How did you know it was time for NC?

[theblackcat]

My dad is a NPD who, in recent years, has also become entangled in far-right conspiracy theories that are exacerbated by the Covid-19 pandemic. While communication with him has always been difficult due to the gaslighting and his masterful ability to manipulate every conversation so that he ends up looking like the victim or the hero, depending on his goal in the moment, it has become near-impossible these days. I haven't had a conversation with my dad in the past two years that has not devolved into an un-winnable political battle and covid-war. He is incapable of having a conversation without eventually bringing it back to everyone (myself included) being "sheep" who are soon going to "die" due to side effects of the vaccine. I am bombarded daily by his far-right articles and covid propaganda despite setting clear boundaries that this is not how I want to communicate with him.

There have been two incidents lately that are making me think that it might be time to commit to NC. The first occurred at my family home where I was visiting for the evening. My dad came home, lingered in his truck in the driveway for half an hour (already a bad sign, making me think he was likely under the influence), before coming inside and asking "how I was doing." Within three minutes, my dad had me doing verbal gymnastics to try and give satisfactory answers that wouldn't start a fight (an impossibility, I know). Before I knew it, he was off on another tangent. While I initially tried to stay calm, I ended up crying and begging him to listen to me, to see me. I'm your daughter, standing in front of you and pleading with you to love me. He made some snarky comment and I told him I would never come home again then walked out into the torrential rain. As I calmed down, I realized that the most frightening and unsettling thing about the incident was my dad's complete lack of emotional response. He looked at me dead-pan almost seeming to enjoy the rise that he got out of me and was completely unfazed by an incident that feels so defining in my life. Since then, he sends messages about how we need to "learn to communicate with one another," and long, patronizing tirades to justify his behaviour (sticking with the "I'm a rebel at heart" and you just don't understand anything message).

The most recent one occurred when my sibling unexpectedly had to go to the hospital due to heart trouble and breathing difficulty. My dad heard this news, raged at my mom for "killing my brother" by allowing him to get the vaccine, stormed to the hospital unmasked and berated the paramedics and doctors, detracting from my brother's care and drawing all the needed attention from him so that my dad could have his stage. I woke up after sleeping with my phone on do not disturb to an onslaught of messages asking if my brother was okay. The first text happened to be one from my dad, "call me immediately." Unthinkingly, I did just that. My dad answered the phone and told me that my brother had a heart attack and would never be the same again. I have never been as afraid as I was in that moment. I fell to the ground in shock believing that my brother was dead or near to it. If you haven't already guessed, it turns out my brother DID NOT have a heart attack, but this story fit the most with my dad's anti-vax beliefs and so he decided to tell me that's what happened. My brother was sent home from the hospital within hours, it was likely a panic attack, and he is currently healthy at home. My dad has yet to apologize for detracting from my brother's care and choosing to give me the shocking and painful misinformation that my brother was in critical condition. He continues to play the victim and the hero, the only one who can "truly see" what's going on despite my family's declarations of all the pain he's caused us.

So, my question for you, fellow adult children of NPD's: how did you know when it was time to go no contact? How did you stick with it? I'm accessing the resources in the toolkit but would like to hear from you too.

With care,
theblackcat

[guitarman]

Your post reminds me so much of my undiagnosed BPD/NPD sister.

After our mother passed away two years ago I have gone no contact with her. Our father passed away over ten years ago. It only seems like yesterday. He felt suicidal because he couldn't cope with all her extreme behaviour.

One incident occurred when our frail elderly mother was very ill in A&E in Resus I was with her there. My sister rang the hospital to talk to her. She ended up talking to me about herself and her own problems! I couldn't believe it. It was all about her and how she felt.

I worry about the impact of my sister's behaviour on her adult children. They have managed to move miles away from her and are rarely in contact with her now.

My sister hasn't contacted me so it's made it a bit easier. I am still full of FOG fear, obligation and guilt but with the help of this forum and a BPD carers group that I have been attending for years I have decided to calmly put my needs first.

I have realised that I can't change anyone else's behaviour I can only change and control my own. That is very liberating. I am not responsible for my sister. I have realised that she is never going to change. I used to have hope that she would.

I don't want to see her ever again. I've had enough. I care but can't cope any more. I'm not trying to punish her I am looking after my own mental and physical health.

