Feeling suckered, and how to respond to tough questions

[SearchingForTheSun]

It's been more than 2 years since I've posted here, but I've been stalking the boards a lot lately. I'm so thankful to this community and the help it can provide even when you aren't an active member. Thank you all for sharing your stories and support.

I could use some reassurance. I've felt like I've made personal progress with dealing with my uPD mil in the last two years. There was a brief patchwork of interactions that let me hope that we could improve our relationship, and then it all tumbled down almost exactly like it had every time before. She brought up a touchy subject, we didn't see eye to eye, and she stopped contacting me. I had been shopping for her weekly because of COVID. She chopped me off and railed against me to my husband, and then complained after family events that I was cold to her. Through all that I worked on setting boundaries and figuring out how to not let the hurt I feel turn into bitterness and poison me from the inside.

We're reaching an event horizon with her, and one of the last ditch efforts to leave no stone unturned before we cross it, I had a conversation with her. I highly recommend Recovering from Emotionally Immature Parents : How to Reclaim Your Emotional Autonomy and Find Personal Happiness by Lindsay C. Gibson for anyone struggling with a PD parent or in law. It was very helpful to prepare for talking with her.

Anyway, we actually had a good conversation. The kind of conversation that makes you question if your uPD has a PD at all. The funny thing is as I type this, I realize it was a good conversation FOR HER. Not for anyone else with whom I was having a crucial conversation with. I guess just typing this helps ground me. The hardest part I deal with is I get so tangled up with trying to justify her actions. I'm my own worst enemy. The thing that sets me up is that I tell her how I feel hurt, confused, frustrated, and disrespected by her and her response is, you make me feel the same way. Then I find myself getting stuck feeling on the hook for how she feels. I wonder if I really am the problem in this relationship. Which again, as I type it out, I laugh at myself. I should know better than to expect her to acknowledge in any type of empathetic or sympathetic way how she makes me feel. But how do you, as a sensitive person, not feel somewhat obligated to address something you did when someone says it was mean, but you have no idea why/how? If it's a PD thing, than it's not my problem. If it's not a PD thing, than what kind of person am I that I'm so horribly offensive and not even realize it? She's treating me this way because I'm "mean" to her. I'm setting up boundaries because of the way she is to me. My boundaries look like meanness and unfriendliness to her. How do we interrupt the merry-go-round?

Anyway, I feel guilty for not wanting to change anything. In the past 4x times we've had almost this same conversation, I'd be willing to put my big girl panties on, and try again. This time I got very used to the distance. I was working on forgiving her and all the BS just a phone call with her could dump on us. I was safe from a distance and encourage my husband to treat her like a PD person and see how she checked all the PD boxes and how important it was to keep a PD person away from our kids. What kind of BS is it that after one "good" (for her) conversation, you all of a sudden question all your decisions and freak out that maybe YOU are the heartless DIL who just has a vendetta against your MIL and just painted her into a box of PD so you could push her away because she is a pain.

Because at the end of all this, the issue is we've put some restrictions surrounding our kids and her. My husband is fed up with her behavior. Now that she and I have had a nice chat, I'm afraid she'll move in for more time. We've still got problems with her. She actually asked me to tell her what she does that makes us put up the boundaries. Anything I say and I'm screwed!? How do I tell someone that although you were nice today and we talked through our problems, I think you're a textbook PD and I want my kids minimally exposed to your warped way of thinking?

Anyway, just writing this post help me put some things in perspective. Any insights or shared experiences would be welcome. Thank you.

[Cat of the Canals]

I'm setting up boundaries because of the way she is to me. My boundaries look like meanness and unfriendliness to her. How do we interrupt the merry-go-round?

I know that merry-go-round feeling. It's so disorienting, especially when the PD in question is good at pretending to behave well to get what they want. My unPD mother is VERY good at this.

I have a list of questions I have learned to ask myself when I start to weaken my resolve. In regards to the specific behavior I find offensive/rude/etc., I ask myself two questions:

1. Would I behave this way?
2. If someone else behaved this way toward me, would I find it offensive?

My unPD mil used to drop by unannounced and expect us to entertain her for hours, which both my husband and I found very annoying and disruptive. The fact that we don't particularly enjoy spending time with her made me feel guilty and wonder if I was being mean (my mother also trained me to be a people-pleaser, and that didn't help things either). But then I asked myself: would I do this to someone? The answer is NO. And if anyone else did it to me, I would find it equally irritating.

Answering those questions reassures me that I'm not being unfair or mean or vindictive.

