Here we go...big convo coming

[samtosha]

Hey, all! Though I haven't been commenting much, I've been reading lots of your posts and finding your experiences and wisdom so helpful. I have an elderly uNPDm (my total jackass uNPDf died 2 years ago) who is a lot like many of yours - critical, complaining, arrogant, superior, negative, etc. I have been VVVVVLC for the past few years. It's been nice! She complains whenever I do contact her (every few months just to make sure she's alive...note that she doesn't contact ME, ever) that she wants to see me more often. More than that, she wants me to want to see HER, which is why she doesn't take the initiative like a normal person.

Of course, when I do see her, I'm stressed out beforehand, the time with her is spent being grey rock-ish and "sullen" because I'm either avoiding any subjects she might have a negative opinion about (like, everything except the weather, basically) or I'm hurt by some shitty comment she made but trying not to give her the satisfaction of reacting, or drained by her constant complaining and misery, and it takes a few days after to recover emotionally. It really robs one's life of joy, dealing with these people.

Here's the situation. My GC brother flying monkeyed me last week - "mom wants to see you - alone, without your DH".  When I asked him why, he told me this:  he has been going through a tough time and he - oddly - confided in uNPDm about it and happened to confess that he was feeling a bit suicidal at times. Her reaction? OH NO, I better fix things with Samtosha in case she's the only kid I have left! Yup. She managed to make my brother's serious depressive episode all about herself (he's better now, btw).

The other thing bro told me is that she believes I "always" conform myself to "whatever man I'm with" and so obviously it's my new-ish DH's fault that I'm "not interested in her life" anymore. Couldn't be anything to do with her! She's perfect!

So...I considered my options. I know - from reading here and elsewhere - that trying to express how we feel to NPDs is useless and destructive - I honestly tried for many years and they just ignored it and did whatever they wanted. A few years ago I set some boundaries for myself. I didn't announce that I was no longer tolerating criticism, I just don't make myself available for it to the extent possible. The other thing is the CONSTANT complaining without any changes ever being made -something I know many of you have experienced too. That has been going on for decades. She doesn't want any advice or help or suggestions - especially from me, pointless little inferior always-wrong person that I am - just an emotional garbage dump. Again, not having it. And third is - I am not doing any eldercare, period. I will *find* help for her if she needs it, but it's not gonna be me. All three of these add up to - yeah, I'm not really going to be seeing her.

Has it been unfair of me not to spell it out? I'm not sure, but I really didn't want to have that conversation. And I'm pretty sure it's going to go badly! She's not all there cognitively, for one thing. I also think SHE thinks it's going to involve her giving some big lecture about how I let men rule my life (so insulting!) and how she has NEEDS etc. I think the only thing I can do is say, basically, "Mom, all I did was set some boundaries," and explain what they are, in very simple terms (like, "I'm not available to listen to complaining when nothing ever changes."). Hopefully, I can manage this without JADEing all over the place but I can tell you I AM STRESSED OUT about this. I was hoping to avoid this particular confrontation!

I guess where I'm landing is that it might be a good thing to do to articulate my boundaries once and let whatever happens happen? As it is, she's totally mystified ("what could I possibly have done wrong??") and making up weird, offensive stories. Then at least it won't be hanging over my head anymore (or keeping me up at night having the argument in my head). Argh! What do you think?

[FromTheSwamp]

Honestly, I wouldn't do anything here.  I have a policy of not responding to Not-Questions like guilt trips, and definitely not responding to messages sent through other parties.  If Mom wants to talk to me, she can pick up the phone and use her words. 

Added:  I have also trained myself to not respond to subtext.  I respond to actual questions, and if she asks me for help (not hinting around!) I respond to that, and help if I can if it's appropriate.  She prefers to hint around, since I'm supposed to know what she needs without her saying it, so this cuts down on the drama substantially for me. 