Practising regular Mindfulness meditations has helped me to cope. I follow the Mindfulness teacher Tara Brach www.tarabrach.com

I also visit The Frazzled Café www.frazzledcafe.org regularly for free Zoom meetings where people from all over the world talk about their feelings in small supportive non judgemental groups.

Staying calm is my super power. I do not feed the narcissistic supply. I learned about medium chill and grey rock.

Abuse thrives in the darkness. We all need to shine a light on it wherever it occurs.

You don't have to set yourself on fire in order to help keep someone else warm.

Look after yourself. No one else is going to do that for you.

Do whatever you need to do in order to keep yourself safe. You matter.

You need to work on building your self esteem. Little by little things can change for you.

[WinterStar]

For me, I felt like the NC decision was made for me. NPDdad went to prison for child sexual abuse images. I kept in contact, visited him there, sent him things to do. And when his release came up, I let him know I needed to know he was getting help so that he wouldn't reoffend. Well, the blame game started as he passed of responsibility to everyone else. He said he didn't need help. There really wasn't anything left to say at that point.

[Spring Butterfly]

I'm not fully NC yet moved to comment on my journey looking back. I stayed in contact through my process of individuating. It was important to me that I find my voice. I learned how to have a gentle voice with boundaries that are 100% in my control. It helped repair my self worth and self esteem. I dialed back my involvement in their daily life as a part of learning my boundaries. I chose what to do with my time and my energy - mental, emotional and physical. I chose to take a clear stand and align with my husband. All of it was not to their liking at all and as a result of my boundaries they chose to pull away and withdraw love more and more over time.

Somewhere in all of that we (hubby and I) decided to join a different faith community. That meant an entirely different circle of regular associates. That meant we didn't see them anymore on a regular basis unless we reached out to them or they reached out to us.

There is very little contact at this point except an occasional text message. Since I don't desire to hear any tone of voice I choose never to call on the phone. Every few months I may or may not send a message. I went from all day every day fully accessible to non existent contact. As they get older that may change but they have opted not to have me as their health care agent so there's really nothing for me to do at this point.

I decided there's no need for a NC advertisement, notice or discussion. Truth is I don't need their permission. I just chose to live my life and not care what they thought of it because it's my life to live. They have zero control so none of it matters to me at this point. I'm free

ETA - consider why you choose to call and talk on a regular basis. Consider dialing back until you're comfortable. Consider a boundary like "that topic is not something I want to talk about so I'm going to go" OR just end the conversation every time it goes sideways. Consider limiting the amount of time you alot to calls. Start conversations with "I have exactly 2 minutes and just called for x reason" Set the stove timer and have it go off, gotta go, talk later, bye. Things like "oh I hate to interrupt you but just spilled [insert messy thing] and need to get it cleaned up. Start to be unavailable, do not return calls right away. Setting a personal boundary of "I don't take calls after 7pm" is totally ok as an adult individual. Offhandedly let others know right out not to expect instant response. Start to be unavailable and make that be normal for you. I assure you it's quite normal for us to do all of this and more. Check out the Medium Chill Toolbox topic. Practice saying that stuff out loud. Let your tongue and vocal cords get comfortable with your words and voice standing up for yourself. Start to have needs, wishes and desires that you're busy with like in the toolbox topic Working on Yourself. You can do this!

[pianissimo]

I don't know if it is possible to see it in the moment, but your father telling you that your brother had a heart attack is such a cruel thing to do. These kinds of things make talking to them so difficult. In times of emergency, fact-checking is the last thing on anybody's mind. It's so horrific to think that they choose these kinds of moments to manipulate you.

In practice, I'm in LC. But, this is not an outcome of any consciously made decision. I always wanted to live away from my parents, so I got out as soon as I saw the opportunity. Also, I  have always had reduced contact with them.  When I think about it, perhaps I wasn't such a good supply for them until a couple of years ago. It seems like they feed from their family drama a lot. I guess my mother tries to hoover me from time to time.

[blacksheep7]

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. Your father's rampage and blame at the hospital, nothing will change him.  For you own peace of mind, mostly your mental health, do what you can do avoid him when possible if you do not choose nc. He has no respect for you or anybody else for that matter.  He is in his own world.
A rebel at heart, with bad behaviors, not even for good causes, unfortunately.  He is mentally ill. 

