What have I unleashed...

[CagedBirdSinging]

Another big breakup talk with pdH tonight. Dear lord. He got so nasty, accusing me of destroying our family, warning me how hard this is going to be...

At one point he said 'I'm not going to be your friend you know.' I said we need to work together for the sake of the children, and at least try to be on good terms. He said that's not going to happen. He talks about how 'a switch gets flipped' when he is 'done' with someone. Once we divorce, he will be 'done' with me and will not be able to even look at me. This is very bpd right? The black and white thinking, idealising and then devaluing.

Anyway.. I ended up back pedalling a bit, saying I needed more time to think.
I was not prepared for him to be this nasty. I guess I should have seen it coming.
He has been moaning so much lately about our relationship, and has said on many occasions that he'd rather we were separated, and we would still be a family no matter what, he would be involved with the kids as much as possible and he would rather see me happy. So that was all a lie basically. He is now saying we will not be a family, he will not be on good terms with me, and he will see me as The Enemy.

I'm just wondering honestly is this why people stay married to pds? Is it because they know they can contain the pd to a certain extent by staying married, whereas once you leave the pd becomes a loose canon? Particularly for people with kids who have to still be in contact with the pd. Is it a case of keeping your enemies close. I just wonder.

[GettingOOTF]

You are not “containing” him by staying. You are giving him what he wants so he appears contained.

He has absolutely nothing to gain by divorcing you so he will do and say what ever it takes to get you to stay. He has controlled and abused you for years so he knows exactly what your triggers and guilt/weak areas are and he will use them.

This behavior you are experiencing now will only get worse while he tries to get you to change your mind.

If he succeeds and you move back he will never ever ever forgive you for leaving and he will never let you forget that you left. He will make you pay. Possibly with your life.

You will pay a price whether you stay or leave. Only you can decide which price is worth it.

I went back multiple times. At the end I considered myself lucky to have walked away with my life. The one thing every expert agrees on is that abuse escalates. There may be a brief honeymoon period if you go back, but when it ramps up again it will be worse as he know you are strong enough to leave. He will need  to ensure that he breaks you down further so that you can’t run again.

[Boat Babe]

Unfortunately I agree 100% with Out of the FOG.

[blunk]

I'm so sorry to hear this, it is so difficult to summon the courage to have these conversations, only to have it turned around on you. It is truly as if they operate from a script. I heard so many of the same things, and we only had dogs...no kids. It is clear that he did not mean what he said about wanting you to be happy, being a family while separated, being involved with the kids. BPDs cannot take rejection, and tend to immediately go on the offensive.

Yes, I got the "flipped switch" metaphor, he was done with me, I was ruining our family, I was throwing away 20 years, he couldn't live without me, he wanted to stay friends, the only way he could get through it was to hate me, I was the love of his life and he would never find anyone else while I would be married again in a year and spitting out babies (I had never wanted children, I knew that in my teens), nobody else would ever love me or treat me like he did, I was fat and ugly and he was sorry he ever wasted his time on me...and on, and on, and on.

GettingOOTF is right, they know our weaknesses, they know which buttons to push to get the reaction they are looking for. IME, the truth is, they see us as the enemy even when we are with them. Their every word and action are intended to keep us where they want us...both the positive and the negative. You told him something he did not want to hear, and he took the action he needed to in order to get you to backpedal. You know that you have to do what is best for you and your children. And I'm pretty sure that does not include staying in a relationship where you are continually manipulated to meet his needs.

[CagedBirdSinging]

Thanks for your replies. I just feel so scared and unsure. I should have expected his reaction, but I really didn't think he would be this bad.
In a way, this is confirming my gut instincts about him. Even though he has been relatively 'nice' for the past few months, I have always been wary of him. I have seen his capacity for real nastiness before, and now I'm seeing it again.

The constant contradictions are dizzying. Why did he say those things about wanting to be a family no matter what, if he didn't mean them?!

I am also being accused of abandoning him, leaving him completely alone etc.. He moved country to be with me - his home country is a 12 hour flight away. So he has no family or friends here. At the time when we met, I expressed hesitation about him moving so far away, but he was determined to move. Now he has no one to support him. I feel like he just flung himself at me, and expects me to look after him forever in order to repay the 'debt' of him moving here. He did not tell me about his mental health problems when we met. If I'd known he had such massive mental health problems, I would have advised him to stay in his own country with friends/family. Now I'm not sure what he will do.

