Is there hope for the flying monkeys?

[Janeite V]

Have you ever witnessed a committed flying monkey coming Out of the FOG, and if so, what caused their change of heart? And how did you react to it? Were you able to forgive and forge a real friendship afterwards?

The FM in my life has done a lot of direct and indirect harm to myself as well as others I love over nearly a decade of being enmeshed with the narcissist. The FM, as far as I know, seems to be a GC and was never abused by the narcissist but witnessed others being abused and even participated in it or enabled it at times.

I believe that the FM's motivation was likely financial as well as being too afraid to upset the narcissist, and that the FM was probably told terrible things about myself and the people I love (some of it true in some cases) which justified the abuse and exploitation in their eyes. In other words, I think it was a mixture of selfishness and ignorance rather than sadism, which gives me some hope that the FM might change their ways.

Lately I have been noticing changes in the FM. The biggest one is that they have stopped joining in on the sulking of the narcissist and seem to be doing a version of medium chill, instead of immediately pandering to it and demonising the target of it. And recently, the FM said about the narcissist "this isn't normal." Wow. Is the FM starting to realise that things aren't going to change?

I know I have to tread carefully here. Even very innocent things I've said or done in front of the FM have been passed onto the narcissist (as well as others) and used as ammunition.

I have been committed to medium chill with the FM and grey rock with the narcissist. This strategy means I am actually on quite friendly terms with the FM so long as the narc isn't present (in which case they tend to ignore or sulk). Is it worth breaking medium chill if I am approached by the FM about the narc? Part of me wants the FM to see clearly the carnage the enabling is still causing, to themselves, to the narc, and to others. And it is quite serious; I do believe a life might potentially be saved by this.

But then, maybe the FM will get sucked in again, report everything to the narc, and it will make it even worse for everyone!

[Penny Lane]

Yes, flying monkeys can change. I mean, how many of us were FMs to some degree before we came Out of the FOG?

The problem is, as you identified, that we still can't really trust them. The process of coming Out of the FOG is often not linear, and sometimes people backslide for long periods of time or forever. So for the purposes of protecting yourself, you should probably continue to treat them as a potential flying monkey.

That obviously gets harder under the scenario you brought up, which is what to do if they approach you with some degree of awareness about the PD.

For me, it's important to be able to tell the truth, even if that contradicts what the PD says. However, I don't think it's worth it to get embroiled in drama, or to escalate tensions between me and the PD in service of spreading my truth to everyone. So I basically have a range of things that I say:

To my friends, who don't know the PD, I can say my whole truth and vent. This is very important to me because it keeps me from unloading on an unsuspecting acquaintance.

Friendly acquaintances get a: "Our relationship is pretty bad, to the point where we've had to call the police on her several times. I like to think it's improving, though."

Mutual acquaintances mostly hear nothing, but if they brought it up it would be a simple: "Yeah the relationship isn't the greatest, but we do our best to work together." Sometimes the PD brings up her (definitely, 100% false narrative) in front of other people. DH and I for the most part just ignore it - she's usually causing a scene and making herself look bad. But if we were forced to address it we would not shy away from acknowledging "that's not how we see it" or even "that's not what happened," if necessary to clear things up.

You can figure out what your range is and where you're comfortable. I would err on the side of not saying anything, because I just don't want to deal with it. But it could be a huge kindness to acknowledge: "Yes, I've found that PD often describes events inaccurately" or "yes, PD has done that to me as well." As long as you're prepared for the blowback of a flying monkey relapse.

Really, it's up to you. You might not get the validation that you are seeking and that you deserve. You could help this FM in their Out of the FOG journey. But you are not obligated to do that; your first goal should be protecting yourself.

[Janeite V]

Thank you for your insight! I've been very caught up in this whole development and so few people understand in the IRL world.

That is a very solid point about coming Out of the FOG as being messy and not linear. This sort of backsliding is exactly what I fear happening and you are right that it is best to continue to see the FM as a potential FM until they are well on the journey to being Out of the FOG. It makes me sad that I can't trust the FM because I think that without the FM behaviour they would be a really nice, trustworthy person.

I definitely cannot afford another confrontation with the narcissist, and you are right that I would have to accept that risk if I were to say anything. The risk wouldn't just be mine, either. Perhaps validating what they say without sharing any details is the best way to go. If I were the FM I would want someone to tell me everything, but we are at different stages coming Out of the FOG.

And though the signs of getting Out of the FOG are very promising, there are some slightly worrying aspects to it, too. The FM is still trying to convince others to change for and cater to the narcissist because they believe others are causing the narcissist's depression. The narcissist and the FM tend to try to control people under the guise of being "worried" for them, which I think in the FM's case is a part of their co-dependency. The "help" has actually done a lot of harm and is preventing a severe PD/MI person (not abusive at all but very sick) from getting the real help they need. And it seems to be a way to distract from the narcissist who refuses all mental health treatment.

I know the FM was raised in a cluster B household and was very likely conditioned into co-dependency.  But it's interesting that the "worry" is now being directed towards the narcissist, too.  Perhaps talking about my own struggle with co-dependency to the FM might help, although that might be opening myself up to abuse later on.

[Phoenix Rising]

I've only seen them see the light when the PD revealed themselves in a way that personally hurt the FM. The FM were quick to cut their association with the PD person.

This probably doesn't help a lot but I think the decision to discontinue MC is really up to you. As it's been written already, there is a lot of two steps forward, three steps back when getting Out of the FOG.

