Certainty vs. honesty

[baffledhuman]

Hello, all.

I'm having a real struggle with my dBPDw (d in that a therapist has told her she likely has BPD traits).

We started couples therapy last night after many months of deteriorating relations. During our first session, the therapist (who is the one who has id'd BPD traits in my wife) asked me for an example of behavior that I'm uncomfortable with because I feel "surveilled" (to put it succinctly).

I mentioned that last summer, during a phone conversation while I was away on a long absence of several months, my wife made a brief comment about an e-book of sex stories she saw that I had bought on Amazon. She didn't dwell on it, but to my ears, the way it was brought up was shaming; at any rate, I was embarrassed and yes, annoyed that she even saw it (our accounts are "shared" or whatever). I never even think to check her email, accounts, location, etc., even though she has set up all those things so that I/we could.

My wife immediately became angry and started spiraling. First, she insisted she cannot see my purchases on our shared account (she can). Next, she insisted no such call had happened and demanded details.

Although not thrilled to air my kinks in front of a new therapist, I figured, honesty is best. I looked up the title, as she insisted I do, and when I had purchased the book.

She then insisted that (literally) it was "not possible" that she could have seen the book on my account and that I was confusing it with an episode (unremembered by me) from five years ago, in which she "confronted" me about another book of sex stories involving the same (legal, consensual) kink.

I restated that I did have the memory and I did feel somewhat shamed, but of course I could not guarantee that my memory is perfectly infallible. To this, my wife seemed to think she had scored a point, since she was absolutely certain that no such conversation had taken place. Certain. In her own words, "not possible" that this could have happened, and anyway, she would never do such a thing.

I feel the therapist saw this for what it was. But I was frustrated because to me, I was the person with a pretty specific memory, but was honest enough to say it's possible I "made it up" or whatever other explanation, but my BPD spouse's utter certainty seemed to win the day. One reason I believe this: My wife spoke to her other therapist today, then approached me to say, "I don't remember it that way. But I want you to know that I would never do that to you."

Well, OK. Isn't that saying, more or less, "Your memory is wrong, your feelings are invalid, accept my version"? I will say that this, more than anything else, is the major complaint I have in our marriage: I feel that almost all of the time, I am told that my memory is flawed, or explained to why my feelings are not really valid, etc.

I think this is gaslighting, frankly. But I'm not sure the professionals see it that way. It leaves me wondering whether "honesty is the best policy" for me. In other words, am I better off doing what she is doing, and insisting that my memory is correct? I don't honestly think I can do that; it's not in my nature; nothing, it seems to me, is absolutely certain.

BELOW is (maybe) ANCILLARY information about her reaction last night and this morning. I'm mostly interested in an answer to the question above, but if anyone feels like reading and responding to the below also, I'd be grateful.

Last night at 11 she came to my room (I have been exiled to another bedroom for many years) and tossed her paperback copy of "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me," at me. She said she had checked, and indeed she could see my Amazon purchases, so she of course looked and, "You didn't need to buy that e-book, here's mine."

This turned into a two and a half hour session during which she raged at me to disconnect all aspects of our life, including finances and taxes, and informed me that I just want to "fuck who I want to fuck" but that I would find that all women will want to keep track of me, especially since I am an irredeemable "cheater" (our current woes began with my infidelity, but it's far more complicated than I want to go into here). She then alternately threw herself on my bed, crying and screaming, and I did my best to soothe her. When she turned hard again and told me, "I'm just really angry," I said I understand and then (mistake, I'm sure) that I also was angry. This sent her into orbit. I finally excused myself at 1 a.m. to go for a walk because I felt my own anger building.

When I returned at 2 a.m., she had left a note saying she wanted to "re-marry" me and that she would "get over" everything, alone those lines. I did not respond.

