Moving Forward - Therapy vs Life Coaching vs ?

[JustKathy]

I hope this is the right place for this post.

My experience with therapy started over 25 years ago when I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. I started seeing both psychiatrists and therapists with mixed results. Some therapists had minimal understanding of NPD and caused me further trauma by not believing me. One called me a drama queen, another asked what I had done to my mother to make her hate me so much. That really messed me up. I finally found one who had a solid understanding of NPDmothers but sympathized with my enDad, constantly saying, "He did the best he could." I ended up walking away from therapy for several years because I just couldn't find the right one.

Fast forward to 2021 and help is now available from anywhere in the country (or world) via Zoom. A few weeks ago I tried something different and paid for a 90-minute session with a high-profile YouTuber/podcaster who wrote a book on narcissistic parents that was dead-on accurate. It was a very positive experience. I could have talked to her all day. She totally got everything I was saying, never questioned anything, and understood exactly what was happening with my family. But there were still some issues.

1. She told me to get out of this forum because I couldn't heal while being surrounded by other victims/survivors.
2. She wanted to focus on "erasing my mother" so that I could heal. Want I really need is someone to talk to while I navigate a difficult time, not someone who wants to "heal" me.
3. She told me to avoid therapists and to stick with life coaches because therapists stay in the moment where life coaches look to the future and erase the past. (I disagree with that. Nothing can ever get my past out of my head and "cure" me.)

The good news is that she never tried to sell me anything, which is something I expected to happen. No pressure to buy any books or join any groups. Not sure if I'll do follow-up visits, though.

So, with the Zoom option now out there, I'm also finding therapists/psychologists who specialize in narcissistic abuse that were previously too far away for me to visit, so I'm thinking of trying another Zoom session with a licensed therapist as well. This is all a new learning experience because help is available to me that wasn't there before.

So I'm wondering what others are doing? Are you happy with your therapist? How many did you go through before one really clicked? Are your visits in-person or Zoom/telephone? I'd love to hear from others about the kind of help that has worked for you. I do currently see a psychiatrist for my anxiety meds, but need to add a second person to the mix, not necessarily to "heal" me, but to help me through the difficult times. I need a hug, not a cure, if that makes sense.

[Andeza]

  Happy to give these any time! I agree the past can't be erased. We'll always carry scars. But, what we can do, is search for peace and contentment. I think acceptance over erasure, and mostly accepting that our childhoods were frankly crap and of course we've got things to work through. I also think there's a huge difference between pursuing healing and being "healed." I think pursuing healing is a lifelong exercise rather than a goal or target.

If the whole victims/survivors thing were true, then AA meetings would be pointless as well, right? I disagree with her there as well. We need a certain amount of validation around our experiences to shut down the voices of the PDs saying our abuse was normal, when it was not.

I don't have enough experience with either therapists or life coaches to offer an opinion, but I think you may benefit from looking into positive affirmation videos on YT. You've got a lot of really heavy stuff happening in your life right now, and I think you need someone to speak some kindness and love into your situation.

[JustKathy]

Thank you so much, Andeza. I agree that we need to work toward being in a better place but that being healed or cured just isn't in the cards. And how does one heal when the trauma is still ongoing?

I did locate a therapist online who looks promising and offers a free phone consultation so I may give her a call. There are some really great YouTube videos out there but I really need someone to talk to.

I so appreciate the hug. Sending one back atcha.

[Worthy of Care]

What you wrote makes sense to me. I find this and another forum to be helpful and supportive. People who are in similar "boats" understand in ways that others can't. I'm not sure what she meant by "erasing your mother." The reality is that she is/was your mother and who she was impacted you greatly. The current understanding of trauma is that trauma causes changes in your brain and it can't just be erased or forgotten. I think that her understanding of what therapists and what life coaches do is limited and in many case inaccurate. I spend a lot of time with my therapist dealing with my childhood trauma.

During covid lockdown, I did online therapy. At that point I had been seeing my therapist for about a month, so not long. I found online therapy to be very distressing, but that is because it hooked into my childhood trauma. Despite that, there was a lot of sharing, growth, and caring that happened during those many months of online therapy. If zoom is not upsetting to you, it might be a very wise choice and give you a wide choice of therapists to find one who can be the most helpful to you.

