect myself and my FOC from her.

This led to a form of something closer to NC as I refused to JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) but still wanted my sanity, so I blocked them. I asked for space the one time, I would not repeat it again. I told them how they could get in touch with me, they refused to do it that way. I think this is a good example of a failure of basic boundaries being respected turning into NC in a natural, organic way. In response they are giving me Silent Treatment (an emotionally abusive tactic) while hoovering on holidays. I just don't respond any longer. I started with a VLC approach before cutting off ties even further, and very slowly, implementally, went NC to protect my safety, peace, and mental health first and foremost. This is exactly what I expect will happen in my case as well. if you feel down during holiday, keep writing here, we are here for you. we can go through this together.

So if holding boundaries just isn't possible, then NC is also a great option. Your safety and emotional wellbeing are paramount. Only you know where youre at with that, SeaSalt. The biggest "con" of NC is just feeling like you have the right to do it, period, and being scared of how family might react....but if they have no contact point with you, how will they do that? You're the one in control. I still struggle with this but the logical side of me feels like I had the absolute 100% right to do NC to protect myself and after all I tried, to be cordial but happy with a mentally ill family, dead set on rending my life apart so they could look good and stable. exactly, thank you for your words and sharing your experience. its valuable to me.

And regarding panic attacks etc.: I can say from my own experience, my PTSD responses have dramatically decreased since (but that is just what worked out for me), but my issues also have not 100% gone away. Way less panic attacks the more and more I realize I am truly safe and becoming myself, I mostly just deal with grief and depression but that is on the mend too. I would say that I deal with a lot less emotional triggers/sickness issues and more of a sense of general anxiety from time to time, which is way better for me. But that's just me, it may not be that way for you. since I was NC and VLC, me too i have far less symptoms. i solved issue with food, with depression, panic attacks, obsessions, etc. still some sypotoms to deal with but slowly one after the other with therapy is getting better.

I still do think about family every day and I'm sometimes struck with guilt, and I get depressed, I think about how they must feel (though I realize they're not thinking about how I feel at all), but it beats hypervigilance 24/7 and constantly trying to decipher FOO's behaviors and intentions, which was starting to happen with every.single.contact. For my the best moment in my life was when I stopped thinking of them. Most of the days I do not think of them. if you see my posts in the forum, they are very far a part because most of the days my FOO is not on my mind. and you can get there too. you can stop thinking of them. 2 strategies you can use: 1) you can reprogram yourself that when you start thinking of your PD person, that you will automatically start thinking of a someone positive in your life. In my case I decided that every time i think of my NPD mother and start fighting in my mind with her, i would think about my high school best friend. in case cases i would force myself to remember something about my friend, in some cases i would call her but i did it so many times but eventually when the though of my mother case, immediately i would think of my friend and the thought of my mother was gone. its amazing. so freeing. I hope it can help you too to implement this strategy. 2) you can decide that every sunday, for example, you will think of your FOO and write letters to your emotions, cry, and anything you need to do but the rest of the time, you allow yourself to not think of them. this way, you can spend many days in a crazy-free time.
My FOO I know for fact does not give a heck about me and they barely ever think of me. they only see themselves. you dont need to worry how they feel. they have no empathy, they do not suffer the way a normal person would. this lack of empathy in NPDs is a torture but a blessing as well once we are NC.

And to be completely honest: I sometimes feel emotions of personal vindication, wanting to persuade family through my actions of going NC, or hoping that they are getting what they "deserve" (a karmic "lesson" in their own lives about the consequences of their actions, not so much punishment). I personally think it is OK to *feel* those things. Emotions should not be suppressed, we with CPTSD deal with enough of that already. But I don't *act* on those emotions to those ends or towards them. These are emotions of anger, and it is OK and healthy to feel anger as long as it is channeled into self-protection (not revenge) and to help you combat guilt about trying to find more peace in your life. I allow myself to feel these emotions and release them in healthy ways (a hot bath, journaling, competitive board game, etc.) as I continue on my journey toward better peace and a better relationship with my emotional inner self and its well-being. I think having nothing but feelings of peace and good will towards abusers, while it's ideal and the ultimate sign of being a bigger and better person, is not always healthy.  Personally I believe emotions like anger exist for these exact purposes and situations: to protect ourselves, but not to hurt or control others. I agree perfectly. Anger was my strongers emotions and i think it was there to protect me and to show me where are my limits. i wrote letters to my anger and that was very helpful. my anger calmed down when i finally gave it space.
I think, too, that feeling angry is normal. and even wanting to punish them its normal. its a sign of healing I think since we were programs to always take the abuse and accept the abuse.even being able to be angry toward the abusers and wanting to punish them, seems to me like a good sign of healing and progress.

