How do they win the framing battle?

[square]

Okay, so H believes I am responsible for him.

But... I believe he is responsible for him.

Sounds like a stalemate, right? Two people with two different views. Except - he wins the framing battle. Not 100%, but the leverage favors him somehow. How?

We both look at an issue. He frames the issue as me being manipulative, evil, lazy, conniving. I frame the issue as him being irresponsible and lazy. But my frame not only doesn't touch him, it reinforces his own frame. That I think he is being lazy proves I am lazy and evil - and says nothing at all about him.

Well, I don't want to be manipulative, evil, lazy, or conniving. So I:

1) Review the issue in my head and question if I am

2) Feel shame wherever I think he might have even a small point

3) Adjust my behavor in the future to try to avoid the labels again, at first just the things I think there might be a rational basis for, and eventually even absurd things

But my frames simply reinforce his. He is impervious. How can that be? Why does he lack the slightest desire to be pleasing in my eyes?

Why do I take his views even slightly seriously? And how can he discard mine so fully?

How can I discard his frames completely?

[Poison Ivy]

I understand the difficult feelings you're struggling with. One thing that might help is to keep in mind that a person's behavior is a better measure of character than are the person's words.

[Cat of the Canals]

I've thought on this a lot. How can the PDs in my life take SO LITTLE responsibility for their actions and behaviors while I have taken on so much, even to the point of sometimes thinking that I am the cause of their behavior?

Patrick Teahan talks about something called "exiled shame" in one of his videos, but now I can't remember which one... but the gist is that many PDs have an enormous amount of guilt and shame going all the way back to childhood, but instead of dealing with those feelings, they heap on layers and layers and layers of denial in order to distance themselves from it. And one of the fastest and easiest ways to deny fault for something is to blame it on someone else.

I'm not sure if you can discard his frames as completely as he does yours. You genuinely listen to and analyze his points because you have basic empathy and a desire to be a decent person. I don't think PDs have either of those things, because they are too terrified at their core to ever admit fault or wrongdoing... unless it suits their agenda. (i.e. when they are waifing, and then it's more manipulation than it is genuine acknowledgement anyway.)

[pianissimo]

It's possible he affects the way you see yourself because he is good at playing the victim. How is his emotional state when you have these arguments? Offended, aghast, like "how could you!!???", "Life is already hard for me", "I'm beaten down at work, and now you...", "But the other day, you did this, and I didn't say anything."  That's one of the things about trying to resolve a conflict with people with PDs. They are hurt and offended if you don't let them be so abusive. When you are with them, you end up wondering if you are the bad guy. Having people around makes this worse because they don't get it.

Something I noticed in your dispute is that there seems to be a big difference in the character defects you identified in each other. Irresponsible and lazy are relatively neutral character defects, they are about how we conduct ourselves in life. Manipulative and evil though?
So, you tell your husband that he is irresponsible and lazy, and it sounds like he takes offense with that, and doesn't do anything to change anything about his behaviour, but your husband tells you that you are evil and manipulative, and you don't take offense but try to change the behaviour he points out? This is possibly why you lose the argument. He doesn't admit it when he is at fault, but you do.

[square]

I've thought on this a lot. How can the PDs in my life take SO LITTLE responsibility for their actions and behaviors while I have taken on so much, even to the point of sometimes thinking that I am the cause of their behavior?

Patrick Teahan talks about something called "exiled shame" in one of his videos, but now I can't remember which one... but the gist is that many PDs have an enormous amount of guilt and shame going all the way back to childhood, but instead of dealing with those feelings, they heap on layers and layers and layers of denial in order to distance themselves from it. And one of the fastest and easiest ways to deny fault for something is to blame it on someone else.

I'm not sure if you can discard his frames as completely as he does yours. You genuinely listen to and analyze his points because you have basic empathy and a desire to be a decent person. I don't think PDs have either of those things, because they are too terrified at their core to ever admit fault or wrongdoing... unless it suits their agenda. (i.e. when they are waifing, and then it's more manipulation than it is genuine acknowledgement anyway.)

So, exiled shame is the process of externalizing shame?

H is definitely consumed by shame. Which is useless. Guilt - you can do better. Shame - you're just broken, period. He is consciously aware of his shame. Not sure if he is conscious of his coping mechanism, which is to prioritize blame in any and all situations.

So that's a good point. By having an EXISTENTIAL level of shame, it's basically a life or death issue to frame an issue in a way he can live with. What may be uncomfortable or even disturbing for me to face about myself is all the greater for him.

