Can bpd be reasonable and empathetic?

[Nohigherjoy]

So, I just read "caretaking the borderline narcissist" and felt so validated over the crazy making of my marriage of 5 years.

My DH is undiagnosed, but he fits the characteristics from this site and the book; however, he is high functioning. Never any threats of suicide, etc. He can maintain a job without any upsets.

My question is can bpd be empathetic, thoughtful, etc? When he's in a good place mentally/ emotionally, he can be very understanding, apologetic, sensitive to my needs, etc. Is this the idealization stage where he's more in tune to me? He can be funny, playful, and a joy to be around. As long as he doesn't sense criticism or threat - Which I can't anticipate since
It can be so irrational, you know? Now that I'm out of denial, I'm trying to be more sensitive to his mental health without being hyper vigilant, but it is hard to balance this, as I'm sure you all understand.

When they act normal, it sure makes it hard when they flip out. I have no hope of him changing, but I guess I'm more aware that he can be a super kind man when he's having a good brain day. When that switch flips, it's awful. He knows I won't ride alone with him in the car anymore.

Anyway, I would love feedback on if this is just part of splitting- where he's seeing me as all good and so he's happier at the moment and more thoughtful until I become all bad again?

For example, I've been sick 24 hours and he's asked me how I'm feeling, encouraged me to rest, etc. He also called me to apologize about how stressed he was earlier today, but he didn't even need to apologize because he didn't blow up or anything. I've been watching how I word things around him -because I can totally see how my emotional overreactions and word choices can set him off. I know I can't figure it all out, but I'm wondering if I am "all good" to him right now and if that's when the bpd  can seem more "normal?" Am I making sense?

[LemonLime]

Hi Nohigherjoy,
Yes, you're making perfect sense.  I'll be following this thread, because my sib is very similar.  I used to think she's borderline, but now I think she's a covert narcissist.  Or at least she has those traits.  She is truly fun to be around and I believe does have empathy.  But like your hub, if she gets a whiff of criticism....game over.   Claws and fangs come out faster than I can believe, and cruelty ensues with biting, scathing evisceration of whoever she thinks is criticizing her.  Nothing seems to be off limits.    No physical violence or swearing, but red-in-the-face sweating rages will happen.
She will use any verbal weapon, past event, gross generalization she can find.  Like a desperate animal.t
It's so so hurtful.  And she will not apologize.  She absolutely insists that those around her forget it ever happened.

[Cat of the Canals]

You are very much describing my BPD/NPD mother, Nohigherjoy. She is also high-functioning. Stable marriage and same job for decades. She'd never threaten suicide, because she has a pathological disgust for it. I think she hates it so much because it is something someone could do that would illustrate how little control she has over the world. Her friends would describe her as a wonderful person.

And yes, I do think it's a splitting thing. My mother is generally very well-behaved, kind, generous, thoughtful, etc., etc........ IF everything is going her way. As a result, my entire family vehemently believes that her "happiness" is our responsibility. If she's unhappy, the first thought that runs through all of our minds is, "How do I fix this?" So there's a clear manipulation element at play, too. If we keep her happy = everyone is happy! If we make her upset = everyone suffers. It's an obvious choice, isn't it?

She's also a very over-the-top lovebomber. If she senses that she's gone too far with one of her tantrums, she will go above and beyond in her kindness and praise to get back in our good graces.

Lastly, I believe she's figured out that it's easier for her to get what she wants if she stays on our good side. When my SIL works up the gumption to complain about something my mother has done, she often subverts it with, "But she does so much for us." As if my mother's so-called kind acts earn her a certain quote of bad behavior.

[Boat Babe]

Sometimes my mother is delightful. And it's genuine.

Doesn't last.

[pianissimo]

This looks like lovebombing.

I understand splitting to be a reaction. They go from 0 to 100 when they express positive or negative feelings. Like, if you do something that pleases them you are the sweetest person in the world, and, if you do something that upsets them, "You are always like this". I think this is a BPD trait because it points to an inability to control emotions. I think, from BPDs, you would experience lovebombing as a burst of emotions, like a big hug that comes out of nowhere. The way I understand it, lovebombing and devaluation feels different when it comes from a BPD source. It has a spontaneous element. NPD people's lovebombing is more manipulative and inauthentic. In either case though, the person's love is inconsistent and unreliable. Conflicts with them do not resolve. Note that this is my take. I'm not a professional, I might be wrong.

As a side note, your post made me think that you are walking on eggshells. So, emotional abuse is still there?