This morning, she started in on a) the sex book she could not possibly have known about and b) the BPD book. I tried to reassure her that I only ordered the BPD book after she told me she'd been diagnosed, that I wanted to learn more (and I did not say, but I also am trying to learn strategies to deal with her outbursts and what I see as gaslighting, etc.). Shortly thereafter, she pronounced herself "crazy ... psychotic ... cold ... borderline" and one other thing that I can't recall.

Again, I tried to reassure her, but she just kept flinging herself across my lap, crying. Then she would sit up and begin relitigating the whole sex book episode, though I'd told her I'd said all I had to say about it and it felt like something else was going on.

She got worse and worse and finally I left for my run, an hour and a half late.

[square]

So you have described some pretty standard BPD things there, yeah. My H appears to be PPD (paranoid) with BPD traits, so I can relate to the BPD stuff pretty well.

Yes, the need to absolutely convince you that you are wring and they didn't do anything wrong, very standard. And I actually have a thread called simething like How Do They Win the Framing War in Commin Behaviors that discusses that whole thing about them being 100000% certain vs you allowing for the possibility of being wrong.

I went to couples counselling with my H. It was a disaster. I would very gently and diplomatically bring up something that bothered me, and it was war. After the session we'd go iut to the car and he'd just yell at me. He could not handle it. Even worse that there was a witness to me saying there was something wrong. We quit. We were worse off for it. I think there are few cluster Bs that can take anything positive from couples therapy.

I have the book you mention but I ordered it on my mom's account and read it at her house. I understand perfectly why you got it but honestly I think the one thing I got really right was that I never even hinted to my H that I thought he might have a PD. If H was ever diagnosed with traits, I wouldn't talk about it, ask about it, or anything.

If they could handle being told they have a socially repugnant mental illness, they could handle other things as well, like "I don't appreciate being blamed for your mistakes" or "you literally said the opposite two minutes ago." They can't. Leave it to her therapist, that's my advice.

So yeah, that's gaslighting. It's a fight to the death because they can't handle being wrong or looking bad. If you continue counselling I advise stepping back from talking about your complaints. Try to just explore strategies for future conflicts, without details on those conflicts. Like see if you guys can agree to take a break if things get heated, or agree no name calling etc. And make it mutual, not YOU stop name calling but WE, not YOU stop fighting but WE take a break, can we agree to try that?

And refuse to get into details ever. Nope. Try to avoid accusations at all. Just focus on general positive strategies for both of you. If you get cornered accidentally, just say the details aren't important, you're just looking to move forward.

[escapingman]

I feel for your, that is horrible. I can so relate as my uNPD/BPDw behaves exactly the same. Without going into your story too much, I have a couple of advice that has helped me enormously. Make sure you get one credit card, with online statements only, that she can't access. Then do any purchases you don't want her to see on it. Then buy a subscription for an audiobook service, you can listen to as many books you like without having any physical evidence (just make sure she has no access to your laptop or phone where you listen from). I have probably listen to at least 10 books the last couple of months and my eyes are wideopen.

Good luck.

[baffledhuman]

Thank you, square and escapingman.

I'm exhausted. We are now into Day Three of the endless battle over my Great Crime of having a memory that she does not. I know it's a mistake, but I am a process-y person (I love therapy, for example), and I continue to foolishly try to point out distinctions that are much, much too subtle for her to grasp.

For a quarter century, I've noted her seeming difficulty in addressing what I'll call "the larger issue." Instead, she tends to grab onto one small, and to me, not that significant, detail, then absolutely go bulldog on that minor matter, using it to "prosecute" me and badger me into accepting her version of reality. Often, even if I don't accept it, I will capitulate, in an effort to stop the cycle.

But I know of late I'm engaging way too much in JADE, and I honestly don't know what to do about it. More and more, I feel like I'm "crazy," and I've started to question what were once pretty solid understandings of my reality. I honestly believe that for her, if I would simply accept her beliefs, opinions, explanations why my feelings are not warranted, fears and so on, she would be satisfied ... and I would become a zombie.

