Puzzled About Narcissist With Long-Term Friends

[j.banquo]

In short - I'm wondering what it means (if anything) when someone is almost 100% abusive to their immediate family, but also has friendships going back to her 20's that appear way too close for someone like that to have.


How She Is With Family

My mother is someone with full-blown NPD. She's also smart, interesting, and fun. With others, she tends to talk almost entirely about herself, or her opinions, or things she likes. She doesn't ask questions about how people are doing unless it's the completely obvious thing to do, like if someone's wife died. She'll send a card, but doesn't tend to reach out in a real way. Or maybe never does, I wouldn't know.

The level of emotional abuse she subjects others to is unreal. Way beyond unhealthy. I almost died when I was 4 because I wasn't taken to a doctor (and then she got to play dedicated & loving parent when I was hospitalized), and I used to drink straight vodka to dull the pain when I was 12. She tortured my father to the point of his developing a depression so bad, he developed psychosis and thought the police were coming for him.

By 100% abusive what I mean is actually never once there to help me (while often performing "helping parent"), and in fact has torn the rug out from under me expertly whenever I've been happy or successful. Even when I lived as far away as possible from her while still being in the United States, she accomplished this.

She's now around 80 years old. I'm 40. I've lived in an apartment under her house for 5-6 years. She has loved it; loved watching me suffer and be non-functional. Her strategy is to say things like "you're costing me money" the day she comes back from a two-week trip during which I took care of her plants and dog for free; it took two hours a day. My recent favorite was a vague "if you're going to do this, you're going to have to do it on your own" I have no idea what she was talking about, and was only asking her to email some friends to see if they knew anyone who wanted some temporary work at my business. As an aside - she messed up with that one, that's practically a polite "get out and never talk to me again," so I'm both amused and very clear-eyed about what she thinks of me.



How She Is With Friends

She recently asked me whether to reach out to a friend having a hard time. I said "You love your friends, of course you can reach out, you won't be bothering them." Her immediate response was "I don't love them, I love you and your sister and dad." So I spent maybe an hour explaining to her that probably she does love them, and who knows what else I tried to explain about love, caring, and the nature of friendship. Actually, I've spent quite a lot of time over the years attempting to explain things that honestly require the emotional intelligence of a three-year-old to understand, usually for 45 minutes straight or longer.

She has many lifelong friends, though, and I believe some know her pretty well. Her newer friends are people she has met within the past 10 years; those relationships also seem stable. She doesn't see them too often, she isn't close to her friends in the way that I am with mine, and I think for the most part the way she connects with them is on an intellectual level, discussing what they're mutually interested in. Hell, I love talking to her about all sorts of things; she even listens to my opinions and respects them sometimes.

They're more like acquaintances, I get that. Some are self-absorbed or worse, some are very caring and dedicated to great causes, some are powerful, some are rich, and some have no assets and make practically no money. Some have very healthy self-esteem and know how to love others, and some just plain hate themselves.

I do think that the ones she spent the most time with over the years also had almost no concern for others, including their children. I get along with most of these people very well, and I could point out which ones those are.



The Puzzle

I can see that she has a fantastic source of narcissistic supply in many of these people. She's respected and admired by all of them. Certainly loves being affiliated with the powerful ones in others' minds.

I also know it's extremely common for people to be one way with their families, and completely different with everyone else.

At the same time, the picture & history of her friendships just don't jive with anything I've read about how narcissists treat their friends. As far as I know, she has never alienated anyone or messed with their heads. She does know to engage with them at least a little about their lives.

Anyone else have someone like this in their lives?

[Hazy111]

You're concentrating on your mother , who you know well  and youre coming Out of the FOG. . But you dont really know her friends to that intimate extent?

I would say and i think its a a fair assumption, that the majority of people havent a clue about PD or whether they they are in or Out of the FOG. 

Narcissists only really abuse those that they can get away with , usually immediate family sometimes work colleagues, sometimes a friend. With others image presentation is everything. So a politician/celebrity only his immediate family will see the real him/her,, the public have a carefully manufactured image.

See Son of Thunder . He explains this very well., with his Circles of influence?? stuff.

They may well be enthralled by her persona that she projects when around them and it makes them feel good to have such a friend. They wont ever see the side you see. . Many of them may well be PD themselves . What do they care if she treats her daughter/husband abysmally, or the daughter has "issues"  or whatever " She makes me feel good" ... They like to have the persona she projects around them....

AS you know no narcissists or PD has  "friends " they are all narcissistic supply....for both her and them..... this is another really painful concept to grasp for a lot of people .