Also, his outburst has nothing to do with you. There is not much you can do to help him control his outbursts. It has nothing to do with you, like nothing at all. This is what I observe in my case, at least. The whole outburst would be directed at me, in a matter that would be related to me, but, I would later find out, there was something else going on that set them off, and I was just on their way. They are quite the weirdos.

[SonofThunder]

My experiences with both NPD and BPD is that no matter what the behavior looks like on the outside, it's really always about them and their needs (needs fully hidden or on full display) at the time. 

Therefore imo, the only 'genuine' i can count on is that the PD's needs are attempting to be met, and therefore the behavior is carefully chosen by the PD to fulfill self needs. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Hi Nohigherjoy,

I can completely relate to what you are saying, my uPDw is very similar. In fact, I often doubt myself when she goes through "good times." The longer she is "nice", the more I think, "perhaps this is all just in my head. What was I thinking that she has a PD? She is a great person, I'm lucky to have her!" and on and on...BUT, inevitably, the other shoe drops and I'm reminded of all the horrible things she has said and done. The fact that I doubt myself and feel guilt in those times is, sickeningly, exactly what a PD wants.

I absolutely LOVED the "Stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist" book, but the danger of any book talking about PDs is that they have to generalize behaviors. I've noticed that since PD is so complex, not every behavior mentioned in these books apply in all situations.  I can guarantee you not all NPD/BPD individuals are suicidal or have trouble holding down a job. Many are highly successful in life, and only the person who is their target of abuse knows who they really are.

Yes, my wife can be reasonable and empathetic when she's in a "good head space." She can do all the things you described your H doing. Or, maybe I should say, she can appear to be reasonable and empathetic. Similar to your husband, my W can be apologetic, affectionate, kind, caring. She can even seem to take responsibility for her words and actions, saying things like, "I know what I said/did hurt you." BUT, it's so fragile. She only does these things if I'm "doing right" in her eyes. The moment I do something that she perceives as bad/wrong/incorrect, the switch flips and I'm the worst person in the world. And it can be so unpredictable...we can have 3 or 4 great weeks, then out of the blue BAM it all comes crashing down because of some perceived slight like walking out of a room while she is talking.

And if I'm honest with myself, I want to keep her in a good mood and do what I can to keep her happy, because life is so much more peaceful. BUT, this is codependency and abuse! I cannot let myself do this.

Regarding his behaviors, I don't think it's genuine empathy. I think it's a false mask of empathy to try and lure you back in (call it lovebombing or idealizing, whatever you want)...I've heard it said this way: if a slot machine never paid out a jackpot, no one would play it. PDs know (maybe subconsciously) that if they are bad all the time, we would never stay. They give us just enough of a "payout" to keep us engaged.

I would also encourage you not to stress too much about what exactly he is doing...whether it's "splitting" or something else. For the longest time I was trying to diagnose my wife, figure out the various behaviors and what they are called, and figure out how to combat them. But ultimately, does it really matter? It's better to focus on YOU, and just be yourself and live your life.

As others have said, when it comes down to it, it's all a matter of control. As SoT said, it's about him no matter what. Even these seemingly "kind" times are a subtle way to control you...if you want the good times to keep on rolling, then you'd better be on your best behavior. The best course of action, and what I've tried to practice (though sometimes fail in), is not worry too much about her moods at all. If she's in a great mood, I'm chill. If she's in a bad mood, I'm chill. I try not to get too excited when she's nice/happy, and I try not to get too upset when she's upset.

The ultimate aim, as I'm sure you gathered from the "stop caretaking" book, is to just live your life as you would, and the PD can live theirs. Stop focusing so much on them, and focus instead on yourself and what you want your life to be, with or without them.

+1 

[LemonLime]

I do feel like my uPD sib keeps a mental "ledger".   After raging at me in front of the whole family, she whipped out the "we came so far for this family reunion" guilt trip.   As if she has a right to rage at me because she travelled really really far to meet up for the reunion.
     I guess in her mind a certain number of niceties earn her a rage.

I guess that's part of their transactional nature.   It took me a very long time to realize that once the trust is broken, as it is by a rage, there is no amount of "nice behavior" that makes up for it.  Especially if the rager is unrepentant, unapologetic and feels that it is their perogative to rage any time they see fit.

I had to come to that conclusion myself.   If a genocidal autocrat is always the perfect dinner guest and brings the right bottle of wine and is charming, does that mean it's OK to be a genocidal autocrat?   If it OK to overlook the genocidal part of their personality because they are always nice to ME?   I ask myself that often.