First we need to work on forgiving ourselves for what we must do to feel healthy and sane. Then we can work on forgiving FOO with PD's. We need to always put ourselves first so we can heal from being raised by people who put us last. Such a powerful word. I always focus on forgiving them but i never think of forgiving mself. I will work on that.

Thank you again DistanceNotdefense for your precious msg. I appreciate a lot your support and wish you peaceful holidays.

[DistanceNotDefense]

SeaSalt I'm really glad you appreciated the message. It was really long and I'm sorry, but I've been in your shoes and had so much to say about it!

I do read messages but I do not respond to them. One family member (a uPD sibling) is blocked on all channels, fully NC. The others, my M and other sib with flying monkeys/PD traits, are not. Text chains/message groups are blocked (all are with PD sib anyway, and sib uses groups/threads to make P-A jabs at me while other FOO pretend not to notice). They are not nasty, but they are very passive aggressive/guilting/somewhat pressuring, especially from my younger sibling. They can trigger me a lot but they also tell/show me a lot about how they're handling all this and I do feel okay/recover the next day after reading them. If they do start to get directly nasty/demanding I wouldn't hesitate to block. I think that would just confirm to me how pointless keeping the line open is and fully demonstrate how they plan to deal with PD illness moving forward, that they are just trying to get me to "submit."

I'm so sorry your M sends you nasty messages. And that she tried to ambush you like that in person! (I sometimes have fear my FOO might try that). IMO that would be a perfectly reasonable excuse to block her messages forever, especially now that you don't fear an ambush! There's nothing to gain from a person who is nasty to you and feels like they don't need to apologize for it.

I also wanted to add that I think you are doing a good job listening to your gut, in questioning whether it is right or not to confront your family even though your T recommends it. The way you describe how your family would respond sounds exactly like what and how I fear mine would respond, too. I confronted mine (not in person) but got a taste of that treatment, and I realized that a full-on confrontation with them in person (or in a therapy session) would have been absolute disaster. The confrontation is exactly what they want. Negative or positive attention to the problems they create, it doesn't matter. It's oxygen to a flame. They will only continue to twist and twist and twist the facts so they get that nice adrenaline kick from "vanquishing a threat" (not realizing that they are in fact mentally ill and being abusive).

"I still have to force myself to stay in the same job, to not complicate my life. I need to constantly remind myself that is fine to be peaceful, that boring can be good too and that I dont need always something new and better." This has been a huge struggle for me too! I dealt with a lot of my issues by "running away." Running away/escaping feels good, I am unlearning this.

Thank you for your kind words  And amazing recommendations/suggestions! I will definitely consider them. You've been through an amazing journey SeaSalt, you sound strong, and like you have some great options before you that you can choose to be happier. You have a supportive FOC too it sounds like, to get you through the greatest challenges. Thank you for your support too, and happy holidays!

[Stardust1982]

Hi Seasalt. Lovely name.

The answer to your question why can't you just go NC is FEAR. That's what it shows through your whole post. I realized that fear is the main emotion I also feel around my FOO. Fear is very normal to us raised by PDs. And u know what? Because we live in fear 24/7, we are very easily manipulated by the FOO. We are being manipulated EVEN after we cut ties. So many people report feeling guilty for going NC. See how strong is the programming?

If you read 'Stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist' book, you'll see there that fear is the main obstacle against moving on and living a normal life for us adults of PD parents. This emotion feels very real like you said so..your body rejects them, you have panic attacks. It feels real but I think it is not real. The fear in the body is produced by the PD's mental manipulation and lies that keep us hooked to them. See if we are kept in a state of fear, we are kept in a state of dependency to the PD parent.

Margalis in her book says that fear is created by the false belief that the parent will do something that will hurt you physically or emotionally. The idea that they will do it (at one point in the future) fucks up with the brain and controls how we act around them. But the truth is, they are not as dangerous as they want us to believe because, if they were, they'd actually have done something long ago. They are dangerous mentally yes and that's because they entertain the illusion of fear and control. These people cannot function normally with their own mental illness without having a complete and total control of the information that goes around them including-what you do, what you think, how you react and what you plan to do in the future.

That's their illness. It's fucked up yes but once you truly see these people as badly mentally injured, you'll feel better about yourself and move on from them.

I don't see my parents as enemies anymore but as victims of severe mental illnesses. I need to remind myself that they are ill each time I interact with them.