[Hilltop]

I tried a few therapists but honestly found them useless.  One told me she didn't understand why I was there, another told me that the insult I had explained was only my mother trying to tell me about life from my mother's perspective, another started telling me how great her relationship was with her own daughter after I mentioned I was there for problems with my own mother and the last one seemed annoyed at everything I said and didn't want to hear anything I had to say and just wanted to start on CBT straight away and didn't want to talk about any actual issues or problems I was having.  I left every one of them feeling worse off and like a complete failure.

I tend to disagree with most things this life coach has said.  This forum is a place for validation.  At first I didn't believe what was happening but after reading other stories here it validated how I felt.  It has also given me more understanding and ideas for how to cope.  AA has group meetings and lots of other groups including for domestic violence and PTSD have support groups.

I am not sure you can erase someone.  Wouldn't blocking that person or history just be like trying to block the emotions.  I use to think it was something you healed from and then moved on from, now I see that healing is a life long journey and I feel like I am moving towards acceptance but perhaps every now and again I will be upset over something.  I think that's ok.

Therapists have years of study for their qualifications, I am not sure what life coaches have to do for their qualifications however I don't agree that therapists just look at the now.  They use different techniques such as CBT/DBT so that the person will learn new techniques to handle life stressors, these new techniques will surely help the person in the future.  That's the whole point of them.  It would be interesting to know what techniques the life coach is going to use to help you in the future and erase your past.

Just because I had a few failures of therapists I still believe that if you find a good one, it would be very worthwhile.  I hope you find someone that fits what you are looking for.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hasn't she heard the one about those who don't know their past being condemned to repeat it?

I don't know, that whole thing about erasing your mother seems really off to me. I like what Andrea said about acceptance over erasure. I don't have the context for that remark, but dismissing therapy in favor of life coaching also seems... loopy. There are good and bad ones in both fields of course, but life coaching doesn't have anything close to the level of generally accepted practices or method or certification that therapy does. So it's hard to responsibly endorse "life coaching" as a general thing. And saying we drag you down here, how? You can't heal with other people dealing with similar issues? So Al-Anon and NA and all the other twelve step groups are dismissed? Or is it just ACONs who need to be quarantined from each other? Except we've felt isolated in our problems our whole lives and that belief only served to encourage us to stuff our problems... pretend they aren't there... erase them and put on that smile... oh wait.

I don't know which "personality" you talked to but it sounds like she knows what she knows and that's about as deep as it gets. I'm glad you found the book and the validation helpful but her next steps sound ill-informed to me.

[Hattie]

I have a great therapist who I saw in person for about a year, and then have been seeing over Zoom for 18 months because of the pandemic. I have found that although online therapy isn't quite as good as in person, it is still really helpful. I have healed considerably, by which I mean I dissociate a lot less, have fewer, less intense flashbacks, and have way better boundaries with the narcissists in my life.

I still find this forum helpful, particularly when my therapist takes a holiday.

It sounds like you know what you are looking for, but it might just take some time to find it. I too have had some bad and damaging therapists, but my current one is great. I gather that she had a narcissistic mother so she totally gets it all. She hasn't gone into any detail about her experiences but it is obvious from her level of empathy for it that she has a lot of lived experience.

I think therapy is needed if you are recovering from trauma, otherwise you are just going to repeat it (what Freud called the trauma repetition compulsion). I look at some life coaching stuff in YouTube too, and it seems interesting but kind of surface level.

[JustKathy]

Thank you all SO much for your thoughtful replies. This has been so helpful to me.

The woman I talked to wrote a book that was the best I've ever read on narc abuse, so I figured why not give it a try. But it really did bother me that she told me, right at the start, to leave this forum. I think her "method" is to get you out of the past and into the present so you can leave your trauma behind, but that one ain't happening. Those memories are in my head and they aren't coming out. And truthfully, I need those memories because they're helping me to piece together the puzzle that was my family structure. For me, understanding how and why things happened is more important to healing than trying to just "move on." She sent me a link to one of her podcasts but I only listened to a few minutes. It wasn't for me. You can figure out who she is. I'm not trying to be overly critical of her because she was extremely empathetic and did help me quite a bit. It's just not the kind of help I'm looking for.

https://www.blogtalkradio.com/randi-fine/2018/12/05/change-your-thoughts-change-your-life-with-kevin-murphy

I've definitely had some therapists say things that added to my trauma, but when I started therapy I was given names by my primary care doctor or my insurance company based on very broad criteria. I had experiences similar to Hilltop, where they took my mother's side because why on earth would your own mother want to intentionally hurt you? 