The next thing I do is identify a specific boundary relating to whatever the issue is and determine whether it is a boundary that needs to be communicated to the other person or not. In this case, we asked my MIL to please not come over unannounced anymore. As a recovering people-pleaser, this was difficult. But again, I asked myself a few questions:

1. Am I asking for something unreasonable? (No. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask someone to simply make plans with us instead of assuming we are free whenever they wish.)
2. If someone asked this of me, what would I think? (I'd think: "I'm so glad they told me, and I really hope I didn't offend them too much if I ever showed up unannounced in the past!")

Since we're dealing with PDs, it's probably inevitable that they will find a way to violate the boundary. In the case with unPD mil, instead of coming to OUR house unannounced, she would go to my bil's house (ten minutes away) unannounced, and then call us to "let us know she was in town." My husband felt guilty leaving his brother to deal with her alone, so he'd usually let them visit, even though this violated our boundary.

I was just realizing the extent of my own mother's PD around this time, and practicing boundaries was really important to me. I wasn't as willing to overlook the violation. I felt there had to be a consequence. And the solution was simple. When she came around on one of her impromptu visits, my husband was free to entertain, but I would find something else to do. Sometimes I left the house completely. Other times I simply locked myself in another part of the house and read a book, worked, sewed, etc. I couldn't make her respect my time and space, but I could do my best protect it.

She is usually fairly passive, so she never directly asked me about it. But I know she was annoyed. She'd make little comments here and there, but another boundary I've set is that I don't respond to subtext. If someone wants something from me, they can ask, and I will give them an answer.

Instead, my husband and I just gray rock/medium chilled through the "subtle" hints that she wasn't happy about the situation. Had she asked me outright, I would have gently reminded her of the boundary by saying something along the lines of, "I wasn't expecting you today, and I'm in the middle of something. If I'd known you were coming in advance, I could have set aside time to visit."

In this case, the boundaries were explicitly stated and explained, but they do not always need to be so, ESPECIALLY with PDs. For example, if you were to decide you aren't comfortable leaving your children alone with her, I wouldn't tell her that. Instead, anytime she suggested taking the kids, I would come up with a variety of creative ways to say no.

Examples:
Oh, I was thinking we could all go to the movies together. (Suggesting an alternate plan.)
That won't work for us this week. Maybe some other time. (Putting her off for now.)
That's just not possible. (Flat no.)

That last one is important. Remember that "NO." is a complete sentence, and the simplest boundary of all. You'll probably feel tempted to JADE, especially with a PD, because they'll demand to know WHYYYYY, but it only gives them ammunition. You have a right to say NO to anything, without explanation, at any time.

[SparkStillLit]

I'm interested in that flip thing. When you say a statement "I feel disrespected when" and the PD's response is "I feel that way too" every single time, well wtf? They just copy every single statement. Do you just go away, or what?

[Leonor]

Hi Searching,

Oh, so frustrating, confusing and upsetting.

Here's how you handle mil's guilt trippy upset and temper tantrum:

You don't.

You just don't.

You don't try to make it work.

You don't try to make amends.

You don't try to figure out how to do it.

You don't explain, or point out, or state patiently. Not again Not even once.

You don't have to be hostile. Or snide. Or sorry. Or sympathetic, or sensible or a "bigger" person.

"But what do I dooo to make you feel this way?"

"But I thought we were making prooooogress."

"But you saaaaid ..."

"I just want toooooo ..."

Yeah, that.

Here's the thing.

You just don't.

Nope.

What do you say instead?

You say, "Ah."

Or, "Uh huh."

Or, "Hmm."

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

Then you leave. Visiting hours are over. Time's up. Gotta to get back to reality now.


''Cause that 'good' convo? That 'headway'?

It's a con. A scam. An angle.

She needs unwarranted attention and unmerited sympathy and absolute control. The fastest way to get from there to here is to be victimized by someone.

Anyone, frankly, will do. It's not personal. You're just handy. And you're always so willing to play along! You'll go through the script again and again. You never get tired, and you even get emotional about it, and it disrupts the harmony in your marriage. Now everyone feels like they have to take sides and it's all about her!

Are you kidding? She *loves* it.

Let her go find someone else to play with. It's like Tic Tac Toe. Once you figure out there's no way to win, you stop playing because it's boring.

There's no way to win. So why bother playing?

[Andeza]

They're copying the feelings and emotions you share in order to invalidate your own feelings. If your feelings aren't valid, then you don't have a leg to stand on as the saying goes. That said, our feelings are valid.