[SunnyMeadow]

I agree with FromTheSwamp, I wouldn't do anything. It sounds like you have a good handle on the games she plays and know you need to avoid her.

And mom wants to see you alone, without DH?? That's a big NO. How rude of these people. My mom does the same. She's made comments that my sibling's spouse brainwashed sib and my dh talks me into things too.

My mother wanted me spell out any problem I had with her after an argument. She wanted it emailed. She'd take that email and dissect it, pull each sentence apart with her denials and reversals turning the whole mess into my doing. So yes, I think that conversation would go badly. They don't take kindly to boundaries so spelling it out may not go too well. I mean if you want to have that conversation for your own peace of mind, then do it but be prepared for it to blow up.

he was feeling a bit suicidal at times. Her reaction? OH NO, I better fix things with Samtosha in case she's the only kid I have left! Yup. She managed to make my brother's serious depressive episode all about herself (he's better now, btw).

This part seriously made me a little sick to my stomach. There is a lot of things I could say about her regarding this but I won't. I'm very happy your brother isn't feeling suicidal now.

As for elder care, stay far, far away from any of that. The stress I've been under dealing with two very sick, completely oblivious elderly parents is awful. They never made any plan for aging care. They just sat in their thrones (recliners) waiting for me to do it all apparently. So now I'm doing it all. They are going into an assisted living place and then when their money runs out....  That's what you get when you don't save or plan for anything beyond next week. So helping her to get into a facility somewhere I can see, but nothing more like you said.

I don't think I'd set myself up for a big convo with her. Not worth it, won't accomplish anything and won't change anything. At all costs, protect your own well being and it sounds like that doesn't include much interaction with her.

This is tough stuff to go through samtosha! I should have worried about myself, my husband and my children more instead of her throughout the years. I really regret giving her so much space in my life and my brain. Definitely good you're putting a lot of thought into this. I didn't but sure wish I would have been smart like you.

[samtosha]

I agree with all of this, FromTheSwamp and SunnyMeadow—it's emotional blackmail and I hate getting hooked by it. My bro is coming to visit with his kids next week and my chance to see him will be with her as well. I had decided to put off any big meeting with her until after that - and I'm going to wait and see and maybe just decide I'm not doing it.

Sunny, I'm so sorry you had that reaction. It is truly sickening and unbelievable, even for a narc.  My poor brother has been having a bad time and she apparently got "triggered" (his words). He's a lot more sympathetic to her nonsense than I am.

I totally relate on the lack of preparedness for ageing. I can see that trainwreck coming a mile away. As far as giving your NPDm too much - it's so hard to resist the FOG. I think we all do the best we can and hopefully gain some wisdom along the way. I'm still finding all of this very, very challenging.

Thank you so much for your support!

[Sneezy]

I have not had much success with stating my boundaries.  People tend to hear what they want to hear, and explanations of what your boundaries are rarely seem to get through to people who don't want to abide by them.  That said, there are some times where it helps to explicitly state your boundaries.  For example, if you are changing a boundary.  I used to take my mom grocery shopping a couple times a month.  Due to a shoulder injury, I can't lift and carry groceries up to her apartment, and so I had to explicitly change that boundary.  Mom continues to badger me to take her grocery shopping and I continue to remind her that the boundary has changed and I can no longer take her shopping.

Unfortunately, it just gets more difficult as aging takes its toll.  You have set a boundary that says you will help find care, but you will not provide care.  Please stick to that one.  Do not move in with your mom or (God forbid) allow her to move in with you.  It can be very difficult to say no to elderly parents, but for your own sanity, you have to stick to this boundary.  I have told my mom over and over that I can not provide hands-on care as I am not strong enough to lift her.  She fell last year and my first instinct was to lift her back up.  But I stuck to my boundary.  It was so hard, but Mom stayed on the ground for 20 minutes (we kept her warm and as comfortable as possible) until an ambulance arrived and the paramedic could get her up.  I felt guilty, like I was the worst daughter ever for not attempting to get my mom up.  But it was a boundary I had to stick to. 