About VLC, NC.

I see you've made lists with pros and cons. But what you want to do is make a list with HOW you want to feel about yourself and your life. What are the bullet points there?

Remember that you are not supposed to be in contact with people who threaten your mental or physical health. No matter who they are. Your life belongs to you and not them. If you feel guilty at the though of NC then ask yourself where is the guilt coming from? And how do you actually deal with the programmed responsibility you've been given at birth. Do you know you've been programmed by PDs to take care of them until they die? To be their validation, sense of self and source of peace and happiness? Imagine what happens in their own diseased minds if you remove this source of happiness and peace (you) from them? Would you feel guilty about that?

So look at guilt and fear (maybe shame too) because these emotions are common with us, children of PDs.

Sincerely, I've managed to overcome the guilt of going NC-this forum helped me a lot. The guilt vanished and now I only need to deal with the fear.
My parents don't repulse me physically and I still plan to go NC with them forever. I do it for myself because I deserve to have a life that is 100% free of toxicity. I don't want half or a quarter of this life, I want the entire package.  And this means no family members, no relatives, no person who'd remind me of them or is in touch with them. (unless the person is also in NC with parents)

I know that this is cliche but you DO deserve a life that's 100% free of abusers. So many people enjoy this kind of life, why shouldn't you enjoy it as well?

take care

[treesgrowslowly]

Lots of good advice here already.

I wanted to pipe up about this therapist who suggested that you write to them, tell them how you feel and state your boundaries.

Um...no. With PDs and dysfunctional family...so may of us have tried that.

You are right. It puts you in a vulnerable position and you know it won't help.

It is sad that there are therapists who don't understand this. I want to ask these therapists - have you ever been verbally attacked by a narcissist and their flying monkeys?

Telling them (narcissists) how we feel and what we need brings out the worst in them. Why would a therapist tell someone to engage their abuser?

If you want to read more about it...a lot of us here have written about this exact advice and what we did with it. Check out older threads here or ask folks here to weigh in on this.

People have had very very good advice and guidance from therapists... and the exact other end of the spectrum as well.

The fantasy - and it is a fantasy- is that someone in a dysfunctional family will state their boundaries clearly and in a healthy manner and that this will behoove the other people to change their ways.
After years and years of engaging in super unhealthy patterns of communication and relating and emotional manipulation and denial and deception...that a letter will clear all that up???

I take a hard line on this because I've been through that fantasizing and it impeded my recovery from FOG.

Early on in my NC I had therapists validate my NC and it was the best thing they could have done. Because society in general made me feel FOG for going NC. But those first few counsellors simply accepting at face value that I had gone NC...it validated for me that I was not crazy and that helped me to eventually accept (years later) that I had an abusive parent.

The bad advice was very very bad and the good advice from therapists can be very very good. This community is full of people who are on the front lines of dealing with toxic family dynamics.

Not all therapists understand NPD or PDs. I am not sure why...at this point I think all therapists should study PDs. PDs don't change. We do. We decide on LC or VLC or MC or Grey rock or NC...

My head just shakes when I hear that a therapist has suggested that.  It suggests to me that this therapist doesn't understand PDs..because it is SO easy to end up going into JADEing.

Stay strong - as Starboard says. You are doing good for yourself.

Trees

[SeaSalt]

I confronted mine (not in person) but got a taste of that treatment, and I realized that a full-on confrontation with them in person (or in a therapy session) would have been absolute disaster. The confrontation is exactly what they want. Negative or positive attention to the problems they create, it doesn't matter. It's oxygen to a flame. They will only continue to twist and twist and twist the facts so they get that nice adrenaline kick from "vanquishing a threat" (not realizing that they are in fact mentally ill and being abusive).
You've been through an amazing journey SeaSalt, you sound strong, and like you have some great options before you that you can choose to be happier. You have a supportive FOC too it sounds like, to get you through the greatest challenges. Thank you for your support too, and happy holidays!

Dear DistanceNotDefence thank you for another amazing msg. I couldn't agree more that the NPs only want attention, any kind of it. I learned hard was that confrotation is just the narcistic supply for them. After exhausting myself in trying to explain what they did to me and how I felt and what consequences I have to deal with because of the trauma they inflicted on me, I notices that my NPDm was not bothered at all. She was enjoying seeing me exhausted, she was saying and writing some nasty things not to prove any point (she was not even trying)- just and only to keep the madness going, to bring me to the end of my energies. So I stopped. Stopped explaining, stopped confronting, stop putting my energy, soul, attention, etc. on a plate for her to get her short term fix. Enough.