I like Penny Lane's examples of how one could respond to variety of people involved, especially the example involving mutual friends (or potential FMs). You may even opt to share some link to a resource you found helpful if you feel the need or if its appropriate. Depending on your level of comfort or boundary, you may want to use a fictitious person in describing the real PDs behaviour or whatever the situation and how you related to it. There is nothing that the FM can take back and for the most part you keep everything brief and breezy.

Maybe I am just hypervigilant after PD abuse but personally, I would not involve myself in any way. I don't trust anyone who is associated with the PD person (e.g. mutual friends). You just never know.. especially when the PD's past behaviour shows they will abuse you by proxy. Ofc a FM can come Out of the FOG but I think they would have to show consistently that they are also grey rock or are in NC with the PD in question. Something I've learned too is that everyone has stuff and their stuff is not my stuff. With NPD, there is often a lot of triangulation and back and forth.. sometimes it's just best to give a very boring response and let them figure it out. You don't know their motives or what game the PD is playing with that person at that moment. It sounds cold but it's also not your problem...

[Janeite V]

Thank you Phoenix Rising (what a lovely name!) Unfortunately, that has been my experience as well with other FMs. I've seen plenty of smart people noticing PD behavior towards others and acting accordingly even when they themselves weren't targeted, but I've never seen that level of awareness in a FM before.

With all these common sense idioms like "see how they treat the vulnerable, that's how they'll treat you one day" one would have thought that it would be enough to witness cruelty to others to get someone running in the opposite direction. But with some cluster Bs in particular, the extraordinary stories about their targets as well as their victimhood must obscure the FM's reasoning.

I see now that you are both right that it is too early to celebrate the FM going completely Out of the FOG. I am getting ahead of myself thinking of breaking MC. This development with the FM is probably the first moment of clarity in nearly a decade, but it's only a very small start. This website wouldn't be nearly so active if it was just a sudden realisation. I see that there is a lot of tension between the FM and narcissist now, but nothing close to consistent MC or GR except when the narcissist is going off on others (although just that is highly appreciated, because having the FM there in support gave the narcissist courage).

You might also be right that it could be yet another form of triangulation. Admitting to a problem (depression) to try to get sympathy and to control behaviors of others through the FM. It baffles me that the FM doesn't try to encourage them into therapy for the depression and instead blames others, and that could well be an explanation.

That is a good idea about using a fictional story to talk about narcissism and co-dependency. I could easily use examples from other aspects of my life to talk about co-dependency to the FM. Something along the lines of "sometimes the kindest thing you can do is to step back and let the person handle things themselves." And maybe also "you don't know how much effort people are actually making to help themselves, and they don't owe us an explanation, either."

[Phoenix Rising]

Thanks!

I mean, yeah, this is a really tricky situation in a way. I think most people who have been abused by PDs are empaths, compassionate and dedicated naturally. So when anyone comes to us with a problem, we want to help them. That makes it easy to get taken advantage of in general, without a PDs involvement. After being abused by PDs, I find it very hard to discern another person's intentions let alone someone who is PD/friendly with the PD person. I've noticed there are some other wounds that give to the people pleasing tendencies and there is work to be done in that area, not just to improve my life but to keep myself safe and less stressed out. The empath in me would really be tempted in your situation to relate to the FM and possibly overshare or take on resolving their problem with the PD. Which with NPD is just like spinning tires in thick mud.

It is totally possible that this FM is expressing genuine feelings and opinions to you. The FM may not be saying everything they've said to the PD to you. But you can still protect yourself in case it is just another PD ploy through the FM or FM is nowhere close to being Out of the FOG and still be yourself. I like to think of it as relating and being yourself in a safe way while maintaining some kind of boundary. Should you decide to help in some way, I think the examples you suggested are fine.. sometimes (you know best), it is possible with those replies that the FM may try to go on and on too but that's when you can say, "I hope you'll figure it out" or "I hope it all works out."

I don't know if this is a sign of progress within my own journey after PD abuse but I am more aware of situations like the one you describe and how if I am not careful I could let myself get sucked in.. Equipped too with the thought that everyone has an individual responsibility to resolve their own problems at the end of the day. There isn't anything wrong with being supportive... you may even find a bit of validation by some of the things the FM tells you (cause it supports your own experience with the PD) but since you wrote that FM have been directly and indirectly harmful, it's probably a good idea to keep boundaries in place. Regardless of who it is really

[Janeite V]

It is very tempting to overshare in an effort to help. Honestly, as much as I hated the scapegoat role, the golden child role seems absolutely awful and degrading as well. It's like watching a human turning very slowly into a statue.

Mostly, though, I want the FM and narcissist to stop hurting the others around me who are more vulnerable than I am. I know that's my co-dependency playing up, especially since one of those being harmed is also a PD (they know full well they're being exploited, but they're too apathetic to care).

The phrase "I hope you'll figure it out" sounds like it will be a good way to cut myself off from being tempted to overshare. It's just enough to say "you're right to be concerned" without drawing myself in as well.

The narcissist is very intelligent and as their preferred scapegoat it has always been an arms race with them. I figure out how to parry their blows and they come up with something to counter that. So after your comment about triangulation I do think that might unfortunately be the more likely possibility. It actually fits in very well with the narcissist's usual tactics. They tend to weaponise mental illness - that of their own and others. Even if the FM is genuine, they can still be unwittingly used. And the narcissist has been trying to bait me a lot lately, very unsuccessfully.

I am trying to remind myself that everyone - including the FM and the other PD - has access to the same information as I do, and has witnessed much the same behaviours.