[baffledhuman]

Incidentally, I began learning about BPD several weeks ago after my spouse informed me, unsolicited, that a therapist had said she likely had BPD traits, at minimum.

This morning, the moment she saw me, she began explaining that she had consulted with the therapist (who is also doing our couples counseling), who assured my wife that she had never said such a thing and that no, my wife has no BPD traits.

So. Not sure what to do with that. I suppose my wife is telling the truth ... why does it feel like more gaslighting, i.e. "You should not be even thinking about BPD and it's a grave insult that you read a book etc. when I now have been given a clean bill of health."

[1footouttadefog]

Borderlines and narcs often operate on a feelings as fact basis. 

They rearrange the facts to fit how they feel.  How they feel is the final truth.

A normal person can recognize their feelings may be influenced by past events or memories and experiences and while they are at the for front and real in the moment they don't all fit what may be going on in reality.

For example I might feel terribly rejected when a rlfriend tells me we need to cancel something or postpone it.  On the logical side of things I know and trust the friend who is not abusive towards me and don't react based on my feelings.  These feelings are simply embedded in me and I treat it like walking with an annoying little  stone in your shoe until you can safely rest what you are carrying in your arms to sort it out.

BPDs and other cluster B will protect the inner person the the feelings of shame guilt and inadequacy until the end.

Her acts of denying your emotions is dehumanizing you.  This is easy for someone who feels no empathy because they never connect with the pain of others even though there own is what the universe spins around.

Gaslighting, yes, and invalidation as well. 

It sounds like she is incapable of forgiving you and that she feels she has the moral high ground in the relationship.

I know that there was more to my vows than just the sex thing.  My spouse has broken them all even if he has not cheated.  Additionally he is addicted to porn and denied me a proper sex life and emotional intimacy  He probably thinks he is a moral husband while he sits and watches TV all day while I do EVERYTHING. ( Actually I feel the denial of sex is as much a deal breaker as cheating)

In some cases it's kinder to let someone try again than to drag things out in a no win situation.  I am only here still because my pdh is now aged disabled and has dementia. 

Otherwise I would set him free and quit making his life miserable as he would periodically tell me it was when he wanted to run back to his narc mother.

I hope you find the best path forward.

[square]

Oh, I love process. Logic. Rationality. The truth and all its implications.

I wouldn't say it's a mistake. You just thought you were on Earth but in fact it's Mars. Gravity is a bit different, the day just a tad longer, atmospheric pressure about nil. So now you begin the process of adjusting.

Sometimes PDs have a "moment of clarity." It seems to us like something has finally unlocked and things can get better. I can't say that it's never happened... but if it has, it's rare.

My former boss, uNPD, who was a friend and made me a golden child of his company, eventually came to a crisis and confessed his fears there was something wrong with him. I thought it was a turning point. I tried to gently tell him some things. It wounded him further. Two days later he had a new brick wall up, to me and everyone else. He became worse. He hoped I would help him put the pieces back together for him but I broke them worse.

My H has told me three times he thought he was NPD. He isn't NPD, but that one is the only PD he knows of. I told him he wasn't. Hey, it's the truth. And no point in telling him what I thought he was. He can trust me more now. And even if I didn't care if he trusted me, there is nothing else I could do that wouldn't break it any further.

Your wife feels broken. That's what BPD is. She is clinging to life by her fingernails. I'm not trying to be all sympathetic to her or any other BPD that has hurt others to save themselves. It's just a fact.

To hear, yeah, you are broken. No. She can't handle it. Everything she has ever done has been an attempt to put herself back together - and it was all wrong and doomed to failure - but whether you care about her or not, she cannot take being told she is broken and her attempts to hold herself together are nothing but lies and fantasy.

She told you something that terrified her. She hoped she would hear that it was all okay. She processed it. Now she feels exposed, judged, like the world is against her. This is just how it is, a fact, but nothing to make you capitulate to her.