Yes, it has been an incredible journey. Sometimes I even manage to see all this as a blessing, since now I am able to see something good in my suffering: Because of what I lived, I am able to understand people's pain, loss of loved ones, etc and I can help them or at least show my understanding. I can recognize manipulation, all kind of aggression's including a passive aggression, gashlighting, lies, etc. this all helps me a lot at work for example to stay away from trouble, etc. Plus being an overachiever (due to lack of any validation or attention, I always tried to do more and more hoping that someone would notice me) allowed me to have a solid career and become financially independent. Having been molested as a child, now I can protect my own child. And the list goes on. Recognizing what good it brought me, it helps me to heal since I start to see a reason why I had to live all that.
My FOC is great and my main motivation to never give up. My DHs family is also dysfunctional (not surprising at all, I believe now that we always found each other for a reason to help each other to heal) and I see that my way of dealing with my crazy FOO helps him to stop his denial and to stay away from their toxicity.

If SeaSalt you find lovely, know that Stardust is just beyond amazing. I agree that my issue is FEAR. I read your great msg and I hear it but I still need to convince myself that my fear is irrational. I will write you here why I think my NPm could be dangerous:
1) she tried to kill my father (by sending her lover to push his car over the road in the middle of the night, waiting for him in the ambush while he was coming from abroad)
2) she did not provide me help when I was once sick at home with the life threatening fever (she forbidden anyone from bringing me any medicine, water or any help and I was not able to get of the bed). She never took care of me when I was sick but that time was really serious, I could have died and she knew it.
3) she is connected with some real bad people in the city where she lives. when my FOO once had an issue with some guy, their solution was to pay a professional someone to kill the guy. They seriously considered it, even communicated this decision to the entire family eventually.
4) when my FOO needs something, they threaten people with hurting their loved ones to get it. I was present myself in the situation where one of the FOO member needed a certain job position and could not get it and one of he medical doctor, their friend, sitting with us in the restaurant called someone and said "you will give this position to this person or your mother's operation will not be successful. its up to you"
I could write more but I think you get the idea of what kind of people we are talking about.
I always knew that to stay away from them I will need almost a new identity and I manage to get it. I feel safe where I live. My NM is a typical PD that would be capable to call social security and try to separate me from my child just to hurt me. For this last point I am certain 300%. Now I made this impossible since I did not teach my child her language, she does not have any language in common with my child, she does not know the law in the country where I live and can not act here in any way. We are respected citizens here and in case if she would try anything, I will be safe here.
My father on the other hand lives in the same country as her and she could hurt him. this is my biggest fear. I told her many times that its not him that made me go NC but she does not want to understand it. There is nothing I can do to protect him. But I guess you are right, if she really wanted, she would have done it already. I still need to convince myself of this though. I will work on it.
You brought up an interesting point: that they program us to take care of them for life. I had that program for most of my life but not in the last decade. I even told her the last time we met that she can not count of me for her retirement. She lives a luxury life and I would never be able to provide that much. If she will need one day, I can provide what will be reasonable but for sure not a luxury life. I worked as a slave for her from my age 3 to age 30. I was her personal assistant, secretary, masseur, beautician, hair dresser, nurse, I worked for free in all of here companies and all the different field works, you name it. I consider that the money she spent on my studies (which was in europe and I had my own grants, so not expensive at all) I well earned while working for free all of those years. So I DO NOT OWE HER ANYTHING and I told her so in her face when she told me to pay her back to money from my studies. I think she understood that one.
I also do not feel as if she was my mother anymore. My mother died, the imaginary mother that I loved she died when I understood that she was only in my head and heart. This woman that calls herself a mother, could not be further than a mother to me.
Thank you Stardust for sharing a part of your story. I admire your firmness, you sound very clear minded and strong to me.
I understand now as I am writing this that the only reason I am still in VLC and not in a NC is fear. Fear that she will "burn the house down with me in it". Its the most common phrase I heard from my mother during my life (competing with "I wish I aborted you"). My mind knows that she will not do it, but my body thinks she could. I am not afraid for my life (taking my life away is my common fantasy plus I belive in reincarnation) but I do not want my FOC to suffer so I will do all it takes to live and live happily.
I am reading now the book "The body keeps the score" and I hope it will provide some solutions to remove some trauma from my body.