Thankfully, we now have the ability to do extensive online searches so I'm confident I can find someone better. I actually prefer Zoom sessions since my anxiety disorder makes it hard for me to drive. I've found a few who do free initial phone consultations so there's nothing to lose if I get a bad vibe from them. So I agree, a licensed therapist is probably what I should be looking for. I'm going to try a few of the free consultations and will let you know how it goes.

Let me add that this thread is one of the reason why I need this forum. I'm not leaving. Heh heh, you guys are stuck with me. 

[tragedy or hope]

IMO (please note... opinion)

I got wisdom and life coaching with results, when I joined the 12 programs. You choose which may apply to you. The literature and the examples of carrying out that message changed many of my quirks and personality. Find a faith community you can identify with...

I went through 3 therapists, 4 if I count the one who crossed boundaries when I was going to college, who by the way I reported.

Therapists are people with problems, why do I say that? Because they are human. Sometimes they can project things onto your situation that are not valid. They truly are just people who listen (in their own frame of reference) and have read books on what things might work for a situation. They are not mind readers, psychics or fortune tellers. If you need someone to give you perspective and others who you trust don't have the time... i say go for it.

In my own training before i declined the career as legitimate for me, i met many dysfunctional therapists. I had to be supervised in the early stages, so I met several.

Please know they have their own personality problems. Though required to go through therapy when in school, their problems may not get resolved. I was so disgusted with what i heard behind closed doors and also my experience with being taken advantage of in my vulnerable states... i chose to forfeit the career path.

Remember, there is very little science behind "mental illness" diagnosis. Realize the DSM (diagnostic book) is written by volumes of opinions of people who see something in others they deem as a mental illness.  There is no way to measure emotion etc. Also, medications for things that can be resolved without it are now very common.

I say try a 12 step group, a very wise friend and a faith community. Save your money and your sanity. You alone know what's best for you.. you just have to figure it out, no one else can do that for you.

I wish you the best.

[JustKathy]

Thank you for the advice, tragedy. I'm so sorry that you had a therapist cross boundaries and cause you further trauma. That's horrible coming from someone who you should have been able to trust.

[daughter]

I've seen four different therapists in my life, each for a period during four different decades, each for different "trigger" episodes, all with very similar observations and advice. All four were competent and empathetic, but each providing Wise observations I'd wouldn't have found on my own.

In my late 20s, slowly exiting from "starter marriage", still heartbroken, back in my home city, very uncertain about my future prospects, I went talk-therapist treating close friend. Thought my trigger-issue was "post-separation grief".  Therapist quickly zeroed in on "no it's your npd mother, yikes".  Very useful therapy, but still too FOG'ed to do recommended NC.

Two decades later, married, kids, 1st NC, horrific horrific Big Bad Behavior of my parents, they tell me to "die".  (I'm "dead" to them for my trivial disobedience.). I "agree", decide to completely disengage, and see 3rd therapist.  For four months, I tell my life-stories, ask "is these normal parents", to be told by now psychiatrist , over and over: "NOPE, you need to terminate contact, because they're malevolent npd personalities!!"  And no, I'm not clinically depressed, but seen as rather stoic survivor of much emotional abuse.

After 4 months, I still reengage, stop therapy nonetheless, thinking my kids need "extended family experience", still thinking I can salvage situation by Medium Chill and Grey Rock. My parents' bad behavior however worsens with every passing year, slipping further into familiar disdain, intentional discord, and disrespectful mannerisms.  And about a decade in, yet another Big Bad Behavior episode occurs, but different, so  finally DH asks: can we please just stop FOO npd-circus??  Back I go, to now 4th therapist, recommended by another friend who knows situation. Therapist notes my seemingly high-functioning parents are nonetheless amongst worst parents she's encountered in decades of practice, and advises absolute resolute NC hereon.  Compels me to "put on big girl pants". 

And here I am, a decade of NC, very content with that long overdue decision, not seeing a therapist. (I'd been doing monthly check-in appts w/4th therapist for several years, until Covid lockdown, because I've other stressors too.)