She won't see the larger picture and will tear into a little tidbit like a rat terrier because that's how she can win the game. She'll lose on the bigger picture.

Do NOT capitulate. You're right, you'll become a zombie. You are a whole person and your perceptions are valid.

Capitulating is losing the game. What you want to do is stop playing. Keep your perceptions away from her. (Share them with safe people, including us). She is a Martian. Don't forget it.

You don't share with her anymore. You "handle" her. It's a lonely place byt better than going crazy.

[1footouttadefog]

What square describes is like the process of emotional disengagement I had to go through.

I at some point realized my pdh is simply not capable of certain interactions and I should expecting it of him and triggering him with the expectations that set him up to fail.

[baffledhuman]

Do NOT capitulate. You're right, you'll become a zombie. You are a whole person and your perceptions are valid.

Capitulating is losing the game. What you want to do is stop playing. Keep your perceptions away from her. (Share them with safe people, including us). She is a Martian. Don't forget it.

You don't share with her anymore. You "handle" her. It's a lonely place byt better than going crazy.

So much good sense in everything you write, square. Truly. I've looked at a number of your posts and I appreciate your articulation and intelligence.

I am, I know, quite foolishly still playing the game on her field. It's very hard for me, because I want to be the "good guy." In addition, and I'm embarrassed to say this, if I do not play her game or capitulate or concede or whatever, she will withhold sex. She ALWAYS withholds affection, which is something I've hungered for during our entire marriage, but which she flatly says, she "can't do."

But sex withholding ... it's tough. In my opinion, her "love" for me is highly conditional: If I'm "performing" correctly, she can be pretty nice. If I am not, all bets are off, and during our late difficulties, sex has become a tool, or rather, withholding sex has. The thing is, I end up feeling like I'm groveling, a needy child, when I try to "perform" specifically so she will "grant" me sex on occasion.

I'm also still foolishly holding out hope for the therapy, but our first session was, to my eye, just insane. And her behavior was especially nuts afterward. So I don't know. She plays the "waif" so well when she needs to, and I foolishly fall for it, every time.

[escapingman]

This subject baffled, it's huge......

Once in the very beginning of my relationship with my uNPD/BPDw (then girlfriend) when we were having one of our deep discussions (her information gathering) and I told her about a girl I had been having sex with before I met her. She went ballistic and threatened to split up with me and I had to beg for forgiveness for weeks, this despite my so called cheating on her was before I had even met her. This was during the love bombing phase and I was blind and did not see the red flag. I should have.

Much later when we had bought our first house and she started giving me tasks (which by the way was fine as we needed to do the house up) she started talking about giving me sex after completing each task. I thought it was a bit funny when she did so but have now later realised, she actually mean it.

You must disengage in all drama, I still trip up, but to not participate is the only way to survive. What makes it impossible for me is that she is triangulating our children, and when they are part of the drama things go bad.

Good luck, and do all you can to master the MC and GR skillsets.

[downwiththefog]

Thanks for the contributions to this thread.
Many bells rang for me.
Unfortunately honesty doesn't pay and hiding web interactions, purchases, PD books is essential.
The inability to handle criticism, including things brought up during couple therapy, makes being honest impossible.
I eventually served divorce papers to my uBPDw only to later cancel them as she agreed to couple therapy and for the sake of children and the family unit.
After a love bombing phase, I am now being served total affection and sex withdrawal.
And constant guilt trips on how on Earth I could serve her divorce papers rather than discuss divorce with her.
Luckily, my own therapist and readings, including this forum, have taught me how to disengage.
Life and health do not last forever, though, and I often wonder if should make another attempt to flee and fly free.

[escapingman]

edownwiththefog, thanks for sharing your story. I have just filed for divorce and my uBPD/NPDw is lovebombing me and tries to get me to cancel the divorce. I am pretty sure that as soon as I would cancel the divorce the abuse would come back within weeks/months and I would also be punished in the same way as you described. What is holding you back from filing again? Be strong and get out.