I think they mirror these feelings back to us because they don't have... normal feelings of their own. They are so consumed and wrapped up in the dysfunction of the disorder that they don't originate thoughts and feelings, or if they do they have no idea what to DO with those thoughts and feelings because they have nearly zero coping skills.

Spark, I find that people who just throw back at you all the things you've just said, and you've put yourself in a relatively vulnerable place by being willing to share, are not capable of appreciating that fact nor properly accepting that you have a valid opinion or emotional response to their actions or words. Personally, I no longer share anything vulnerable about how I'm feeling with people like that. They are not my friends. They are not safe people. They are at the least dysfunctional, and possibly disordered, but they get the brush off. "I'm fine." "No, nothing's wrong:" topic change. In some cases, I end that relationship, usually by not being available until they get the hint. Can take a while, but I'm good at the broken record.

Searchingforthesun, I've heard boundaries described very well by someone on YT, a financial guy of all things, but he's very boundary savvy. Dave Ramsey if you are interested at all. But what he said (I'm heavily paraphrasing) was that if your neighbor is accustomed to walking across your lawn on the way to the mailbox, and you decide to build a fence to stop that behavior, if he's a healthy person he'll accept it and stay off your lawn. If he's a toxic person, he'll take it personally. Same is true of family. Healthy people accept boundaries, throw out a "Hey, that's cool, no worries," and carry on. If they cross the boundary, they apologize and keep working on accommodating. Unhealthy/toxic people will take the boundary, throw it on the ground, and jump up and down on it while screaming bloody murder that "IT's not Fair!!!!!" Or various insults to your person that bring back memories of children on playgrounds saying things like "meany-face" strictly for example's sake.

In the end, you don't have to tell her anything. Remember that. You. Do. Not. Owe. Anyone. An. Explanation. Especially people that we know will not accept it with grace and dignity. In fact, we put ourselves at greater risk by explaining in many cases, because it fuels the fire and gives the pwPD more ammunition to lob at us when we're vulnerable.

Leanor ninja'd me a bit there, but made a ton of excellent points!

[Cat of the Canals]

I'm interested in that flip thing. When you say a statement "I feel disrespected when" and the PD's response is "I feel that way too" every single time, well wtf? They just copy every single statement. Do you just go away, or what?

My interpretation of this is that they see your "It hurts me when..." statement as something that gives you "points" against them. They claim they feel the same way to make it a tie score. It's a draw now, see? They didn't "lose" the argument. They aren't in the wrong.

My PD aunt and PD mil have periodically revealed that they "keep score" on a lot of things (gifts, favors, how many times a person has visited them, etc.). And it made me start wondering if they are keeping score with other things.

And yeah, I agree with Andeza that I don't share any sort of vulnerability like this with the PDs in my life. There's just no point. But if I was taken unaware by this behavior by someone I hadn't previously thought was PD... I think it would be a cue to end the discussion.

[bloomie]

SearchingForTheSun - welcome back. I'm glad you reached out during this lastest Merry Go Round of events.

There is little that is more emotionally invalidating than for us to share our feelings and the harm we are experiencing at the hands of another person and for them to ignore them and immediately lay claim to them. That is what that behavior is to me... emotionally invalidating, an abject lack of compassion and familial caring for a dil, and refusing to take responsibility.

Your mil invalidating by mimicking how you are experiencing her is possibly indicative of someone who sees the solution for their relational and life problems as outside themselves and therefore someone else's to fix.

Your mil is the catalyst for ongoing conflict and stress within the family. When confronted with that truth her response to the very real distress she is causing is invalidation and the loaded question/demand: "I don't know what I've done or Tell me what I've done." ?   

You may be dealing with someone who is unable or unwilling to do what all of the rest of us adults have to do, and that is take a long look in the mirror and do the work we all do to manage ourselves in ways that do not harm and offend others and to take full responsibility when we do offend others.

Something that I have had to personally examine is: why I allow myself to be lured back into a position where I am close enough to again be emotionally harmed, manipulated, and used by my own chameleon like mil?

In my own case, my mil's actual and repeatedly demonstrated malevolence toward me is so well disguised most of the time and her personal appearance so non threatening, that I have let my guard down many a time only to have my heart crushed and the kindness and generosity, forgiveness and understanding shown to my mil, invalidated in one fell swoop.

I have come to see the pattern and that my own mil can only maintain that hapless benevolent facade for so long and then the simmering resentment with a splash of paranoia that is always there asserts itself and does harm. This is usually in response to me not going along with unspoken 'rules' of the family, not meeting mil's rigid and unrealistic expectations, not staying within my assigned role as a non blood person without rights 'mate', not viewing another family member as she deems, choosing a different level of contact than she decrees, or addressing an issue - such as a serious breach of boundaries.

