If a friend is dating an abuser, is it our business?

[NC since 5/15]

My friend's abuser is not a narc, I don't think, but the abuse is there - controlling, emotional blackmail, the whining victim, the jealousy, the demands - and my friend giving up more and more of her life and the things she loves for this. Plus, my friend has a daughter, whom the abuser doesn't like, so my friend ends up having to choose - something no mother should ever have to do.

I am afraid I am going to lose this friend. This is not her first abusive relationship, yet, while she sees many problems and says this person is not "the one" for her in the long term, she can't walk away. I have tried to just listen and agree in ways that encourage her thinking in her own self interest, but she still won't see it for what it is.

I am ready to lose her if I have to to be perfectly straight with her now. I've seen too much and, while I'm not with them when they're alone, I think that fact that the abuse even shows in public is enough to suggest that I'm not wrong here.

I don't want to lose her - she's been a good friend. I could use some advice.

[Julie]

NC, this is a tough question and I'm glad you asked it. I imagine you'll get a variety of perspectives on this because it's a complex issue.

My personal opinion is that you are doing the right thing to not keep quiet. Abuse thrives in silence and inaction. A quote I read recently hits home for me in this context:
"All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

The tricky part is to not alienate or blame the victim. Your friend could easily perceive your concern about her remaining in the relationship as blaming her for poor decisions. I think if you continue to stress that you care for her and are her friend regardless of the choice she makes, hopefully she will continue to trust you and maybe eventually your valid concerns will resonate with her and she'll welcome your support and help when she decides to take herself and her daughter out of harms way

She's lucky to have you as a friend.

[NC since 5/15]

@ Julie: She always says she "values my insights" and such, but she still lets this person walk all over her and even kind of sees it, but apparently she and the whole world think this person is the sweetest thing ever and I just don't see it. I think there's a lot of that - everyone supports your choice until you break up - then they tell you what they really think. Although, in the case of abuse, oddly, people don't talk about it much. She's not happy. She's gaining weight. She's facing having to care for this person after upcoming surgery. She knows all this and it's not like, again, she's never had an abusive relationship. I am trying to keep reminding her that I care and I tell to tell me to stop talking if she doesn't want to hear what I'm saying. But she's getting in too deep. Thanks for your  comments. If I could out all of these people at once, I would do it. If only...

[ChristinaJH]

All I can say that I have been in an abusive relationship and the worse thing friends could have done, is to push me to end the relationship. Consider that it takes up to 8 times, until one can finally leave a toxic relationship. So my advise is: be there for her. Even if she pushes you away, check-in with her. Don't let her isolate herself. Listen to her and her feelings. Validate her feelings - I bet she is being gaslighted by him or other, so encourage her to ackknowledge her own feelings. Look up Dr. Ramani on youtube she has a lot of good advise when it comes to difficult relationships and how to handle them. It is extremely difficult to be a good friend in this situation but understand that being in a toxic relationship is very confusing and one cannot see clearly. It took me months to realize what was happening because I could not imagine that I have fallen in love with someone who did not exist and I was grateful to my mother who was always there fore me and validated my feelings and listened to me.

[1footouttadefog]

Be honest, and speak truth to the degree she is open to hear it.

Be careful however about enebling her if it comes to that.

For example, you don't have to be an emotional dumping ground or have a one way relationship because of who she chooses to date. 

[losingmyself]

I also just wanted to add that if an abuser is working toward controlling and isolating her, he will insist that she tell him every word of your conversations, and that might give him more ammo to insist that she never see you again. Just be aware of things you say, and let her know that you're always there, when she decides to leave.

[notrightinthehead]

I am a great believer in putting doubts into soemone's mind.  Little remarks - does he do that often? Are you not allowed to come? Is he always like that? How does that make you feel? Do you want to marry him? Do you have to ask his permission? Does he like your kid? Is he nice to your kid? Does your kid like him? Little nagging questions. Just showing interest. And then satisfied with the answer I get. Until I ask another time.  Any complaints I will validate, confirm, say that should not be like that. Then leave it.
I find it painful to watch people make decisions that are clearly not so good for them. I also wish I would have had a friend who had told me not to marry my h.  I might not have listened then, but I would love her for it, because I would know that once I had a true friend.  Sadly,  nobody said anything.

[pianissimo]

I have become very cautious of friends who are with abusive people because I have had two experiences in which I was put in danger of being abused myself. The lesson I learned is that, people who tolerate abusive people have boundary problems, in certain occasions, this includes their friends. When they don't realise they are treated badly, they don't realise their friends are treated badly either.

I had this friend I liked a lot, and the first time she introduced her husband, her husband treated me very badly. It was mostly passive aggression but in the end of that night, I found myself crying in my appartment. This friend divorced her husband, and started dating a guy. It was OK at first, but in our third get-together, he ended up verbally and emotionally abusing me. Again, that night, I ended up crying, this time, in front of everyone. This incident was triggering for me, and I came to know about narcissism after this experience.

