Abuse discussions with my counselor

[Prototypian]

Disclaimer, I have clinical depression and there could be many causes, it's under treatment.  I have a counselor through insurance who is a therapist.   The counselor is new to me this year and I've been moving though the discussions of history and events.   Yesterday we were talking about the book "Walking on Eggshells" which I have read and have a copy of.   I've described the fear the kids and I have of my spouse coming home and the concern we have with her blowing up over the dishwasher loaded "wrong" or the latest newspaper not being in mediately accessible or me getting old things of mine together to give to charity.

She (counselor) said in a straight talk kind of delivery, "this is abuse that you live with"

I said, is it abuse if the person doesn't know theyre hurting the others or if they think they have good intent and she said "does it matter"   

This has given me a lot of think about.  I wish over and over again that I didn't have to live the way that we do.  I'm not constrained by finances and have a strong career, really tight extended family and connected social circle.   I know part of the reason I don't just walk out the door is that there is a perception that I have been a good husband for nearly 30 years.   But this level of being put aside, ignored and living in fear and shock has been going on since day 1 of the marriage.   I just wanted to make sure I appeared to be a good man.

This has just given me a lot of things to consider as to what is abuse.   You always see the concept of a battered wife being hit by an angry emotionally distrubed husband.   I don't think about it in terms of "someone who is so concerned about waste that they keep vacuum bags on a shelf in the garage to avoid the potential.loss of Legos or change sucked up inadvertantly in the vacuum" as abusive.

[SonofThunder]

Jsinjin,

So glad to read you are visiting a therapist and sorry you suffer with depression.

You wrote:  "...is it abuse if the person doesn't know theyre hurting the others or if they think they have good intent and she said "does it matter"  

You also wrote:  "I don't think about it in terms of 'someone who is so concerned about waste that they keep vacuum bags on a shelf in the garage to avoid the potential.loss of Legos or change sucked up inadvertantly in the vacuum' as abusive."

I agree with the therapist.  I believe 'abuse' of other people is centered around 'predation' ; a (+) gain for the abuser at the (-) expense of the other person without it's willing, voluntary permission. 

I believe 'abuse' of oneself is an assumed (+) gain at the (-) expense of oneself.  Again, 'predation' of oneself. 

Therefore, I believe if your wife lived alone, and "kept vacuum bags on a shelf in the garage to avoid the potential loss of Legos or change sucked up inadvertantly in the vacuum", that the action, in itself, is not abuse of herself. 

But, when these same habits and desires for herself become, in predation, an attempted emotional, physical, financial, time (-) expense for other people, i believe it becomes abuse.

If a person freely, willingly volunteers (not through any form of coercion) to (-) appease the (+) desires of the other, than i believe it is not abuse. 

SoT

[square]

The way your wife treats you is abusive, and it's not even borderline. I know that is probably hard to hear. You and the kids have endured a non-stop campaign of terror. You are punished for doing normal, healthy things.

A relationship is rarely spang on 50-50 in all respects, but the idea is to try for something equitable. If one person demands total power/control and uses fear or similar tactics to achieve it, that's abuse. And that's the situation you're facing.

Abuse is absolutely not just man-batters-woman. It comes in many forms including women abusing men, women abusing boys, women abusing girls - as well as men abusing men etc. And abuse is not always battery, but women can and do use physical violence as part of their abuse. And physical violence is not always a factor, and even if it is, it's never the only form of abuse.

I know society hasn't really caught up to these ideas yet but I do see progress. In the meantime, I'm confident that here in this forum, people understand it, that we take your situation seriously, we see the abuse, and we're rooting for you.

[square]

Just another thought. I can relate to not wanting to be seen as a bad person. I'm okay with being wrong or making mistakes, but I hate the idea that somebody might think my intentions were malicious or selfish or something.

I've come to learn and accept that I can't control what people think, and the fact is that no matter what I do or how hard I try, I can't prevent everyone from having any negative opinions of me.

Some of those negative opinions are fair, as I am an imperfect person, and there is real freedom in knowing that I am flawed and it's okay. I do my best and that's all I can do, I can let the rest go.

Some of those negative opinions might be entirely inaccurate. For example, a PD can have an entirely unfair and even entirely untruthful opinion about me, and there's not a dang thing I can do about it, because it's about them and not me. Such people have negative opinions about almost everyone, so the value of their opinion of me is not really great. A person with a nasty opinion of others in general really does not define me, so I can discard it.

If someone thinks poorly of you for you leaving your wife, is their opinion really definitive of you? Is it that valuable? Are they judging you with a yardstick you value or one you don't value? Do they even care that much about you or do they just use any chance to judge others for a fleeting feeling of superiority? Will the judgments last or will they fade?

And finally, do those who sit in judgment of you have to endure what you endure? And are their judgments so valuable to you that they are worth the price you're paying?

[Kat54]

Glad to hear you have sought counseling. And your counselor is correct. Does not matter whether it's intentional abuse or not.