Connect/disconnect. Hot/Cold. Sweet/Mean. It is a cycle and a real thing and messes with our heads because, in my own experiences, the message is always... there is something wrong with me. I am mean, the problem, the solution  unforgiving, petty, haughty, cold, have taken my DH away from the family, are judging others harshly and unfairly, unable to see my wrongs and how I have hurt others - to name just a few of the things I have been labeled as both subtly and not so subtly... enough of this kind of a devaluation campaign and character assignation and I began to really question my own experiences and perceptions.

SearchingForTheSun I am now a mil. I understand better than I ever have how vulnerable my beautiful dil is to my regard and behaviors toward her. I am not her mother - she has an incredible mother - but, I am someone who is in a position to bring a great deal of love and support and validation into her life or bring a great deal of undeserved pain by nit picking, fault finding, and acting out.

It is a sacred position to hold - that of a mil - and the relationship with my own dearest dil has been carefully and lovingly cultivated. I believe that is what normal, familial love looks like. Not perfect, or ever without misunderstandings that are quickly and sincerely resolved, but holding each other carefully and respectfully and with honor for the position my dil holds in her family with my DS and within our shared family.

What you are experiencing is not what you deserve. What I have experienced is not what I deserve and not at all a reflection of the love and generosity lived out by us in these relationships as we attempt for many years to build something of lasting value with our in-laws.

The only thing that has brought me peace is to accept that my mil has indeed shown me what she is about and what matters to her. I can work from that reality and develop a level of contact that keeps those who do not mean me good and have great potential to harm me away from my core self and most intimate and important relationships.

A great resource for me has been 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life', by Margalis Fjelstad - most especially the second half which offers great insights, help, and tools.

Keep coming back and sharing! This is really tough stuff you are working through and you don't have to do it alone.

[Cat of the Canals]

I second the Stop Caretaking book. It answered a lot of questions as to why I find myself drawn back into these relationships and how to break the cycle.

[SearchingForTheSun]

Cat, thank you for your response. After spending so much time in the fog, emerging from the fog, and on the 'outside' I sometimes forget all the steps that we took. What the past was like. Things are a little 'better' now because of the distance we put in place. We took those steps as needed. I forget sometimes how I got Out of the FOG and all the crud that went on when we had fewer boundaries and didn't realize what we were dealing with. I forget that she's got her own special handling rules that we follow almost without thinking. I get caught up in trying to make sure I'm "doing the right thing". It really shocked me when I read about the EI-Relationship contract in the book I mentioned above. It took seeing it printed in black and white to realize that she does have her own relationship rules. I think I've finally maxed out on my end. I don't want to go another round. She'll have to behave like a normal human being for me to try and reconcile with her, and we all know that's never going to happen. I just need to accept that it's no fault of my own!

Also, I was trying something new for myself that I had also read from the book I mentioned. I was working on self-expression to demonstrate my equal status in the relationship. I can share my feelings too, they are just as important as yours. I need to remind myself that basically, it's just for my own benefit. My statements will go in one ear and out the other. I wasn't going to share any tender parts, but it is awfully hard to tell someone they hurt you and you get no meaningful response.

Leonor,
Thank you for your response. It was very powerful in it's straight-forwardness. I want to be able to just walk away. The problem is that this situation seems to keep chasing me and shouting at me as I do! And I love how you said how playing the victim gives her all she wants. It is so true, and I need to stop personalizing it.

Andeza & SparkStillLit, thanks for touching on the copying. It's nice to know that it's not something unique to my situation. What you say makes sense. Andeza you're completely right about boundaries and explanations. When we initially pulled a full stop on one-on-one time with the kids, she did a nose dive/rage/implosion/etc. I would have been horrified (if I was in that position) and wanted to know what I had done to cause such a thing and how I could correct my mistake. she accused us of thinking of her as a child abuser. She brought it up yesterday, and told me the sad story of how it devastated her, how terrible we made her feel, how she suffered 3 years of depression, and how she still doesn't know why/understand why we did it to her. How much of a Wonder Woman do you have to be to not want to try and explain/defend yourself? The other problem is, you know she's calling every person in the phonebook with that BS too.

Bloomie
Thank you for sharing and your support. I actually found and downloaded that book late last night. I think I may be a caretaker. It's so helpful to know that others struggle with the same types of behavior, and have experiences to commiserate with and share.

I'm going to let the guilt go and be happy with my VVVLC. Like everyone here has said, she hasn't changed. She's playing nice, but that's just part of the game. She's clever enough to know when she needs to play nice to keep the door from swinging shut. We'll she what her reactions are the next time something doesn't go her way.