H is a bizarre case and can admit to wrongdoing and defects, I'd say to a greater degree than I can. But it's like he has multiple personalities. And the personality that protects him is completely dissociated from the core. I might feel more or less open to admitting wrongdoing depending on how safe I feel, and that is normal. But I'm not a different person depending on my moods, and I kind of feel like the PD H literally does not think or know what Core H thinks and knows. Not just protecting it, but completely dissociated from it.

[square]

It's possible he affects the way you see yourself because he is good at playing the victim. How is his emotional state when you have these arguments? Offended, aghast, like "how could you!!???", "Life is already hard for me", "I'm beaten down at work, and now you...", "But the other day, you did this, and I didn't say anything."  That's one of the things about trying to resolve a conflict with people with PDs. They are hurt and offended if you don't let them be so abusive. When you are with them, you end up wondering if you are the bad guy. Having people around makes this worse because they don't get it.

My husband has one emotion only, and it's anger. Playing the waif is not really his thing. Maybe it's similar but it's the difference between "how could you hurt me?" vs "you're a terrible person." He won't play hurt. Too bad for him, it would probably work better on me lol.

But sure, he is extremely talented at accusing me of all sorts of mefarious things. Years ago, I couldn't even come up with that kind of dialogue in my head, now I can rattle off his greatest hits with ease. Repitition is a key tactic of theirs, they install the messages into our minds with sheer brutal repitition.

Something I noticed in your dispute is that there seems to be a big difference in the character defects you identified in each other. Irresponsible and lazy are relatively neutral character defects, they are about how we conduct ourselves in life. Manipulative and evil though?
So, you tell your husband that he is irresponsible and lazy, and it sounds like he takes offense with that, and doesn't do anything to change anything about his behaviour, but your husband tells you that you are evil and manipulative, and you don't take offense but try to change the behaviour he points out? This is possibly why you lose the argument. He doesn't admit it when he is at fault, but you do.

Interesting feedback. I don't call him irresponsible or lazy, but they are labels that would summarize my thoughts. I'm not even thinking "he's lazy" but more like "ugh, look at this mess!" And not saying it out loud because it will lead to an explosion and change nothing. My only options are to like it or leave.

He does call me the labels and names - lazy, selfish, evil, etc. And is quite passionate about it.

I don't remember what issue I had in mind when I wrote this. I actually can hear him saying "well that sounds pretty lazy of you" when I tried to defend myself on an issue he had with me. It's not the worst thing to say on its face but it was extremely invalidating - was trying to tell him of my struggle with something, and it may have involved my eyesight (going blind) and he just blew it off with that cutting remark. It wasn't ling ago but I have some kind of amnesia, either an ordinary physical memory issue, or a psychological coping mechanism so I don't dwell on all the stabbings to my heart over the years. Truly don't kniw which. Also his boice is programmed into my mind that i "hold on to everything" and "never let anything go."

Rambling. Sorry. It's been incredibly hard lately.

[Lauren17]

Square, they win the framing battle by moving the frame.
The three steps you've listed out are what nons do based on a specific situation.  It's healthy and useful. A PD in a similar situation looks through the frame, feels uncomfortable, and looks somewhere else.
This is an example of tending toward your own actions and beliefs and leaving the PD to his. 
Easier said than done, I know.

[pianissimo]

I hope you are taking care of yourself. It's extremely hard to sustain a relationship with a person with a PD. They are good at finding your emotional weaknesses and vulnerabilities and play on that. I hope you give yourself break when you feel like you aren't doing your best, and give yourself space to be less than perfect.

[Cat of the Canals]

H is a bizarre case and can admit to wrongdoing and defects, I'd say to a greater degree than I can. But it's like he has multiple personalities. And the personality that protects him is completely dissociated from the core. I might feel more or less open to admitting wrongdoing depending on how safe I feel, and that is normal. But I'm not a different person depending on my moods, and I kind of feel like the PD H literally does not think or know what Core H thinks and knows. Not just protecting it, but completely dissociated from it.

I think that's a really good way of phrasing it... that PD H is completely dissociated from Core H. I've observed a lot of that in PDmom and PDmil. Both of them might as well have multiple personalities if you compare what they're like on good behavior vs PD behavior.

What does an admission of wrongdoing look like for him, out of curiosity?

[square]

Well, lately it's just a simple apology - "sorry I yelled at you" for example. I accept the apology with MC and we both pretend like it never happened. The End.