I was lucky, to find four supportive therapists who challenged my "dutiful daughter" good girl demeanor, who forced me to comprehend FOG isn't basis of meaningful relations, and that no adult-daughter "owes" her parents anything, no matter how brainwashed and parentified. 

There are incompetent therapists, like all professions, and we need to always be educated consumers of services rendered. "Life-coaching" is unregulated field of services, with no minimum threshold competency. What you describe makes me leery.  Seems "hard sell" marketing of her particular specific regiment. This site is similar to online group therapy by likeminded individuals often receiving professional therapy elsewhere. I'd distrust someone who says stuff you noted.

Firmly believe in "vote with your feet", meaning select people that you trust and act competently, and have basic credentials of BA or MA in counseling, clinical psychology, etc.

[JustKathy]

Daughter, thank you so much much for sharing your experiences. I also had a very good therapist who encouraged NC. I lost her when I moved to another state but took a break from therapy at that point anyway because I was comfortable with where I was at. I was pretty much just coasting along at that point, NC, and detached from the drama of the FOO. Now there are new issues with the NC siblings so it's time to resume therapy again.

I was also very leery of some of the things that woman said to me. She also told me to stay away from therapists because they can end up making you worse. That did happen to me in a few cases, but I think I can now find a good match through Psychology Today or similar sites. I don't like the approach of, "Okay, bad things happened to you but let's just forget about that and move on." No. That's not possible. While it does help to talk to someone who really understands the narcissistic family structure, anyone who claims they can "cure" you is full of it.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who are trying to profit off of us. I found a licensed therapist who has some excellent YouTube videos, but when I went to his site and signed up for his newsletter I started getting spammed with emails for Zoom counseling, paid support groups, and classes on recovery. He's licensed in my state so it's legal, but just seemed so sleazy. So the lesson here is to be wary of these high-profile specialists, even if they're licensed psychologists.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I'm dumbfounded that this person has made a career of understanding narcissistic parental dynamics, and then turns around and tells you to forget about it and move on. Intellectual understanding helps me a lot, but it's certainly not sufficient. In fact I've been burned by paying attention to the brain part at the expense of my emotions a time or twelve...

And staying away from therapy because of some bad ones is like saying don't get married because some husbands are abusive. Let's get the skills to tell the difference and then trust our observations! That's valuable in any relationship, therapeutic or not.

[JustKathy]

I'm dumbfounded that this person has made a career of understanding narcissistic parental dynamics, and then turns around and tells you to forget about it and move on.

Yeah, I think the exact words she said were "We have to get your mother out of your head." That can't be done. Full stop. She also told me I had C-PTSD, which is correct, but that diagnosis should come from a psychiatrist, not a life coach.

I could have just Googled this, but I'm figuring out on my own here that a therapist's role is to help a person through their mental health struggles and provide emotional support, where a life coach's role is to guide you toward being your most fabulous self. I guess the latter is a great choice for someone wanting a career change, but not so much for someone who needs help with their anxiety and depression. There are several high-profile YouTubers and authors with extensive knowledge of narcissism, and that knowledge is certainly validating to someone who is still trying to figure out what's wrong with their FOO, but it ends there. They aren't qualified (and probably not legally allowed) to treat someone's anxiety or PTSD, so their approach is to give you pep talks or whatever will lift you up and guide you toward a better future. But that won't help with the physical symptoms.

Thanks again, everyone, for your input. I could have just researched all of this online but talking it out with other people who have been there was what I really needed. You guys are the best.

[mary_poppins]

JustKathy-really glad you asked this.

Here's my experience: if some coach tells you that therapists are not good and you should stick with coaching run! That's a red flag. Not sure you know Crappy Childhood Fairy aka Anna Runkle. She is a coach for victims of childhood abuse. She talks so much in her videos about therapy and how bad it is and you should avoid it if you wanna heal. I've researched about her and she's definitely off. Not good, period. Just because she had few bad therapists it doesn't mean all therapists are bad.
That Youtuber might have been good for general advice for you but for healing..not sure. I have an issue with coaches in general who claim that they are better than therapists.

My experience with coaches is not good. Yes, they look to the future but we, adult children of PDs are NOT living in the future. We are in the past, every single day due to our complex trauma. It's normal and it's OK. We need someone to help us heal the addiction to the past, the addiction to the abusive person who didn't let us individuate.

