Relationships With Other Survivors of Emotional Abuse

[j.banquo]

I really just want to know how others have dealt with this, honestly.



I met someone who has encountered and been abused by more people than anyone I've known. One predator after another, which he doesn't realize, since he grew up with it. He thinks it's him and/or it's just how people are.

He's still in the midst of an abusive relationship with (and for now at least living with) his mother, and has a lot of awareness about the unhealthy dynamics, but also doesn't realize how much it is affecting him - psychologically, emotionally, or physically. He of course feels like he must be a good son, which I relate to quite a bit.

Once he got really upset on the phone when he thought I was criticizing his mother, but he was fine once I explained.



When he encounters a situation or phrase where he - I put it this way to myself - "knows the next line," he can react (especially if it's over text so he can't hear my tone of voice or see my expressions) as if he's under attack, which of course he is, in effect, especially since he is under attack by his mother every day. He's actually very good with his emotions in general. I often react weirdly too, but from a place of "okay, I'm about to lose him forever, I guess... try not to panic too much."

Because of the abusive relationship, he really only has time to text. He can't talk on the phone much because of phone anxiety, and also because his mother spies on him. It's awful. I mostly refuse to text since it is such a disaster waiting to happen. There are so many phrases that can sound either critical or neutral, or even critical or positive. Not worth the risk.



I'm going to talk to him about it the next time I see him I think, print out a bunch of stuff, and put resources on a thumb drive.

I understand that people can easily trigger each other, and it's something to be aware of and careful about.

[moglow]

So - you're tiptoeing around him, is what you're saying. If he doesn't like phone calls and you dont like to text, how do you see that conversation taking place? Has he asked for that information? I'd be very careful in this sutuation. Understand that if he hasn't asked (or chooses to not discuss at this time), presenting it to him may feel incredibly intrusive and/or judgemental. He may prefer to not discuss that situation at all. Until he broaches the subject himself it's probably better to listen, pay attention to cues as how receptive he is.

[j.banquo]

So - you're tiptoeing around him, is what you're saying. If he doesn't like phone calls and you dont like to text, how do you see that conversation taking place? Has he asked for that information? I'd be very careful in this sutuation. Understand that if he hasn't asked (or chooses to not discuss at this time), presenting it to him may feel incredibly intrusive and/or judgemental. He may prefer to not discuss that situation at all. Until he broaches the subject himself it's probably better to listen, pay attention to cues as how receptive he is.

We see each other in person a couple times a month, on average.

He's brought up his family dynamics, past and current abuse from them and other relationships - everything I intend to bring back up - but from a perspective of "what's wrong with me?"

He brings up fatigue, and medical problems, anxiety, sleep problems, headaches, pain. I've always been honest and said "it's probably stress," and brought up all the sources of stress there are right now in the world.

So, to continue in the vein of honesty, mutual respect, and straightforwardness, what I'm going to have to do is tell him about what I've been realizing and going through (which I've been vague about on purpose, including explaining 'it's so close to stuff in your life, that we have to be careful, and I don't want to trigger you'), in a way where I don't force it on him, but make sure he really feels like it's being offered.

If he totally rejects it and backs away I'd completely understand that; it would be very difficult for me of course, it just seems like that's a better outcome than not giving him the choice.

[j.banquo]

Here's the thing with this. This is long, wow, but I think it has to be for it to make sense, and I even edited it down.

I mean all relationships, even peripheral ones, but mostly close ones like friendships and people one dates or more.



We aren't attracted to each other because of very similar past experiences with abuse, down to the specific family members and current living situations. It's a crazy coincidence that it's almost the same at this moment in time, in fact.

We don't get along because of that stuff either; we have mutual and compatible interests, and are interested in each other's interests outside of those.

The first time we met in person, we just sat and talked for hours, in a gazebo in a park, in January, during a hail storm, eight feet apart, under wool blankets. Because of the pandemic. Not in a weird "oh my God my soul-mate and instant life partner" way; in fact we're both creeped out by how fast people move in relationships these days. It was just comfortable. He was really enthusiastic at first, for good reason.