Treesgrowslowly another beautiful name. Thank you for your msg and advice. Do not worry, I know that my therapists does not fully understand NPDs but she is still a great therapist. she helped me truly so much already. she supports my desire to stay away from my FOO and she thinks that I have all the right to stay away. She gave an example to me: "Would you ever ask a victim of a Holocaust to visit the a concentration camp again. Of course not". she lives in the same country as my FOO and is a mother herself of adult children. So when she told me I have all the right to stay away, even never come back to that country, it felt as a perfect validation. she even though it was smart that my child does not speak the language. so I take what I think is good of my therapists ideas and when I see a limitation in her therapy, i do what I think is right and she supports any of my decisions. It works well. It was very hard to find a good therapist. Once I had a therapists that perfectly understood NPDs. She told me almost immediately: Do you know that your mother hates you? Do you know that your mother is almost certainly a NPD?  This first sentence was the most liberating sentence I ever heard until that moment. So she was great recognizing it all but in healing my trauma she was not so good.
I am so grateful to have this forum where I feel understood and my decisions validated. You guys are such a incredible beings, so strong and so amazing. I feel honored to be part of this community because I find you all so smart, strong, emotionally intelligent and advanced in every kind of way. Thanx a lot everyone.

[BettyGray]

Sea Salt,

Your name has me craving Sea SLt and Carmel ice cream. 

Kidding aside, I don’t have much new to add. What I did garner from your post is that it sounds like you are getting closer to being sure of what’s right for you. And that’s a big deal.

Like you, I did what I thought would protect me. I moved about 15 hours away (by car), visited once a year, grey rocked when I was there, called once a week out of obligation, kept things very surface, never invited them to visit (they invited themselves). LC became VLC, VVLC, and then NC.

In the end, my efforts to protect myself and still stay in touch began to wear me down in ways I didn’t even realize. I had the same physical reactions around them you had around your family. My body was begging for mercy.

I didn’t realize what was happening to my self esteem. I felt awful before and after every phone call, every visit. I realized there really was no love or relationship of any substance, nurturing, safety or even camaraderie left to salvage. They weren’t even interested in me or my life.  I felt like I was playing a part in a play For which I never auditioned. It felt ickily insincere and left me exhausted and sad.

You can only lie to yourself for so long. Sounds like you have made your decision and you are ready. We will be here to help guide you through the rough patches.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Seasalt,

That is so validating. I am glad you found this therapist and I thank you for writing out how your therapist relates to you about your FOO. I honestly think that new members who are asking about how to identify a good therapist for NPD family issues can glean so much from what you shared here.

I apologize if my post about the therapist saying you should confront them came off harsh.

Everyone deserves a good caring therapist and you've described the specifics for what that really looks like. This is really helpful to others. This community is really a lifeline for so many of us isnt it?

What you wrote about seeing it as a sort of blessing is really valuable. I find it hard to get there emotionally. But I have seen over and over that those of us who have been through these things are able to understand things about others and that can really enrich our future relationships with chosen friends or family of choice because we can connect with others who truly appreciate our insights and our capacity for empathy.

Trees

[Jolie40]

Hi SeaSalt

new to NC - since summer
I've seen no downside to going NC

1) if you think any elderly/family members are close to passing, it's easy to search online for obits:
name, city/state, obit

2) not active on any social media so that's one headache we avoid
personally, don't think it's necessary to be on social media

3) if you want to go to your hometown, get those sunglasses out & wig,
diff. makeup or none- do opposite of what you usually do
celebrities disguise themselves & so can we!

[SeaSalt]

@Trees no worries, your post was not harsh. I love straight forward msgs. Thanx a lot. Regarding blessings, the book "Journey of souls" helped me a lot to see the good side in the tragedies as well. I strongly believe in reincarnation, so this book just gave me most of the answers.

1) that's true, and actually I just realised that my FOO is not the only source of information. It's just that my mother programed me to think that. There is also my father, my coydines, friends etc. If I need to find out, the info will find its way to me.

2) I used to think the same but my avoiding social media was helping a lot my mother's smear campaign against me. Than for work once I needed to do marketing on social media and to expand my network drasticly. Opened my own YouTube channel etc. and actually it brought me only good. My mother smear campaign does not work well since people can easily see that it's not true what she is saying. And I feel empowered knowing that I don't need to hide. Putting myself out there helped me also to stop worrying about others people opinion too much. I was worrying a lot about what others think of me when I had the illusion that I was able to control it. Now when I accepted to not have any control if it, I stopped wondering what others think.

3) that's a good idea but it would be difficult to disguise my tall DH and a child and a dog 😂 but this topic made me realise that actually we would never meet by accident since they go only to the luxury places while we are more alternative types. So just by being true to ourselves we ll be able to avoid them successfully 😊
Thanx a lot for your help @jolie40.