The feeling of being hated by someone who once professed undying love for me is just brutal. I am so scared as I have no idea how this is going to play out. I was stupid to hope we could settle this like adults and remain on good terms for the sake of the kids. It looks like that is not going to happen. I'd been hoping he would agree to me having custody, and him visitation rights. I'm now scared he will go after part time custody, which he would be entitled to by law, and which would be the worst thing in the world for the children. They have never been alone with him and I cannot imagine how he would cope. 

[GettingOOTF]

This is a frightening and uncertain time so your feelings are natural and understandable.

I always say leaving is the easy part. The hard part is staying left. People don’t believe me until they experience it for themselves.

On average a woman goes back seven times before she stays gone. Of course some women end up staying forever and some are killed by their partners.

I went back multiple times. Leaving was harder each time because he knew the signs I was leaving and most importantly I knew how hard and scary it was to be on my own. A large part of why I went back was because I thought I couldn’t manage on my own. It took some time but now I’m thriving.

Personally I don’t think the pull to return ever fully goes away. I know who my ex is and what the relationship was, but occasionally I still get a tiny twinge of “it would have been easier to go back”.

I spent over a year after separation “discussing” it with my ex. It never got us anywhere. My advice if I were to give it is to stop having these discussions with him. Also stop trying to give him a soft landing. He’s not interested in either and the more you engage with him the harder it will be for you to trust yourself.

My ex was 100% financially dependent on me when we separated. He also had mental health issues. The guilt and pressure on me from everywhere, including myself, was immense.

I grew up in a PD home with abuse. I would have given anything to have part of my time in a happy, secure and stable home.

My experience with my ex was he targeted the things he knew would upset me and keep me in the marriage. 

If I were to do it over I’d get more support from a therapist and domestic violence group. I’d have looked for a better attorney and pushed the divorce through faster. The time I spent trying to give him a soft landing and get him to agree only made my part harder.

To put it in perspective - my ex was saying all the things yours is, plus crying, declaring undying love and making all sorts of grand gestures a year later while he was living with his new girlfriend. I was so FOGgy that I still felt guilty and was reluctant to push through the divorce. He was living with another woman and I still felt like I was hurting him and he was still making me feel guilty.

I think it’s rare that there is ever a clean break. For me there was a tiny part of me that knew I wanted a better life and somehow I was able to nurture that part of me.

[Mitchy]

I'm so sorry you  are going through this. It's so difficult, and I agree with GettingOOTF.

I divorced last March and it's been a difficult year due to COVID. He's still hanging around. Saying he's changed. Trying to act as though being friends is easy. Yet, the underlying things are still there. I know he's the same person. He's been like he is for too long.

Mine actually told me that he lost everything because of me and the he is hateful toward me because of that. It's about the possessions to him. Both the kids and me as well as the "stuff" that does with a house.

Yes, it's hard to leave. It's hard to stay. But if you are strong enough to go through what you did with him, you are strong enough to deal with the aftermath. Every time you feel yourself wavering remember how it feels in worst moments with him. So much becomes crystal clear once you are on the outside looking in.

[Penny Lane]

Hi, in addition to all the great feedback you've gotten from others, I want to add, you haven't unleashed anything! HE CHOSE to unleash this side of himself. And this part of him was always there, he was just hiding it recently.

You're right, this is why people stay married to PDs. But the reason that people leave is because - as hard as ending it is - you will never have to deal with this again. (I mean, yes you have to coparent, but you can set a lot more boundaries and his ability to impact your life will be much, much less than right now).

You are strong. You can do this.

[Free2Bme]

Caged bird,

One way to look it is that 'you' are the loose cannon. Meaning you have changed the dance and he's not having it. 
The hateful words he is saying to you are an attempt to get you to stay. 

I have learned that everyone is a threat to PD's.  No amount of reassuring, agreement, bolstering ego's, admiration can remove one from enemy status.  There is no negotiating.  IME, there is no healthy co-parenting with pwPD, whether you are married or divorced.

When I left, my updh turned on the tears. An award winning performance on the front lawn, in front of the children of course.  It was "please don't do this to our family... 20 years of marriage....I'll give you xyz", followed by the flipped switch of wanting to destroy me in every way.  Soon after, he sent a cryptic message through our teen children coming home from visitation, they said "dad says destruction is coming for all of us, mom".     He had become so unstable that I was scared.  I felt I had unleashed all the demons in hell upon myself, I definitely had that moment of 'what have I done'.