I went nc with NMcovert a first time twelve years ago and reconnected three years later.  I was still in the FOG, had no knowledge about pds and this forum. Went back to nc four years later.
She showed me xxx times that I could not trust her anymore, her continuing emotional blackmail and  sarcasm, to make sure she was getting her message across (not enough attention/phonecalls ) throughout a lifetime plus NF's demands and control. Always criticized, badmouthed us, her children (4) to one another.  Triangulation.

Revenge at nc the first time.  This happened when NF died, I took care of her. She wanted enmeshement, was a victim.
I suffered anxiety, panic attack etc, all my life. She brought the past back, ptsd, raging NF.  I had enough!

take care theblack cat, hugs    I've got one

[Jolie40]

So, my question for you, fellow adult children of NPD's: how did you know when it was time to go no contact?

a chaotic year with FOO (all of them, siblings & PD parent) was affecting my health
I was only able to sleep 3 hrs due to all the stress

my health was suffering due to lack of sleep so I had to go NC

[moglow]

For me it was realizing that my mother didn't listen to me, wasn't interested, and only wanted to hear her own voice. When she spoke to me it was with anger and contempt, and she really seemed to enjoy causing harm. There were a lot of put downs and demeaning comments, a sarcastic bent to just about everything she said to me. I know it's not personal [anything i have or could do] because i think she's that way with everyone around her. When that really sunk in, it changed something inside me and made me realize how much time I had wasted.

I recently called her after six months silence and nothing had changed. Still no interest, not one question about how or what I was doing. It was still just another recitation about all the things that were going on in her head, like that internal conversation that she was having had never stopped.

I don't have any plans in the foreseeable future to call or contact her in any way. I don't really see the point. It's like I've finally gone as numb as she seems to be, and there's nothing to say anymore. I never thought I would feel so little for my own mother  and know with every fiber of my being that that works both ways. It's not necessarily a happy thought  but at least it's more peaceful.

[moglow]

While I initially tried to stay calm, I ended up crying and begging him to listen to me, to see me. I'm your daughter, standing in front of you and pleading with you to love me. He made some snarky comment and I told him I would never come home again then walked out into the torrential rain. As I calmed down, I realized that the most frightening and unsettling thing about the incident was my dad's complete lack of emotional response. He looked at me dead-pan almost seeming to enjoy the rise that he got out of me and was completely unfazed by an incident that feels so defining in my life.

This hurts me for you, that he'd seemingly get some sick satisfaction from your pain. It's so painfully familiar.

For me, no contact was something I'd thought of for many years but always guilted myself out of. I felt that lingering sense of obligation to my mother, come what may. Then I had months of relentless anger and ugliness from her, no sign of it stopping, no consideration of anything I said that didn't fit her chosen narrative.

Every contact and mother just dug in deeper, until one day I quietly hung up the phone - I wasn't angry. It wasn't out of revenge or some kind of punishment, I just refused to take it on anymore. I was like that sponge that's saturated and one last drop sends water flowing elsewhere.

Understand it's not an easy decision and many would never understand. Your first responsibility really is to and for yourself. Others don't have to understand and you don't have to explain yourself. Not to anyone, including your father.

[JustKathy]

Hi theblackcat,

I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this. Your father's vaccine refusal could impact your physical health along with the emotional distress that you already have. What a terrible position to be in.

As for NC, like WinterStar, I felt that the decision was made for me when I went NC with my Nmother. We had a huge blowout on the phone where she went infantile and started screaming and crying for help. Something in me just said "enough" and I hung up on her. That was it. I never spoke to her again.

Your dad telling you that your brother had a heart attack is despicable and is something that also happened to me. A few years after going NC with my mother I also decided to go NC with my enabling father. At that time I changed my phone number and he was desperate to get the new one. He sent me a letter saying that my sister had been seriously injured in a car accident and might die, and that I needed to call him right away so he could tell me what hospital she was in. There was no car accident, at least not one that sent her to the hospital. That incident reaffirmed that going NC with him was the right decision. Scaring one child with a false alarm about the health of a sibling is about as low as it gets.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

I knew it was time for NC because I just felt so horrible about who I was as a person when I was around my FOO. I never did anything wrong but felt so ashamed and guilty and burdened. There was not just one incident, but instead a constant undercurrent. When I tried to resolve any one particular situation, they just showed disdain toward me. They teamed up in unison against me for just about anything. I felt like I always had to prove I was a good person to them so they would finally stop being so mean to me.