Another friend of mine had this guy friend. I knew this friend because our fathers knew each other, so I had some kind of trust in her. She and her friend approached me for getting to know each other better. We went out, got drunk, had fun, etc. The next day though, this friend told me this guy tried to take advantage of her when she was drunk (I was actually going to take care of her, but he said she was his neighbour, and he would keep an eye on her). She appears to be still friends with this guy though, but I was basically horrified because she seemed to be matchmaking us, and I fancied the guy. I basically thanked god the guy wasn't interested in me.

Reading your story, I feel like you should worry about yourself first. If you don't know the guy that well and he seems to be abusive, there is a chance he might abuse you in some way too. Your friend doesn't seem reliable to have your back on this, given she is not able to protect herself.

So, if you spend a lot of time with this friend, there is a chance you will end up spending time with the guy too. From my experience, it's in your interest to talk to her about this guy. You could at least tell that you would not feel comfortable around him.  You can try to keep your boundaries all you want, if the guy is abusive, he will try to push them back once you end up in the same circle. The whole thing comes out of nowhere. In this case, you are seeing the red flags, so why risk it? I must add that, at this point, I'm so sick of any kind of abuse, I can't think of anything else to say.

[BeautifulCrazy]

I think if the person is a friend, it is not only our business, but our obligation to bring it up.

I really do wish my friends had said something to me before I got too involved, and definitely BEFORE I got married. Out of all my nearest and dearest, nobody but my mum expressed any concern about my ex husband. (I didn't listen to mum) The only person who told me the truth was a mutual acquaintance of both of us. He was a bit strange and everyone referred to him jokingly as "Crazy Kevin" (name is changed, but you get the picture).
At some point, whether immediately after I left, or years later, EVERY SINGLE ONE of my close friends expressed to me that they had had doubts and / or concerns.
That felt like a betrayal every time I heard it.
If you cared about me and wanted the best for me, why the heck didn't you say something?!
I don't believe I would have listened at the time. Still....
I can't say for sure, but I do suspect it would have helped me recognize some red flags and realize a lot earlier what I was dealing with. I also feel certain it would have helped me find the courage to confide in someone, instead of thinking that even if I managed to speak some of the horrors I was enduring aloud, no one would ever believe me. (I thought everyone liked him and thought he was great. Wrong!) I spent unnecessary years afraid and alone. It wasn't until after I left that I told anyone.
As another poster said, I don't think someone pressuring me to leave him would have been helpful.
I do think that someone, every so often, gently expressing concern, and leaving it at that, could have given me enough of an opening to start talking, and allayed any fears of not being believed.

From the other side...
Many years ago I had a friend whose boyfriend was verbally abusive and also exploiting her financially. I suspected, if he wasn't already, he might become physically abusive as well. I was still working up the nerve (and the words) to say something to her, when she announced their engagement. The best I managed to do was ask her a couple of times "Are you sure about this?"
She said she was.
I left it alone.
We grew apart after her marriage. (Mostly because I couldn't stand the guy)  Five years and 4 kids later, he beat her to within an inch of her life with a copper kettle and she left. She had tried to leave several times.
Talking with her later, I discovered my minimal efforts were not nearly enough. She didn't even remember me asking!!
If I could do it over, knowing what I know now, I would be blunt and specific about my concerns. I would leave it to her to act in her chosen way and in her chosen time, and above all, I would let her know that I would be there for her, no matter what time or distance came between. 

I have another friend who I have had only superficial interactions with for the last 4 years.
When she asked me to participate in her wedding, I sat down with her and told her I was worried about the guy she was planning on marrying.
It was happening so quickly. She knew him only a few months.
He spoke unkindly to her, and about her, in front of others.
He had children from a previous marriage that he did not see or provide for.
He couldn't keep a job.
She made excuses for him.
And she was worried, being almost 40, that this might be her only chance to marry and have kids.
I told her I would be there for her no matter what but I was not able to support her in marrying him, as I did not believe he was right for her.
She was furious. It ruined our friendship.
They are still together. They didn't get married. (After reading so much here, I suspect their planned destination wedding was him 'future faking'.) They have moved, several times, to progressively more dismal houses in sketchier neighborhoods. He doesn't work.

I think he monitors her communications, as her return texts after our split became more and more short and superficial. But she ALWAYS texts back, so I know it isn't because she is dropping our relationship. She always gives just enough to maintain. I continue to text every couple of months, carefully vague so she won't get in trouble if he reads it. When I see her, he is always with her, possessively holding her hand or arm. She defers to him and lets him do most of the talking. He dominates the conversation and our interactions are brief and fake.

I sent a card this year to her mom's house, hoping it would not be intercepted, reminding her that I am here for her if she ever wants an ear or a shoulder or anything at all.
I don't know what happened with that, but I pray all the time she is well, and if not, that she sees the light and leaves. However long it takes, I will be here for her.

[SeaBreeze]

I've been on both sides of this situation. I have friends and family members who were/are in abusive relationships. And I'm the friend or family member *in* such a relationship.

My suggestion is keep a safe distance from your friend's partner, and certainly don't get triangulated into their dynamic, but...leave the door open to your friend. Let them know you're there if/when they're ready to talk. It may be YEARS before a piece of advice or an observation you've shared with your friend sinks in, but it may very well be the insight that eventually pierces through their FOG.