We live in a narcissistic society where narcissistic values are admired...superficial success, popularity, money , status. possessions. fame. Celebrities etc are worshipped for their fake personas .

Humans can take only so much reality   Fantasy projections are so much simpler. Simplistic childish "black and white thinking"......."splitting",,,,,err ,,, which is a PD "defense."

Ohh i used to have people like this in  my life , but now they are not,,, some are on the periphery, as i believe PD is the norm  (the more i came Out of the FOG,, the more i read the more, the more i understood )   and so to interact with humanity you must interact with PDS.


I wish you well, you write very perceptively.

[j.banquo]

I've cut so many people out almost entirely over the years, I hear you. Thanks for chiming in on this, it's just a bit of a puzzle to me... to clarify, I do know a lot of her friends very, very well - they've known me since I was born, and I have individual relationships especially with the children of those people, but some of them too. She hates this, but she knows better than to show it.



Thanks for the complement about my writing style. You should know though - I was really lucky to go to a school where everyone in 11th grade had write constantly, even in math class. Every kind of writing that exists except legal briefs or whatever. You never lose that, it's awesome, and everyone should have access to a high school education like that.

And honestly, I couldn't even figure out how to write one sentence for years until this past April. Years and years.

I went back to being a concise writer when I stopped:

• Editing myself in advance to take out words people might not know, or use words incorrectly on purpose so to not intimidate anyone
• Attempting to figure out in advance how to address every question or objection that might be brought up
• Letting anyone control how I use my time, including almost totally dropping smartphone use
• Thinking I'm naturally a bad guy, a failure, a "waste of an investment," or a disgusting freak for being queer

But yeah, cutting people out mostly or entirely...

What really hurt recently: someone manipulating me, accepting help but never offering it, gaslighting me, and trying to tear down my self-esteem, and that guy was my best buddy all of high school - I've known him for almost a quarter-century, lol. Like, enough already.

I can't believe I didn't see it, I even let him drift away from 2011-2021 on purpose because he was self-centered and does not listen if he has an opinion about something already, instead he just steamrolls you. But he's worse than that, wow.

I mean, I didn't date from 2009-2015, because I knew something was up with the people I was choosing to date, and I'd better fix it or else I was going to be a much harder life than necessary.

Another friend from high school pointed out in college that I was an event in "the crazy girl Olympics." These days it would be "the crazy guy Olympics," but it looks like my project of "don't date anyone until you figure out why this keeps happening" worked. And the twenty years of therapy, ha.

I'm steeling myself for consequences right now, because of past experiences standing up for myself. I kicked out my last girlfriend in 2009 (best relationship move I ever made - friend, family, or significant other), and almost all of our neighbors thought I was a monster, even though I'm sure they could hear her screaming first... for two hours straight. That's how long I could keep my head, keep a blank face, and not participate before finally yelling back, if I couldn't leave the apartment (or didn't want to, it was my home and office too). They shunned me.

[moglow]

"Friends" may be all relative - some people are more tolerant or codependent than others, some able to compartmentalize in general. You know how you have different friends you do certain things with? Like I have one I'll lunch/dinner, hang out, have a few drinks with but never consider dragging her along to art shows or yoga classes. That's just not her style, ya know? We can talk movies, sports or politics all day long but doubt we've ever discussed books.

The presumed PD in my life, mommie dearest is incredibly alone. No known friends as far back as I can remember. She's just not that interested in other people, can't even pretend with her own family.

Guess what I'm saying is those tidy little boxes don't fit all even when they have same (presumed) diagnoses. People are still individuals with some overlaps here and there.

[Cat of the Canals]

I believe my mother is some blend of BPD and NPD. She is quite social and has lots of friends (many of them are people she's known since her 20s, as well). She goes to great lengths to appear generous and caring and thoughtful. One of her favorite things is to invite friends from far away to stay at her house -- she actually will INSIST upon it, the implication being that she will be offended if they don't. So she's nice, but her niceness is always quite manipulative. She wants people to stay at her house because then she gets to play hostess and show off, plus she gets some imaginary "Good Deed" points, which is a primary motivator for a lot of her behavior. She and her sister are both obsessed with the idea of always having "done more." If they've done more for you than you have for them, they can't be below you on the totem pole.

She is outright cruel to my dad. She can be that way to my brother and I, too, if she perceives us as "not towing the line." But she's usually more likely to play the nice/generous game with us, because she knows you catch more flies with honey. And it works, too. I've lost count of the number of times my SIL has attempted to shrug off some boundary violation with the words, "But she does so much for us." 