Thank you all! I feel so much better already. My anxiety and rebound has been so much shorter since I came to this group. It is also helpful to have people to talk to that aren't in the whole mess too. My husband gets it from her, and then I react emotionally, and he has to deal with his own emotions. We have a very healthy marriage, but I am an analyst and he is a do-er. My level of analysis and dissection drive him crazy sometimes, because he processes things very differently. I'm glad I found a place where I can work things out for myself with a group of supportive people, and share the cliff notes with him.

Thank you all!!

[Andeza]

How much of a Wonder Woman do you have to be to not want to try and explain/defend yourself?

I got a chuckle out of that one. Honestly, I just got tired. Sick and tired. I was over it. No matter how much explaining was done, it didn't matter. I was wasting my energy, my time (which has always been exceedingly precious to me), and internal peace trying to explain to my uBPDm that her behavior was not okay without triggering an epic meltdown or worse. So at a certain point I was done. "BUT WHYYYYYYYY?" "Because that's the way it is." End. Finish. Done. New topic thanks. No further explanation given, no revisiting until they think they've managed to change my mind, no broken PD records. I'll explain something to someone once in detail, a second time more briefly as a reminder if necessary, but more than that and I'm done. "We already had that conversation, I'm not going over it again." I make one exception to this rule. My own DH. He has memory trouble following an accident and it's permanent. I get it, and I make allowances for that.

If I sound fed up with pwPDs... well that would be totally accurate.

[Hilltop]

Agree with Andeza and others where you get to a stage where you are done.  A relationship just shouldn't be that up and down and hard.  It really shouldn't be.  Even if you aren't close it really isn't hard to be around someone and not be hurtful or mean.  Most people manage it every day at work, going to the shops.  Basic courtesy and respect is doable for most people.  So if for that other person such as your MIL if it is constantly up and down and hard it means something else is going on and the day you realise that nothing you do will ever fix that or help resolve it is the day you will be free.

My MIL has had bouts of being nice or friendly but give it time and she's back to playing games.  The only thing I did to end that game was to stop playing, I rarely see her anymore.  This isn't your responsibility.  Really it isn't, we only have so much time in our lives, I now find I don't want to waste another second of it around people like this.  Once you get out of that drama circle, you just don't want to get back into it.  So I would say distance  yourself, stop wondering what your MIL's intentions are or what she is thinking.  Turn it back around to yourself.  How are you feeling around her, do you like her, do you want her in your life, are you happy around her, does she add anything positive to your life, do you get more positive interactions or more negative?  Really stop thinking about your MIL and start looking at the value she is adding to your life and if she is only causing you anger and resentment its time to create some distance and peace for yourself.  You tried with her, my question is why keep trying, has she tried, or has she just continued to play mind games.  They do know when you are walking away, they sense it and they will play nice to drag you back in.

At some stage if your MIL genuinely wants to fix things she can accept responsibility and telling you in response that she feels the same way is not accepting responsibility.  She is invalidating your experience and turning it back around to her being a victim, its all her, her and her.  You said your piece so now leave it with her.

[SearchingForTheSun]

Thank you again Andeza. It's amazing what they say sometimes. It feels like you have to be super human to not react. But I realized, that I react because I still care what she has to say. I'm afraid what she says is true (WTF, right?) or I'm avoiding her anger. I'm working on that caretaker book, and it has been a real eye opener. The scariest part is me thinking we are so much alike. That's a level of dysfunction in myself that I didn't even realize and I want it gone.

Thank you too Hilltop. I appreciate everyone's input. Basic courtesy is so doable, but it seems with my uPD MIL, my courtesy is cold and unfriendly to her. She's even asked me if I think I'm normally friendly to people who come over to my house. She's commented on how odd it is that I don't even realize how unfriendly and mean I'm being to her. I'm just putting together that statements like these are specifically aimed at my self confidence and keeping me questioning my actions. It's also what has led me to feeling like we're the "same" because she don't know what she has done to hurt me either. This stuff is just so amazingly intricate and these little things really do make a mountain year after year!

I'm going to finish the caretaking book, I'm just getting to the second part Bloomie mentioned. I've realized so far that forgiveness is not the same a reconciliation. That love doesn't cure all. That I don't cause her feelings. That my tendency to be caring, flexible, helpful and easygoing is what has kept me in an unhealthy relationship to the point where I think we're the same. I've allowed for that relationship to develop special rules that apply to no one else, that enable her behavior and hurt me. I'm out. Done. No mas.