And you and your children are definitely being emotionally abused.

It's such a difficult situation and I remember so clearly when I went through that. I think I only told my ex once I thought he was abusive. I was afraid of him so the fact I could even say it once which truthfully I don't think he even heard me or chose not to. But I also told him he had severe anxiety and anger issues. I was trying to bring to light his behavior and how much it was hurting me and our kids. But his only reply was "this is how I am so I'm not taking a pill or doing therapy"

Abusers can't change is what I'm saying. And their perception is very skewed on what they think abuse looks like. My ex said he wasn't abusive... it's how he got his point across, he said.

Keep up the counseling it will bring more clarity to you. And it's good to get it all out.

[Cat of the Canals]

I said, is it abuse if the person doesn't know theyre hurting the others or if they think they have good intent and she said "does it matter"   

There are plenty of physically abusive parents (and spouses, for that matter) who claim to be "trying to teach a lesson." They have, in their minds at least, this so-called good intent. I don't know if I necessarily believe that's the entire "why" to their abuse, but it's what many of them tell themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if your spouse is the same. She can claim she's doing it because it's "the correct way" or will "make things better" but I think there's an underlying need for control that is much stronger than many PDs will admit. And I don't think there's ever any good intent behind control.

[Stillirise]

Jsinjin,
I've been rooting for you here for a long time. I know how difficult and eye-opening coming Out of the FOG has been for you.  The best I can offer is what I learned when I went through this. Trigger alert for what's next.

My updxh never believed he was abusive, not during the verbal or emotional abuse, not the sexual coercion, not the times he grabbed me to physically restrain me from leaving...because he never hit me.

If I acknowledged abuse, I thought that automatically made me a victim...something I never wanted to be.  If I acknowledged that I had to make "selfish" decisions to protect myself, I thought it would make me look like a bad person...something else I didn't want to be.

In the end, no one is coming to save you, or me, or our children.  We have to make tough decisions for our well-being and maybe even our survival, that might hypothetically make us seem like something we don't want to be.

What I found is instead of feeling like a victim or a bad person, in the end I felt empowered and grateful that I was able to protect myself and my kids...the most important job a parent has.

Once I took the focus off whether updxh knew he was abusive or not, and moved the focus onto myself and my kids, it got so much easier.

Best wishes to you!

[Associate of Daniel]

Great responses above.

I wonder if it might be helpful for you if you thought of the situation in more simplistic terms.

(Abuse is very complex but sometimes a simplistic approach is helpful.)

If you and your children were walking calmly down the pavement one day, quietly going about your day and doing nothing wrong... if a truck suddenly mounted the kerb and hurtled towards you all and was going to plough into your happy group... what would you do?

You wouldn't stay on the foot path.  You'd move out of the way of the truck.  You'd get yourselves to safety.

Or when you're driving on the highway, you stay in your lane instead of using all of the lanes as your own... because to do the latter is unsafe.

In my mind, your wife (as I interpret your writings) is like the truck, or like the cars in the other lanes.

You need to keep yourself and your kids safe from her.

I have learned over the years that the body and mind absolutely keep the score.

Even if one is not being physically abused by the connection of one person's body to another person's body, if the other forms of awful behaviour are causing physical and/or mental difficulties for others, (depression, anxiety, auto immune diseases and flareups), that is also (physical) abuse.

In my opinion.

But even without the above, leave yourself out of it for a second.  Do you believe your children are safe (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually) while in your wife's presence?

If not, as a parent you have to take responsibility for their safety, even if it means you look "bad" to others by doing so.

In my country there are several professions that mean the workers are manditory reporters of abuse or suspected abuse.  Teachers, doctors etc..  By law, we have to report to relevant authorities any abuse we see or suspect.

Maybe consider yourself a "manditory reporter" for your children.  You don't need to officially report it but as a "manditory reporter" you would be obligated to take some form of action to protect the children.

As for what others think of you if you leave, with pds, there are always double binds.  No matter which choice we make it's going to be the "wrong" one.

The fundamental thing that matters is your own conscience:  are your motives correct?

If they are, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.  And doing the right thing weeds out the people you perhaps shouldn't have in your life.  The right people will stick by you and a whole lot of new friends will be found in the process.

Even when we make the "right" decision, with a guilty free conscience, there will be negative consequences.  But the original intent behind the decision and the positive consequences of the decision far outweigh the negatives.

I feel like I've spoken rather strongly.  I'm sorry, as I know that might just add to the oppression and guilt you're already feeling.

I hope you can take courage and advice from the support your receiving on the boards here.  We're with you in your journey.

AOD

[JustKeepTrying]

jsinjin,

I want to first thank you for posting.  I think it takes a great deal of bravery and self-awareness to meet with a therapist and then post to the group here.  Plus, your question again reinforced for me my necessity to leave my marriage.