She has had a few friendships fall apart over the years. The most memorable was her very best friend. I grew up calling her "Aunt Sally." (Not her real name.) We spent holidays together, went of vacations together, etc. They were solid friends for at least twenty years. But Aunt Sally is almost certainly BPD as well, and she did something extremely bizarre to cause the rift, so I don't exactly blame PDmom for ending the friendship. Though she did seem to delight in demonizing and gossiping about Aunt Sally after the fact.

I'm not sure if "socially intelligent" PDs are actually so much less common than "socially inept" PDs... maybe they're just better at flying under the radar. PDmil is the latter type, and I think most people can tell pretty quickly, "Something is off here." As such, she'd be far more likely to be diagnosed. My own mother would probably end up "best friends" with the person giving her a mental health evaluation. 

[tragedy or hope]

The unpdh in my life, causes conflict with friends which pushes them away. He prides himself on bringing them back in his fold. He will drive them away, tell me he doesn't think they will ever be friends, then go work overtime to win them back into his circle.

It's amazing to watch. He enjoys the challenge and almost always gets them back. This is some of his feed, his ability to get people to do whatever he chooses he wants them to do.

Also, my unpdh finds others on an unconscious level who are looking in some way for a "leader" to follow.  N's are often exciting to be around and many people live vicariously through their excitement. As long as they are connected in some way it makes them feel symbiotic with the N. Which in turn feeds the N's ego. Everyone wins except for the target. And no one in that circle will ever understand.

[j_curren]

MIL - is like your mom.  Longtime friends, some who I really connect with.  Once I became more aware of her tactics, I began to notice some of her 'closest' friends have her on MC.  Recently, one of her sisters went NC.  Of course, MIL has no clue why.    She spends her days calling these friends, farming for drama and taking joy in others misery.  I take some pleasure in knowing she's calling my ex - probably several times a day - grilling him about our divorce.  Has to be driving him nuts.   

[SeaBreeze]

My uNPD mother passed away 6 years ago. To this day, both her best friend since high school and her closest cousin message my brother and me on her birthday, death date, and holidays to tell us how much they miss her and loved her, and remind us that surely we miss and love her too. Neither my brother nor I have the heart to tell either of these ladies how much CRAP our mother talked about them behind their backs for our entire lives. It also strikes me they are acting as her flying monkeys from beyond the grave. Mind you, my mother burned many bridges over the years so she mostly ruined friendships, but these 2 people stayed loyal to her. So yes, PDs can have long term friendships, but I question how meaningful those friendships may be?

[Hazy111]

Cat, I dont know whether youve read "Understanding the Borderline Mother " ( apologies if you have) but the description of your mother is a classic type.  My sister and a few ive dated and worked with come to mind. 

" All Borderlines are narcissistic not all narcissists are borderlines".   You describe her as both NPD and BPD. The Queen and the Waif are the "sociable" Borderlines

The Queen can be very charming and seductive pursuing attention to fill the void of the underlying deprivation. The Queen can be quite competitive and envious of others and devalues others who are a threat to her or who do not provide gratification or special treatment. This sense of deprivation often impairs moral judgment and the Queen can be vindictive without feeling guilt or remorse. The Queen will rarely give credit to others unless there is something in it for her. People quite attracted to the Queen initially, because she usually has quite a charismatic personality, will sooner or later get burned by the Queen when they realize that for the Queen everything must be about her and if possible they will avoid her.

The charm can drop in an instance. Ahh Xmas is coming and my uBPD Queen sis will be in her element

[Cat of the Canals]

Cat, I dont know whether youve read "Understanding the Borderline Mother " ( apologies if you have) but the description of your mother is a classic type.  My sister and a few ive dated and worked with come to mind. 

" All Borderlines are narcissistic not all narcissists are borderlines".   You describe her as both NPD and BPD. The Queen and the Waif are the "sociable" Borderlines

The Queen can be very charming and seductive pursuing attention to fill the void of the underlying deprivation. The Queen can be quite competitive and envious of others and devalues others who are a threat to her or who do not provide gratification or special treatment. This sense of deprivation often impairs moral judgment and the Queen can be vindictive without feeling guilt or remorse. The Queen will rarely give credit to others unless there is something in it for her. People quite attracted to the Queen initially, because she usually has quite a charismatic personality, will sooner or later get burned by the Queen when they realize that for the Queen everything must be about her and if possible they will avoid her.

The charm can drop in an instance. Ahh Xmas is coming and my uBPD Queen sis will be in her element

Yep. That's the book where the lightbulb finally went off, and I quit doubting that she was PD. My mom is 100% Queen, without a doubt. There are lines of dialogue in some of the case studies in that book that are word-for-word things she has said to me. 