I think the circumstances that bring us to NC can vary for everyone. I think it is something you just know in your heart and your mind. For me it did not come from a place of hate or anger. It came from innate knowing that nothing would ever get better, and if I stayed, I personally would get worse. It sounds dramatic but NC was about choosing my life and my health over my FOO.

[Liketheducks]

I'm SO sorry you're having to deal with this.   It is brutal.   
I went NC with my dad when I moved out of the house at 18.   He had pointed a gun at me the month before my high school graduation.   He was drunk.   His sister, my Aunt offered me a place to stay and I jumped at the chance.   He was NC or VLC from that day forward.   He just wasn't safe.    I still tried every few years, but each time it was obvious that it was really unhealthy for me to be doing that.   30 years we were estranged.    With COVID, he called me out of the blue....apologized for what he had done and told me that he wanted me to know that he always loved me and was proud of me.   Will he acknowledge the horrible things he did....nope.   I don't need him to at this point.   I  don't let him into my "inner sphere" of trusted people.   That isn't who he is.   But, I can do VLC with him.   Surprisingly, it is easier than with my mom.   He has no expectations of me and has reached a point in his life where if we do chat, he's glad for any contact.   I don't really care what he says at this point....and he no longer says things just to provoke.

Mom was trickier.   She was living with me....years after they had split and I had gone NC with Dad.    I had a front row ticket to her contribution to their dysfunction.   It was one evening when my brother started down the path my father did.   He showed up drunk one night, threatened to kill me.   My husband jumped to my rescue.   I had SO carefully crafted my life to avoid the repeat of this kind of chaos for my kids sake.   (Insert the ironic eye roll here.   I had KNOW idea that I needed to work hard on so many things).   My mother's response was...."IF they could just get along".   I needed my mom to  see the chaos, but she couldn't and then added to it.   It was then that I knew I needed to make some drastic changes for me and my FOC.     Funnily enough, she told everyone that I cut her off....but really, it was the other way around.   So, in a way....she made it easy for me.    She still tells everyone that I'm the problem.   It is ok.   I have gone from GC to SG in a hot minute.....and I'm really ok with that.    I'm the villain of the story she tells herself.   I can't fix that for her.   

In the grand scheme of things, I knew being close with either of them made me feel mentally "ill".   Ill at ease.   Anxious.   Not enough.  Etc.   But, focusing on me, my self care first, then my FOC, and then everyone else....is what works for me.   It is a hierarchy that isn't in the NPD playbook.   Funnily enough.   I've been conditioned that me first is selfish.  But, me first is healing and growing.   

So many people struggle with this.   You're not alone.    Don't let people tell you that you have grand obligation to your parents.   For me, at this point in my life, I've learned that it is the other way around.   You didn't choose to be born....they choose to have you.   THEY have the obligation to be supportive, enriching, gracious, loving, encouraging....unless they are well and truly in harms way.....you are the child.    I know that eventually, as loving parents age, we want to care for them.   But, not out of obligation.   It should be because you learned support and love through them.   So many of us do not.   I wish it wasn't so.   But, I think that each of us that try to do a bit better than we got, helps.....

Hang in there.   Put the oxygen mask on you first.....make yourself safe.....the rest will fall into place.

[Boat Babe]

Your post reminds me so much of my undiagnosed BPD/NPD sister.

After our mother passed away two years ago I have gone no contact with her. Our father passed away over ten years ago. It only seems like yesterday. He felt suicidal because he couldn't cope with all her extreme behaviour.

One incident occurred when our frail elderly mother was very ill in A&E in Resus I was with her there. My sister rang the hospital to talk to her. She ended up talking to me about herself and her own problems! I couldn't believe it. It was all about her and how she felt.

I worry about the impact of my sister's behaviour on her adult children. They have managed to move miles away from her and are rarely in contact with her now.

My sister hasn't contacted me so it's made it a bit easier. I am still full of FOG fear, obligation and guilt but with the help of this forum and a BPD carers group that I have been attending for years I have decided to calmly put my needs first.