I too had my therapist tell me "That's abuse."  It was like a bucket of cold water being thrown at me and the last of the FOG was swept away.  For years I lurked on here under another name and tentatively asked questions - hoping against hope that someone would say - No.  It's not.  In fact, AOD used the same traffic analogy with me.

For me, it was a couple of things that kept me there for so long - more than thirty years like you.  I too believed physical abuse was the only abuse.  If he wasn't hitting me then it wasn't abuse.  Also, I thought for more than a decade that he could be fixed with therapy or meds.  Of course, none of that helped.  And I insisted he try it all.  In the end, he refused to do anymore.  And it was with that refusal that I saw he knew what he was doing - knew he was hurting me - and he didn't care.  He hid it for so long - or I just didn't want to see it.  I married him for better or worse; sickness and health.  But I think back to the beginning and all the signs were there - I now think he married me under false pretenses.

What she is doing is abuse.  You may not see it yet but soon I imagine, you will see a look that will get you thinking.  Once the FOG is gone, it's a whole different ball game.

This is a tough time and I am glad you are seeing someone who views the situation so clearly.  I am glad you are getting help for your depression.

[notrightinthehead]

Of course you are being abused - emotionally, financially, and even if she does not hit you directly, she throws things and breaks things in this way threatening and frightening you and the children.

[Lauren17]

I had a similar conversation with my therapist. More than one, in fact.
I remember the day she said I have been through "tears of emotional abuse"
That phrase, "years of emotional abuse" rang in my head for weeks. It still pops up every now and again.
I can accept that now, but I still have trouble using the word "abuse" because of the cultural connotations associated with it that you so clearly described in your post.
It's a lot to process. Please be patient with yourself as you work through this.
Keep posting. We're here for you.

[square]

I think most abusers do not believe their behavior is abusive. And I think the crux of that is entitlement.

I think the mantra of abusers is fundamentally:

I wouldn't have to X if you did/didn't Y.

They feel entitled to the compliance of their victim at any cost, and since they are entitled to it, the methods to gain compliance are therefore not abusive - in their eyes.

If an abuser could see that their behavior might look abusive to others,  the mantra illustrates how the abuser feels it is the fault of the victim for not complying. An abuser could even feel resentful for "being made to look abusive" due to the noncompliance of the victim.

But this mindset requires the acceptance of the false belief that the abuser is entitled to things that others (particularly the victim) are not.

Jsinjin, your wife feels entitled to your full compliance to her bizarre demands at any cost, and does not believe you are entitled to anything including basic autonomy. I don't doubt that she does not consider that abuse, because entitlement is the very foundation of that abuse.

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

Square, I don't think I've ever heard it stated so we'll as that.

[Prototypian]

Thanks all:

Lots to unpack.   I have been part of this mess for more than 25 years so understanding and unwinding is a tough project.

I'm seeing things a lot more though.   Our son is one of the top athletes in his sport nationally and has won our state's UIL (public school system) competition in his sports multiple times.   He has a scholarship to run in college and graduates in a few months.   He is starting the championship series which is district-area-regionals-state.   My wife and I went to the district meet and her interest, anger, disappointment and frustration is that he (son) doesn't care.   She continues to worry about "this is the last time he will ever run at district" and wants dozens of photos.   My issue is balance: a mom does have the right to take pictures at graduation of their kids even if the kids don't want them (mom earned the right to the photos so don't be a jerk) but turning everything into a sob story of "it's the last time I'll ever see him running on this track" isn't really that big of a deal when he is going through four more meets.   

I wouodnt bring this up but I can see this was a huge source of stress for everyone around and she made the whole problem about her.   I thought "line up with your medals and your friend and get your pictures taken".  But my spouse was making everything down to saving the track meet entry bracelets and photographing the lap timers a huge deal.

What I saw through the eyes of abuse or PD behavior was that she was determined to make the event about her and to do anything including make others uncomfortable to make the event about her.

[Poison Ivy]

jsinjin, it is possible that your wife is feeling a lot of anticipatory grief about your son finishing high school and likely moving away from home, and the grief is being expressed partly through her OCD-type behavior.

[Prototypian]

Naah, she does that kind of thing about everything.   I used to think that but now I see this as just normal PD behavior.   There is a difference between moms and dads taking pictures of the seniors at the last event and moms having a tear in their eye and acting as though life is ending and having to make everything about the PD instead of just enjoying the moment.   I've seen it too many times

[square]

Yeah, regardless of what she may or may not be feeling, the problem is her willingness to unbalance everything.

I am capable of feeling sad (and maybe sadder than normal?) about the passage of time and "last time for x" but I'm not willing to criticize, control, ruin the day, hoard, unload my full feelings onto others, etc, over it.

[BeautifulCrazy]

 My OCPDh was like this too. He would often make our entire family hostage to an expectation or desire of his, no matter how inconsequential it was to the rest of us (or people in general). It was inconceivable and distressing for him if we had a lower level of emotional investment than he did in a particular situation or outcome.