I've told this story before, but I collected pinback buttons in high school and came home once with one that said "Q.F.U.: Queen of the F-ing Universe." As soon as she saw it, her eyes went wide and she said, "You think you're the QFU? HA! More like the QFU-in-training. The only QFU here is me." This was over 20 years ago, and she still signs birthday/holiday cards/etc. with "QFU" instead of her name or "Mom." I thought of it as an inside joke until I came Out of the FOG and realized she really thinks she's Queen of the effing universe.

[j.banquo]

My uNPD mother passed away 6 years ago. To this day, both her best friend since high school and her closest cousin message my brother and me on her birthday, death date, and holidays to tell us how much they miss her and loved her, and remind us that surely we miss and love her too

That must feel awful...

[j.banquo]

The Queen can be very charming and seductive pursuing attention to fill the void of the underlying deprivation. The Queen can be quite competitive and envious of others and devalues others who are a threat to her or who do not provide gratification or special treatment. This sense of deprivation often impairs moral judgment and the Queen can be vindictive without feeling guilt or remorse. The Queen will rarely give credit to others unless there is something in it for her. People quite attracted to the Queen initially, because she usually has quite a charismatic personality, will sooner or later get burned by the Queen when they realize that for the Queen everything must be about her and if possible they will avoid her.

She is also exactly like this.

[j.banquo]

I collected pinback buttons in high school and came home once with one that said "Q.F.U.: Queen of the F-ing Universe." As soon as she saw it, her eyes went wide and she said, "You think you're the QFU? HA! More like the QFU-in-training. The only QFU here is me." This was over 20 years ago, and she still signs birthday/holiday cards/etc. with "QFU" instead of her name or "Mom." I thought of it as an inside joke until I came Out of the FOG and realized she really thinks she's Queen of the effing universe.

That's so hilarious; it's a shame it turns horrifying 200 milliseconds into the joke, ugh.

[olivegirl]

When my uBpd mother was very much the Queen, she had so many friends!

She was basically your popular Mean Girl.

She loved trolling other women for their vulnerabilities and hardships.  She's make a dig about so-and-so's divorce, another biting remark about so-and-so's financial problems. 

And yeah, as an attention-seeking gossip, she held a lot of social currency that intrigued other people.  Mom was never boring.  She brought the latest salacious sordid news and was able to attract quite a following.  My mother felt like a rock star, grandiose.  "Everyone seeks me out," she'd say.  More like people were interested in the latest gossip.

What transpired next is she created a lot of enemies.  The other women who have been the target of her cruelty never forgot.

And as soon as my impulsive mother got humbled by her own inevitable realities, she has since morphed to Hermit.

[Hazy111]

another biting remark    My sis to a T.  Ohh how i wont miss this again at Xmas. The constant back biting about everyone . The re gifted or second hand present for the umpteenth year running....

She actually had one of those " jokey " signs up in her kitchen about " sarcasm" like she was proud of it. She seemed to have a plethora of  " friends "  (supply)  who no doubt would be amazed about how casually dismissive and belittling she was was about them behind their backs.

[Dandelion]

i believe PD is the norm  (the more i came Out of the FOG,, the more i read the more, the more i understood )

A great post overall Hazy, including the above.  I look around me and am suspicious of quite a few people these days.  Long monologues. Angry or petty spiteful meltdowns, waifdoms, "good deed" boasters etc - all signs I'm more aware of now.  My own mother was generally more subtle though.  It was usually only "me", a couple of other family members and one friend who saw the other side of her. I was the only one who saw her total viciousness though.

[Coyote23]

Gosh. I just read about your mother, the way she conducts relationships, the types of friends she has, and the way she performs and I have to say I think you answered your own question! 

[Hazy111]

Thanks Dandelion. 

As someone said on this site "once you see it you cant unsee it" which gives me a really jaundiced view of humanity .

[j.banquo]

I think I can relate to all the replies, which isn't surprising.

I was thinking the other day that he whole time I've been defending them against each other (always), I was supposed to pass this stuff on? They really don't know I've been mediating between all of them this whole time, protecting them from each other? Even strongly hinting "your words and behavior about this person are odd, and very harsh," things like "she can be that way, however she does do it to everyone, and so do I, so it's okay with me, plus that's what friendship is, loving people including their faults..."

The time recently when she asked me to do something, changed the date and time, then something else weird relating to it, I said "there are probably other options, you must have friends who could drive you," the answer was a poisonous "NO." That probably feels horrible.