Keep your boundaries up - you can do it!  Whenever I pull up to my mom's apartment to pick her up, I repeat my mantra several times - "boundaries up and medium chill on!"

[Liketheducks]

Anytime my family asks to see me without DH.....I KNOW some shady crap is about to go down.   Good for you for holding your boundaries.  You own them.   She would likely only bulldoze through them if they don't suit her.   

Back when I lost my mind and thought it would be a brilliant idea to have mom move in with us.....as there were no savings for elder care there too......day 2 she started a campaign to convince everyone that the DH of mine would renovated our house to provide a nice space.....was verbally abusing me.   He was not.   She was just jealous of the relationship we had.     I should have known then how damaging it would be to have her with us.   It took 4 years and untold drama.    Funnily enough, she's figured out how to manage on her own just fine.   I'm still the baddie.....as I'm not bankrolling her.....but I can own being a baddie.....and love my peace.   

Carry on.   You've got this!

[moglow]

For what it's worth: Unless she says it to you/asks to see you in her prescribed special circumstances, it doesn't exist and not your stuff. Her opinion? Also not your stuff. She's trying to triangulate, possibly even full on divide and conquer.

Your brother can only be a flying monkey if he allows. By all means, offer him the support and compassion he needs and maintain your relationship with him - while you encourage him to stop sharing his [and your!] personals with her AND refuse to be her messenger going forward.

She's putting him in a place he doesn't need to be, and it likely only provides deniability at her whim. She can paint him to be the bad guy, you're left feeling defensive and off kilter and situation all jacked up in one fell swoop.

Try to limit any input beyond answering direct questions, and carefully vet the information you provide. Every random question doesn't require an answer, and you don't have to explain anything if you choose. You can always say you'll need to get back to her if there's something that you simply don't have an answer for or need to think it through. I think mine liked to catch me off guard so I'd pop off and that way she had something to hold over my head later. She also full on made crap up that I knew for damn sure I'd never said, but I did learn to watch myself.

[samtosha]

Sneezy and LikeTheDucks, you are spot on. I was manipulated by my sympathy for my bro and feeling bad for everyone in that scenario. Like, I know uNPDm is lonely, and I do feel for her. It's tough! And I know it's her own fault she has no friends and has alienated her family, and it's not my problem to solve, so I guess the FOG just got hold of me.

And backstory on brother is that he's got a serious drinking problem and doesn't cope well with life and had a bad breakup a couple months ago that was pretty devastating, though he's pulling himself out of it.  And he hasn't always been so nice to me and tends to get a little GC-ish, which I recognize is his way of coping with our utterly toxic family structure, but I still don't like it.

Since I was guilted into agreeing to the meetup,  I started to think it might be OK to just do this thing. I agree it's super-duper not going to go well though. As far as eldercare, I'm totally strong on that boundary. I saw the writing on the wall with my parents maybe 4 years ago and had a conversation with mom where I laid out the boundary about not being available to provide elder care myself - and I was more enmeshed at that time and offered to do a lot of other things to help them out. She ignored that boundary until F got very ill and I had to actually enforce it, though I did find lots of other resources for her that she totally, inexplicably refused to use. Of course, they had no plans, no money - I think she had assumed I was going to do everything for them.  I will no doubt have to state that same boundary again since she will have conveniently forgotten I ever said anything - or, more likely, she assumes I'll do it for her because she's the queen. 

[samtosha]

Moglow - I should not have gotten myself into this position, you're so right about that. I can't remember the last time I had a one-on-one in-person conversation with uNPDm - maybe 10 years ago?

it's weird because uNPDm treats bro so differently - he's the GC for sure - and he allows her to get away with so much emotional manipulation (whining, crying, self-pity, and worse) and he considers her to be, like, fragile and pitiful. She has never once cried in front of me, but apparently does it every time she talks to him. I guess she won't allow herself to be vulnerable to me, her "inferior". That gives him a totally different perspective - but also he doesn't give much credit to my perspective, which is frustrating. I had mostly decided not to talk about her with him anymore because he can get a little gaslight-y. This whole scenario totally blindsided me.