Try and view your mental/emotional energy as your most valuable resource.  Preserve it at all cost.  Although you have to think, plan, make decisions (and of course keep yourself and children safe), don't expend energy being shocked by his behavior or drama he kicks up.  This will pull your focus away and deplete you. 

What you have is a known, what you are moving towards is unknown, for me it felt like teetering at the top of Angel Falls. But, as Mitchy said, if you are strong enough to survive thus far, you can make it through this. 

Sending peace and strength your way

[ChillNow]

Dear CagedBirdSinging,

Be very careful to not give the things he says in this transition phase too much weight.  He is likely 'flailing' emotionally and will 'talk all over the place' for a while and you will feel thrown around the ring emotionally. 

Also keep in mind that you can't talk, reason and negotiate normally with a PD; the only things they really understand are tangible consequences.   

His already-challenged brain is in a state of stress right now – expect to hear a lot of desperate statements for the next several weeks.   
 
My ex said so many things (threats, guilt-tripping, pleas, hardness) – tried many angles just to see what might 'stick' in terms of dissuading me from leaving.  For example, the statement that the relationship has so much potential.  Uhm, nope, long-time patterns of certain behaviors have consequences, whether the behaviors were intentional or due to being on the spectrum of a PD.  A friend of mine said something that was very helpful: when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

My guess is you want to do this ONCE and get it over with. 

If so, stick to what you decided that you need to do regardless of what he says.  Because: he will say many, many and contradictory things and you will only exhaust yourself if you allow them to soak in.  It is a dysregulated person talking.  My ex talked and talked and texted and texted and emailed.  I was way too polite in terms of hearing him out.  I don't recommend that because IT JUST DRAGS THINGS OUT and my mind was already made up.  Be civil, to the point and keep the end goal in mind.

Free2Bme said it wonderfully:  'Try and view your mental/emotional energy as your most valuable resource.  .... don't expend energy being shocked by his behavior or drama he kicks up.  This will pull your focus away and deplete you.'

IWishing you a calm spirit.  It is so good that you are open here about your feelings and struggles instead of holding them in.  You have gotten some really wise and useful responses from supportive people who have been through something similar.

[CagedBirdSinging]

Thanks everyone, you are so kind. This site has been such a lifeline in the last few days.

I an feeling stronger today.
Chill now, you are right - I only want to do this once and get it over with.
I cannot stay with pdH long term, so if I left it would only be with a view to leaving again in the future.

I just set up the broadband in my new house. Small gestures, but it makes me feel stronger.

I'm very non confrontational, very calm and peaceful, a very gentle person. When pdH kicks off with the drama and accusations ot scares the life out of me... my natural reaction is to back track and try to appease him. But of course that is not a long term solution.

I think I need to limit the phone calls - he gets very verbally abusive on the phone and it has a bad effect on me. He doesnt listen to what I'm trying to say. I think maybe email communication would be easier.

[notrightinthehead]

email communication will be much easier, it will also give you time to calm down before you respond. And in case you need to document something for custody purposes, it will make that easier too.

[losingmyself]

Cagedbird, when I left my xh, he vomited all this stuff, too.  It was like, anything he could think to say, or threaten, he did.
He said that he and the Pope were very unhappy with me for divorcing him! Uh, ok.
He threatened suicide, I said I would hang up and call 911.
He made accusations about DD and new H, I called the school, social services, the police. Then he backpedaled. He learned that if he was going to threaten me with something, I was going to follow it up.
He also said he wouldn't sign the divorce papers... he did. He said he wouldn't sign the papers I needed him to sign so I could get a home... He did.
He ended up just leaving me alone, and sharing custody with the kids, until they had to go live with him full time because of my current BPDH.
My point is, he calmed down when he saw that this was how it was going to be, and when all of his b.s. was getting exposed. Well, he wouldn't want to ruin his reputation!
Then he just smeared my name to his flying monkeys, but I guess they weren't my friends after all.
Thank goodness for texting and emails so I didn't have to listen to his voice any more, and I had a record of things he said.
I'm happy for you that you're getting set up in your new place!

[CagedBirdSinging]

Thanks everyone. Your advice is so helpful.