I have realised that I can't change anyone else's behaviour I can only change and control my own. That is very liberating. I am not responsible for my sister. I have realised that she is never going to change. I used to have hope that she would.

I don't want to see her ever again. I've had enough. I care but can't cope any more. I'm not trying to punish her I am looking after my own mental and physical health.

Practising regular Mindfulness meditations has helped me to cope. I follow the Mindfulness teacher Tara Brach www.tarabrach.com

I also visit The Frazzled Café www.frazzledcafe.org regularly for free Zoom meetings where people from all over the world talk about their feelings in small supportive non judgemental groups.

Staying calm is my super power. I do not feed the narcissistic supply. I learned about medium chill and grey rock.

Abuse thrives in the darkness. We all need to shine a light on it wherever it occurs.

You don't have to set yourself on fire in order to help keep someone else warm.

Look after yourself. No one else is going to do that for you.

Do whatever you need to do in order to keep yourself safe. You matter.

You need to work on building your self esteem. Little by little things can change for you.

I love all of what you've said Guitarman. I glad that you have detached, with love, from your sister.

Where there is high conflict, drama and toxicity, with no possibility of change, because PD, then NC really is the next step. It's hard, but staying in contact us harder. Also, with NC comes healing. So, so important.

[guitarman]

Thank you Boat Babe. It's not been easy.

X

[mary_poppins]

This is a great topic so thanks for starting it.

Your father... It would give me anxiety just to be around him. Mine is also a narc but is overt, he's a jerk out loud and you kind of know when he gets to be a jerk. So you can avoid him. He'll live you alone if you live him alone.
Anyway, I'm not NC with family but from what I've read and learnt about this type of abuse is that, we should not go NC because something seriously happened in the family that made us unwilling to be part of it. It is not one event that leads to NC but a series of abusive and emotionally challenging events that start from our childhood. The lack of care for us growing up, the neglect, not showing an interest in us as people with different personalities than them, the obnoxious use: using us for their comfort and safety, for their image and emotional needs, the gaslighting-destroying our perception of who they really are (evil) and what the world is (safe and welcoming) so that it fits into their abusive agenda (the more loving we think they are, the harder it will be for us to cut ties with them), making us fear them on and on, destroying our sense of self and confidence, the constant criticism and put-downs, the anxiety and depression we developed as a result of all this, and so on. Aren't these reasons good enough?

Yes, some relationships break after someone cheated or made a huge mistake that can't be forgiven but our parents started breaking our chance of having a relationship with them since birth. By thinking we're there to be used or seen as mere extensions of them.
These reasons are more than enough to me to choose NC. LC is just not a viable option in my case. LC brought so much pain and anxiety that it made me think it's not something i'd like to do.

NC is for our protection, for our inner child. We need to protect that defenceless child in us who didn't get to be seen, heard or listened to.

I wish there was one big event that made me consider NC with my family. But there are MANY events and I can't choose which one is the worst. There are all equally bad and they all deserve my attention.

[mary_poppins]

Your dad telling you that your brother had a heart attack is despicable and is something that also happened to me. A few years after going NC with my mother I also decided to go NC with my enabling father. At that time I changed my phone number and he was desperate to get the new one. He sent me a letter saying that my sister had been seriously injured in a car accident and might die, and that I needed to call him right away so he could tell me what hospital she was in. There was no car accident, at least not one that sent her to the hospital. That incident reaffirmed that going NC with him was the right decision. Scaring one child with a false alarm about the health of a sibling is about as low as it gets.

That's horrific! Just like OP's story.

[Hilltop]

I knew it was time for NC because I just felt so horrible about who I was as a person when I was around my FOO. I never did anything wrong but felt so ashamed and guilty and burdened. There was not just one incident, but instead a constant undercurrent. When I tried to resolve any one particular situation, they just showed disdain toward me.

It came from innate knowing that nothing would ever get better, and if I stayed, I personally would get worse.

Blueberry pancakes you really have described my life.  It's an undercurrent.  It's that feeling of disdain from them.  It's ongoing.  It's also not going to change. 

I was VVVLC moving toward NC. I'm sick of being hurt from being not even around them but just in limited contact.  I'm so tired of the disdain and how I feel about myself.  I feel worse in and around their company. 

At the moment I feel done. They are late 70s and it's not ever gotten better.  What is left,  nothing.