The degree to which we could connect and learn from each other about our families and experiences with abuse is almost absurd. I honestly wish it weren't a factor; if it weren't, we could just focus on the "real" thing. When the other stuff gets in the way, I refer to it as "something that isn't us," but he doesn't get what that means. We don't even have to go there together, that part of who we are with each other.

I said to him about a year ago "I can't do this for you, figuring out the depression and anxiety, but I can keep you company while you do." He said that sounded nice, and I could tell he'd never heard of a thing like that before.

In the past year, his life circumstances have deteriorated steadily - particularly the level of abuse from his mom.



When we first met, I saw right away he had either been through more abusive and horrible situations than anyone I had ever met, or was a pathological liar and/or borderline.

I noticed he came on really strong at first (with stories about horrible past relationships), plus improbable stories about recent past tragedies, which was a massive red flag... unless it was all true, in which case it would be so overwhelming, he would be that blindly angry, in which case it was actually pretty appropriate, even though it almost never is.

It was off-putting, and people had done that in the past to manipulate me, but it turned out to be okay. I was able to say "hey wow, the level of anger is below what's appropriate, but when you talk about these people, you disappear... your joy, your presence, your engagement with the world... I want to hear about them too, but it's hard to hear about you hurting so much, so sometimes I might have to say 'I can't hear more about this right now.'" That went over fine, except it clammed him up way more than it needed to, which I knew was a risk.

He's got a high level of social and emotional intelligence, but feels like he's socially inept and can't manage his emotions (he manages them better in most ways than anyone I've ever met).



The main differences between us right now are that I have a grasp of how past trauma affects relationships (probably just since I randomly have a few therapist friends), and I'm not in an abusive situation that I can't get out of.

He has some idea about trauma and relationships (at least enough to be wary of what he may not know were red flags for abusive people). He has no idea he's in an extremely abusive situation with his mother though, and he is stuck on her couch.

He started working 60+ hour days (expecting a normal work schedule going into it) a few weeks ago, with a two hour round-trip commute, and comes home to his mother screaming at him. Even in the middle of the night she does this, from all the way upstairs. She demands anything and everything all of the time, rejecting all of the good solutions and demanding he take care of all of it himself personally. Even when he hires someone to do a thing, she demands he redo it since it was "done wrong." He paid a $4k bill she was ignoring, and has no expectation of seeing that money again. His sister and he are "close;" in fact she does nothing to help him ever, and takes advantage of him. He prioritizes time with them over everyone else in his life, leaving no room for new or even existing close relationships outside of them. He expects his sister will inherit the house.

Last Christmas, he cooked them both dinner. His mother gave his sister a present. She didn't give him one.

He is so used to no one caring about what he wants, it's almost impossible for him to even know what he wants to do when we make plans. When nudged repeatedly, with suggestions like "is there a thing you've been wanting to do all summer but haven't had the chance to," he will choose something he wants, but be convinced the entire time that I don't really want to be doing it. He wants to believe it's not true when I say I'm actually having a wonderful time, but since it has always been true before with basically everyone, I don't see how he can, not until a long time has passed.

This of course also affects his ability to know or express what he wants in his relationships with others, any of them. It was easy at first, but the longer we knew each other, the more he drifted away. I was sure that would happen, since I've done it.

He expects me to be behaving and to expect things that the abusive people in his life did, even though he knows I'm not like that. I knew that would probably happen, but not that I wouldn't know when it did... I didn't know, since it didn't happen in person, and that was catastrophic.

When I had to say "hey, let's define this as something, please, anything but hypothetical future potential getting more distant," it sounded to him like I wanted him to promise the stars, know what he wanted right then forever, and if he didn't, it wasn't fair to me. He even assumed I was asking him to tell me he loved me - we were never even really dating (again, the pandemic made time weird). That was the last thing on my mind, but it was obvious when he suddenly said "of course I love you, I love this and that about you, it's just that you reminded me of my ex best friend six months ago."

Saying "hey, you're perfect, just the one for me" sounds to him like putting him on a pedestal; I explained "no, I just mean a top-quality person. Not that you're the only one for me and I'd perish without you. I've felt the same this whole time, just getting stronger slowly." Best I can do.