I'm seeing him this evening as he has a visit with the kids, and I feel worried sick. I've started to realise it's the unpredictability of his behaviour which causes so much stress and anxiety. I never know which version of him is going to walk through the door. I lived with that for years. Now at least I only have to put up with it for an hour or so, a couple of times per week when he visits the kids.

I'm dreading this evening. Having been so nasty, he is now turning on the charm, telling me how much he loves etc

[CagedBirdSinging]

Another tough conversation last night. I told him I'm not coming back and want a divorce. He turned nasty, blaming me for everything, telling me he wants custody of the kids...

Today he came over to see the kids, and it was just like a dark cloud entering our home. He was icy cool with me, and overstayed his welcome. He left a short while ago and I feel emotionally drained. I'm going to have to learn tools to cope with his visits, so he doesn't effect me so badly. The kids were very moany and quiet when he was here but have perked up since he left.

I'm fighting against the feeling of guilt and worry about the whole situation, and reminding myself he is NOT the victim here. All this could have been avoided of he hadn't put me through years of abuse.

It's just difficult trying to keep a clear head.

[GettingOOTF]

Divorce from a Pd is one tough conversation after another. But look at you. You are out there having the tough conversations and making a loving and stable home for your kids. What you are doing for them will help them every single day for the rest of their lives.

I don't know how old they are but do you have to let him come to your home to visit them?

My ex attacked the things he thought I was most worried about during the divorce so it's natural your stbx will hone in on custody. Now that you've left it's really the only weapon he has. I'd document everything single interaction you and the kids have with him and then work with an attorney.

[CagedBirdSinging]

Thank you gettingootf

They are very young, one still a baby. His behaviour has been so erratic over the years. He has never looked after the children on his own. A couple of times I've left him alone with them, he has phoned me to come home early because they have been hysterical and he isn't able to comfort them. So, tough as it is, I'd rather he visit them here - at least I am here to keep them safe. Covid makes everything worse because normally we could meet him at the park or play centre but we can't do that at the moment.

[Stillirise]

You are doing a great job!  You're right...he is not the victim.  I want to encourage you to not see yourself as one right now, either.  You are in control of your life.  You are able to set and enforce boundaries that are necessary for the well-being of yourself and your children.  That is acting from a place of empowerment, not victim hood.

I want to give you perspective from my viewpoint, nearly a year out from where you are now.  Those first weeks were absolutely hellish.  Obviously we aren't in the exact same situation, but Pd's do seem to share a playbook.  Here's what hindsight now shows me about those days:

—Boundaries were very difficult to set, both in the emotional sense for me, and in the literal sense.  He attacked them like a velociraptor for weeks.  I had to bar him from entering my home.  I had to limit communication by voice or text. If he did send a message that was reasonable, on topic, and relevant, I replied via email, using the BIFF framework.   This served 2 purposes: less anxiety for me, and documentation.   In the beginning, I felt terrible about being so "mean." Now I see it as essential for navigating this path successfully. 

If you must allow him into your home, I recommend placing some strong boundaries around time, and conduct.  I also recommend ignoring him as much as possible while he's there.  No matter what he thinks, he's visiting the children, not you.  I had to handle some really nasty outbursts at first, until I finally barred him from entering my home for several months.  We are now at a point where he does sometimes ask to come by for a short time, in lieu of actually picking the kids up for the night, on his custody day.   He knows my boundaries around entering my home, and is respecting them for now.  He also knows I will ignore him, other than a few pleasantries.

—He would say or threaten absolutely anything that he thought would shake me up.  Everything from custody, money, comments on my appearance, to threats of violence.  I did my best to ignore, yet document, it all.  One year later, it has mostly been shown to be all bluster, no action.  However, I was, and remain vigilant about my personal safety.  One thing I believe we have in common...our stbx's may make nasty threats around custody, but when the rubber meets the road, they are unwilling and/or incapable of actually caring for, and parenting their children in any meaningful way.  Keep that in mind when he lodges his threats.

—After this huge, circuitous battle, he has come around to offering me a settlement that is very close to what I offered him to start, in regard to both custody and property.  It's his idea now, and I think his lawyer has advised him that he doesn't want to go to court, especially after the behaviors I've openly documented.  Plus, the settlement is equitable and reasonable.  That's definitely not where he was in the beginning.

Best wishes!!! You can do this!  I did, even when I didn't believe it was possible to survive, with my sanity intact.