It used to be that he could sometimes talk about the struggle inside. He has said he has a darkness inside him. I think the darkness may be paranoia - not dismissing that, quite the opposite. It's like he is a good man with an external force inside him. He can see a situation in the worst possible light and then later admit he was totally wrong to think that way at all. But he will again.

I once described someone else as sometimes being "infected" with anxiety, like an inflammation that comes and goes, and he said "boy do I know what that's like." (Though I am starting to feel for him it's more a paranoia inflammation than anxiety per se). So he is pretty self aware, knows his state of mind changes. The calm one can admit regret, can say he was wrong, that he shouldn't have said X, that he shouldn't have even thought X. Not always, of course, but who among us can?

He has even admitted three times over the last maybe 15 years that he thought he might be a narcissist. Imho he is not. He knows a fair amount (for a layperson) about NPD but nothing about the other PDs. So it's quite an insight that he could identify something in himself here. Thankfully I always was able to emphatically disagree with him. My agreeing in any way would not help at all. But his response to my disagreement has always been "I dunno..." (as in he suspected he was right) rather than "WHEW well that's great then!"

But to admit insight he has to be in a state of regret, which sometimes happens when he's been particularly awful - and sometimes not. You never know. He sometimes seems totally clueless about how utterly awful he can be.

[Cat of the Canals]

That's interesting. I've only ever experienced the fauxpology ("Well, I'm sorry you're upset.") and the waifpology ("I guess I'm just a terrible person."). But I do believe that all PDs are a spectrum, and so certainly some are capable of offering seemingly genuine apologies.

He sometimes seems totally clueless about how utterly awful he can be.

I've wondered this about PDmom. I can't think of a time she's ever acknowledged one of her rages. She blows up, and then she cools off, and then we all pretend that nothing ever happened. I used to think she really was pretending, but over time, I've started to wonder if she might genuinely not remember it. 

Someone posted a link to the feelings vs. facts and dissociation article in the toolbox the other day, and I started thinking how much my mother doesn't seem "herself" when she's in rage mode. In Understanding the Borderline Mother, the author describes "the look" when a borderline mother goes from "good" to "bad." My mother's whole physical demeanor changes. Her posture, the set of her jaw, the look in her eyes. Even her voice sounds different.

The last time she raged at me, I had a distinct sense that if I brought up the things she'd said to me, she would claim to have not said them. And I think she'd believe that. I doubt somewhat it's full amnesia. I suspect she remembers something. But maybe it's foggy enough that she can override it with all that denial.

[square]

I have wondered about that amnesia, if it's real or if they know full well but are hell bent on being right and winning the conflict.

What you wrote about your mom rings familiar with my husband but even more so with my best friend as a teen, who had BPD. She just looked different somehow, depending on her mood. And the worst was seeing her just totally in the black. I remember walkng into a room once and seeing her like that, unexpectedly - I felt like I'd been gutpunched just looking at her face. She didn't even say anything, just looked at me. I've seen angry people but there's something about the worst PD look that is on another level.

She was my peer, I can't imagine being a child and seeing that on their mother 

[1footouttadefog]

It's because he had a viewpoint that his side wins no matter what only his needs matter.

Your view is that you both need to work together toward both parties needs being met.

He can always win you can seldom win.

You would have to become less concerned with achieving the meet in Ng of his needs t in win more often. 

You can still care but need not to own whether or not they are met.

To do this you will have to be ok me less of a caretaker, start valuing self care more and find a new identity for yourself outside if being his caretaker

Disengaging emotionally from his needs being met and developing friendships outside of the relationship will help.

[DetachedAndEngaged]

As long as there is a battle, a PD will _always_ win. They live for battles.

The only way to avoid them winning and you losing is to sidestep battling them altogether.

Thus, the ultimate power of no-contact and the limited (but, still helpful) power of grey rock and medium chill.

The more my wife and I have limited the presence of PDs in our lives, the better our lives. This is our second holiday day season away from our families of origin -- we've never been happier.

[square]

Yes, I can relate to being logical/rational. I know none of us are as rational as we like to think we are but... yeah, I try to work in that framework. I often check my beliefs by flipping them around and checking if they still make sense if applied in ways that don't benefit me as much, would I still think it was fair or rational?

But yes, PD operates outside of external rationality and adheres only to a ME logic, which bends and even breaks as much as needed to fill the ME needs.

To varying degrees, healthy people try to negotiate a frame they can agree on - not as much as we should, maybe, we're not saints, but we TRY to some extent.

But if one person isn't at all engaged in that goal, it can't happen. So we both lose.