One coach I had gave me general advice about my problems (I hired her for my business and emotional problems)-advice I could have gotten from this forum or blogs on the subject. Yes, she helped me stay accountable but that was not extremely helpful either. My core issue regarding my business and earning in general is my trauma. I need to heal said trauma to feel confident enough to earn a GOOD living (not just to survive 'cause all I did in life is to survive financially).

The therapists I had were all helpful. One took 4-ish years to help me quit my toxic job and dare to apply to jobs I like and enjoy. That was the biggest breakthrough. Another therapist helped me set boundaries with NM and back then I tried hard to maintain 'low contact' with her. Another therapist was so awesome and understood narcissistic abuse really well, she helped me visualise and vocalise my pain BUT she was too expensive and I had to end it with her.

Last year I tried again therapy for narcissistic abuse but I only had one session. It was good. The therapist was appointed to me by Dr. Judy Rosenberg from www.psychologicalhealingcenter.com. The team has affordable therapists you can choose that teach you the 'mind map' method for healing trauma from PD/NPD parents with a focus on mothers. My goal is to save enough money to start coaching with a therapist from Judy's team. They have good reviews and their youtube videos are spot on. I also read her book and understood her method for healing. I totally recommend her work.

Good therapists are like good men/women-they are hard to find and you need to 'date' some jerks before finding the 'one'.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you, JustKathy to find whatever you are looking for-be it a narcissistic abuse recovery coach or therapist. Go with your intuition, it will not let you down.

[JustKathy]

Yes, they look to the future but we, adult children of PDs are NOT living in the future. We are in the past, every single day due to our complex trauma. It's normal and it's OK.

Thank you so much, Mary Poppins. Yes, absolutely, we are in the past every single day. I knew to walk away from this woman as soon as she said that she could "get my mother out of my head." No one in my family is ever leaving my head. It wasn't just my Nmother, but also my enabling father and two PD siblings who still continue to hurt me.

I try to look at PTSD like this. Imagine it being a war veteran who has PTSD because he saw innocent civilians being brutally murdered. Imagine someone who has PTSD because they saw a child run over by a car. Can those people get those images out of their heads? Of course not. Not ever. Our trauma may not have come from something visual, but it's still trauma. I think some of these coaches are acting on the misguided belief that psychological trauma is somehow different and can be erased. They're wrong.

Thank you SO much for the link to Psychology Healing Center. I had never heard of them but they're located very close to me so I may give them a call. Sounds like a perfect place to find a good therapist, especially if their emphasis is on mothers.

[pianissimo]

I tried online therapy once, but, it didn't work out. Then, I couldn't afford it. But, I checked online resources a lot. In my case, I now realize that, I could use therapy to process emotions, understand what is going on, and how to respond...etc.  When something that happened bothers me, that's because I'm not able to process it. This is the reason I feel like talking about it. At that moment, I need help to understand what happened,  how I feel about it, why I feel that way (validation), and how to address my feelings through actions. So, any therapist that would pass judgement about people in the story would annoy me tremendously, because, in the end, it really doesn't matter who did wrong. Even if I'm the one who is at fault, if what happened is bugging me, it's because I have difficulty processing it. So, to me, this is what therapy would be about.

[1footouttadefog]

I think it's important to have a well equipted toolbox, not just a big hammer or a set of sockets.

We need different types of support to heal.  No just one type or a single person.

This forum is one important tool but should not be all.  Neither should a therapist or a friend or spouse be all.

Some people can disengage from life and start a whole new chapter others cannot.  We are not all the same. 

I am fortunate in that I can usually over time remove the pain related to memories for the most part then the memories become merely data or mildly emotional like none traumatic memories usually are.

I understand this is not always easy for myself or others.  I think having a forum like this where you can come and be understood is very helpful.  It's what we are here for so it's not over sharing or taxing on each other. 

It could take years to build that in a IRL relationship.  I therefore keep a foot in this pond. 

I hope you find a therapist that is a good match.  Also find social friends and a church, hobby group or other social outlets yet avoid oversharing there.  Touch bases with previous friends and family that are healthy to interact with.

I agree with the book Author in as much as this forum should not be all there is either. 

You might never forget but over time and with healing the pain can be reduced and new memories and joy can help over shadow the past. 

Build your support tool box, a well rounded one.