He has the same anxiety I do about letters and phone calls and emails, just worse, since his mother spies on him still.

Any time I've picked him up or dropped him off, I've had to do it around the corner, since his mother watches from the window.



He has made constant good-faith efforts.

He has tried hard to communicate what words and places trigger him, and I've always taken note the first time and taken it seriously. I think as the relationship grew closer, though, it became too overwhelming to him to even know what was going on, what was triggering what, what was me and what was the past.

I brought up the growing distance once... he tried. All that got through to me was that I was being "too nice," so I agreed to stop saying nice things... that was a massive mistake, lol.

I'd never tried to suppress saying the positive things I thought about somebody before; it not only felt horrible, it was of course a disaster.

I realized months later, though, that every time he heard a nice thing, it meant the blow was about to come.



I think he may have decided it's hopeless to try to date at all, doesn't want to disappoint me, doesn't know what he wants even if he does know because what if it isn't acceptable so better just give up, still likes me just the same but got triggered to the extent that that's always in the way now, and trying to talk about it feels like a bomb is about to go off, because that is what has always happened before, plus he has conflated me with all of these past other people, since humans fill in the blanks and texting has no emotional content, so we probably just fill that part in with either our most recent or worst experiences with whatever topic it is.

He probably doesn't believe that I mean it when I say I'm interested in him, not in some set idea of a specific type of relationship. I wouldn't either if I were him.

I can see him freeze when he can't talk about things since they're so overwhelming; I was worse than he is for most of my life, the whole thing up to maybe two years ago at maximum.



So not only can I relate to all of that, down to each detail, I don't want to hold it against somebody that almost every single relationship, including friendships, has been with someone abusive. He isn't abusive, quite the opposite. One of the best, kindest, and most honorable people I have ever met, not in a charm and intoxicate way.

I think his life has been like this mostly because he never got the chance to leave the area, and is a gay man surrounded by the toxic gay culture that has too few people in it for the ones who aren't toxic to be a significant number, and the toxic culture that thinks he's an abomination. He came out to his mother years ago and says she "didn't really get it." Right, I'm sure she didn't, lol.

I can't hold it against him that he's currently so busy from a new job, crazy commute, and being totally enmeshed with abusive family members that he has no time.

I spent seven years unable to date, in a severe depression, and wouldn't want anyone to hold that against me.

I wouldn't want anyone to hold it against me that I am often really, really weird from almost every romantic relationship, many friendships, and every FOO relationship, having been abusive and manipulative and exploitative.

Or that it takes me years to trust someone.

I don't mind backing off, getting closer later, whatever. It sucks that he cannot communicate about so much, even though fundamentally he is good at it.



So of course it's this complicated, of course it is... I'm writing that from a perspective of amused frustration and resignation and acceptance...

Of course he isn't ready, I never expected anything to move fast, but didn't expect it to move backwards either, and now I'm also back to not ready even though I was a year ago, since no relationship ever really developed; that particular window was missed, likely because of the pandemic, though there still would have been all the noise to cut through.

There is no way I would be able to date or even want to if I were in his place, no chance.

The damage that was done by my having reminded him of abusive people from his past for so long, without it being talked about; that can be fixed, but it can't be undone.

What anyone would need in his place right now is to not be pushed or pressured even without a history with abuse.

I've never, ever dated anyone who wasn't mean to me, who didn't belittle me or reject what I was saying when I told them who I was and what my life was like.

I only just discovered how to relate to other men; I wouldn't have if not for him. That's all him, truthfully. He is that empathetic and kind, and in some ways open to vulnerability and real close-friend-level intimacy.

I don't think I ever enjoyed physical intimacy with anyone up until him, just plainly put, objectively speaking. It's not necessarily anything to do with him, probably just the timing, but it's also true.

See, I went back to trying to be "the good thing," in other words straight, I would say not once but twice in my adult life, and once or twice as a teenager, so he might be the only person I've ever had any business dating, at all.

Before this my experience of being gay, or really any physical intimacy, involved having to get absolutely wasted first.




So here is the point, after all of that: if we are both like this, both worth the wait, both working on it or trying or can't, who knows if we will succeed, both really fantastic and kind and smart, how does one navigate that?