[FromTheSwamp]

My sibling and I have compared notes and have observed that our mom uses different tactics on us. She must feel that crying is more likely to work on me, because she almost never uses tears on my sibling.  It's mostly different versions of her poor pitiful me act, because that's been her go-to as she's got older. 

So I have to wonder if your mother is doing something similar - she has observed that the emotional manipulation works better on your brother so she has ramped that up with him. 

It's so helpful that my sibling and I can share our perspectives, and I'm sorry to hear that your brother isn't great in that regard.  I can understand why you are hesitant to trust him with much. 

[moglow]

Samtosha, it's one learning experience after another, isn't it? What I said wasn't meant as a reflection on y'all, more of an observation from my own edge of the cliff. My brothers will share things with me [now] just to keep me in the loop, not as an expectation that I act on it. More of a "head's up she's circling your way" if you will.

Years ago it wasn't that way - it was more a recitation of what I was supposed to do, what she said I need to do, and way too many times I jumped when she said to. She'd use those things against us, pitting us against each other or have meltdowns that I was somehow to have known what was needed. It all really fell apart when we stopped, and I'm sure she doesn't see that. We all started stepping back and refusing to accept responsibility for things that weren't ours. LONG overdue.

The manipulations are too familiar as well - she'll melt down and blister me then play all "I don't know why she's so mad at me" to whichever brother she talks to. Two of them see right through her and will call her on it, the third just goes along to get along. He's not local, doesn't see what she does and is easily played as the "favorite."

Remember always  - there are a shitton of elder care options out there, lots of agencies and resources are there for just that purpose. I'm with you, moving in or moving her in is not on any table where I'm seated. Not going to happen, the effects of that wouldn't be kind for either of us and I just refuse. She can stay in her house as long as that's safe and we'll help find whatever help she needs from there.

So go to this "visit," listen, make notes if you need to follow up on anything, but do what you can to stay detached from her and her dramatics. Be there with your brother and don't hesitate to compare notes after, support each other where you can.

[samtosha]

FromTheSwamp, I think that's exactly what's going on. I don't have any patience for the "poor me" act and he does, for some reason.

And, like many women of her generation, she has a lot of internalized misogyny. Because she's PD, it's all twisted up with her arrogance, jealousy, insecurity and control-freakery, and has given her an absolute need to be superior to females and to play up to males. I've seen it throughout my life in the way she mistreated not just me, but her younger sister, some of her female friends AND (unforgivably) my DD - but not my brother, ex-DH1, DH2, DS, uNPDf (she was a big time enabler there). I was always her SG growing up (while bro was more the SG for uNPDf).

Basically, my experience is that both parents - at her instigation - belittled, shamed, mocked, criticized and judged me continually ..and then blamed me for my reactions, "you're too sensitive," yada yada.  I think bro kind of believes it, that I'm too sensitive. It's so enraging! Having said that, I asked my brother recently if uNPDm had ever told him that he "needed to learn to take criticism" -- and he seemed surprised and said no. Maybe it hadn't occurred to him what uNPDm actually did all those years.

[samtosha]

Moglow, no worries! I appreciate your advice and wisdom so much. 

I'll come back and let you know how it all goes. I am feeling better about it having talked it through with you guys. 

[moglow]

Maybe it hadn't occurred to him what uNPDm actually did all those years.

That may be so, Satosha. I tried to talk to mine about it for years but until she turned on them, they never really saw it. I think they honestly didn't realize how much and how pervasive it really was, that it was incessant. To their credit though, I had stopped even talking about it because I thought they didn't want to hear it. So they weren't in a position to see the whole picture.