I don't tiptoe around him really, I'm just aware that almost anything I say right now about my life would probably send him down the same insane journey of flashbacks, migraines, a world of pain, waves of... I mean I wouldn't take anyone down that road without being able to see their face, and if at all possible getting their consent first.

If I say "hey I am cutting my mother and sister out of my life, but don't take that to mean I think you should do the same," then go on to tell him a few things that might suddenly shock him into realizing he has been through a lifetime of emotional abuse (he already knows, just not what it means), and he may realize he almost certainly has to do just what I am... no one should do that to someone who they know has a hard time asserting himself, who can't even get out of an abusive situation with those very people right now... I owe it to him as a friend and even fellow sentient creature to bring this up, but I also owe it to him to not do it recklessly, without regard for his feelings and preferences and where he is in his life.



How do two people with that much "damage," who have so much to offer each other because of their common experiences, but can't offer it because they don't trust each other yet because of the consequences of those common experiences... has anyone here figured it out with someone else before? Surely...

I usually know what the right course of action is; I don't with this.

I know to be straightforward, honest, build intimacy and trust... I trust myself to make the right call when I see him, but I have no clue how to navigate this in general.

I don't even have a point of reference for a healthy relationship that isn't a friendship.

He has no reference point for any kind of healthy relationship...

I of course also don't know how to navigate it with my friends who have been through abuse, that's something some of us are learning about each other and sharing right now, all of our stories about abuse...



PS:

Now, if you're still following me: if anyone is thinking "hey, you're desirable, he isn't the only one, you could move on even if he is worth it, after all he may never get there, go you, believe in yourself," you aren't wrong, he may never get there, or it could take ten years, but don't be so sure that he isn't quite literally the only one. And yes, I am fantastic, very desirable actually, but pretty specific and unlucky, too.

I'm pre-emptively protecting myself in writing this part. I don't want to have to point this out since it is painful, and the response I envision is either indifference or incredulity so big I'm not believed... so I'm going to explain it as best I can, and not think about it for a while again, because honestly people need to know this stuff, empathy alone can't get you where I am taking you.



Before we begin - I'm not pulling these numbers out of thin air. I'm not citing sources either, since this isn't at all on topic for the forum, and I have a good memory. The actual numbers don't really matter anyway, since the difference is so huge they could be almost anything, and it would look basically as ridiculous.

If you are straight, and are not transsexual, and don't have Bipolar II, your dating pool is about... let's say 20% of the population. Other straight peers who are not your gender.

If you are gay, then your dating pool is about 2-3% of the population (10% is gay, leaving 5%, then ballpark adjust for peers, generously).

If you are trans*, let's assume 10%-20% of any demographic would even admit they're attracted to you, let alone think you're dating material.

So: as a gay man who is transsexual, the peers I can date are 3% of the population. The ones who would be at all interested in me are 0.3% to 0.6% of the population. While that is about 990,000 people out of about 330,000,000 in the USA, it's 10,000 people in the state I live in. It's 2,563 in the county I live in. It's 390 in the closest city of reasonable size.

What percentage of hypothetical potential partners do you meet who you are at all attracted to? As in if you are straight, what percentage of men or women who you meet or see out in the world are you attracted to, assess to be candidates to be good friends, and get to meet, and who are also attracted to you?

Personally, I only even want to be close friends with at most 10% of the people I meet, probably closer to 1%. Let's call it 5% of potential partners are people I might even want to befriend. That's probably about the same or less for all humans. That's now 49,000 people in the USA, 500 in the entire state, 128 in the whole county, and a total of 19 people in the closest city.

What percentage of them can I expect to even meet, ever? I don't want that answer, lol.

So, from past experiences, I'd say a minimum of 50% of the people I try to date have an issue with the Bipolar II thing, cutting all of those numbers in half.

That leaves me with a grand total of 9 people I could date in the closest city. It's 64 people I could date in the entire county, compared with almost 171,000 for a straight person who is not transsexual, and does not have Bipolar II disorder.

Plus it takes me years to trust someone, and I'm 39.