Just 'separated' forever?

[BeautifulCrazy]

I have been married to my uOCPDh for 6 years. I left him nearly two years ago. Initially, I thought it would be great to sever all ties and I was quite impatient to get a divorce, but then I didn't serve him because I was too afraid to start an interaction with him. So I avoided it, and shelved it for "later".
The divorce itself is just a formality. We share no finances or children or joint interest of any kind. Neither of us are beneficiaries of the other. It was a second marriage for both of us. I don't see a third marriage happening for me. I'm starting to think that maybe I don't have to get a divorce. And maybe I won't. Just like when we lived together, I can avoid a lot of drama just by not engaging. 

[JustKeepTrying]

I can understand the desire to not engage.  And you may not have to.  But consider consulting with a divorce attorney to know the ins and outs of this - the ramifications of still being married.  Would he be entitled to health decisions?  Finances if you pass?  Could he take out a loan and you would be liable?  Just think it through and be sure it's in your best interest.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[Prototypian]

I so empathize with you on this.   As a person with a shared life and nothing else but still legally married, I just don't want to deal with her.   The last thing that you ever want to do is engage an OCPD with a formal bureaucratic process.  I live in fear of asking her to sign a son or daughters permission slip for a field trip.   

I definitely don't want to try and ever engage with another person again.   The mess leaves you too scarred and broken.   

I don't know how to advise you but I completely understand how you feel.

[Poison Ivy]

I echo the suggestion to talk to a lawyer who concentrates in family law. Even if you think you're not legally or financially connected to your spouse, state laws might dictate otherwise. The short-term pain of initiating contact and getting a divorce can have very positive long-term benefits.

[SonofThunder]

I echo the suggestion to talk to a lawyer who concentrates in family law. Even if you think you're not legally or financially connected to your spouse, state laws might dictate otherwise. The short-term pain of initiating contact and getting a divorce can have very positive long-term benefits.

+1. 

In my business experiences and one personal experience (depending on avail budget), my attorney was able to be hired to do all the 'engaging' for me, as I communicated only with the attorney and let the attorney fully represent me to the other party. 

Not sure about divorce proceedings though, and the ability to be fully represented by an attorney for relief from 'engaging' with the other spouse.  But there may be some people here who can validate/invalidate that ability. 

SoT

[Prototypian]

I don't know about this as I've dreamed of it but always been scared to even try it.   My uOCPD spouse typically ignores me if I need something specifically that she doesn't have time for but will give full angry attention and acts like a caged animal or frightened squirrel if pushed into a situation she doesn't have complete control over.   

I'd be afraid of high legal fees on my side where I had to be the go.between to get her to respond or I'd have to engage to help the lawyer even begin to communicate.   

These are some of the reasons I havent considered filing yet just because there is such a HUGE gap in normal conversation with her.   I've seen my spouse turn city agreements with garbage pickup information for our street into multi hour discussions between the city, the service provider and us to learn the exact distance between the curb and the trash can. And on the other side I've seen her ignore and refuse to sign things related to thousand dollar rebates on insurance for 18 months while they eventually expire after dozens of calls and me even mediating a call and having the document ready for her to sign.   If she is uncomfortable with something for any reason she won't do it and is often proud of the principle even if it hurts the family.   

I don't know if there are lawyers who deal with these people or not.

I work with a whole lot of project managers who are geniuses at getting engineers to complete tasks and estimate timelines and agree to details of their work.   I've never seen one of them come up against an OCPD person and I often wonder if the PM would eventually just throw in the towel!

[JustKeepTrying]

Goodness jsinjin you just described my ex.     

I would l like to add to SOT's post - in my state here in the US it is 50/50 in a divorce.  Whatever income, savings, house, cars, property and debt is 50/50.  No questions asked.  The only thing that changes this is if it was purchased/loan generated pre marriage or an inheritance.    Not all states are like this. 

I do agree that all communication should go through the attorney.  File the paperwork.  If he reaches out, respond with "Have your lawyer talk to my lawyer" and. that's that.  If you aren't dividing a home or assets or claiming anything from him - it should be easy and you don't have to talk to him at all.

[SonofThunder]

I do agree that all communication should go through the attorney.  File the paperwork.  If he reaches out, respond with "Have your lawyer talk to my lawyer" and. that's that.  If you aren't dividing a home or assets or claiming anything from him - it should be easy and you don't have to talk to him at all.

+1

BeautifulCrazy and Jsinjin,

Regarding Jsinjins comment:  "I've never seen one of them come up against an OCPD person and I often wonder if the PM would eventually just throw in the towel!"

Most of us here at Out of the FOG are becoming very savvy with the toolbox and predicting the actions/reactions of our PD difficult people.  Me, its dealing with a BPD and NPD.  For Jsinjin, its a OCPD.

I would desire for my divorce attorney for fully interact on my behalf, eliminating my communication with the PDspouse as best possible (i will assume shared dependent children is one channel that is very difficult).  But, i would also fully consult with my attorney, combining my knowledge of personality disorders and the toolbox, with the attorney's knowledge of the law, to craft the attorney's response that keeps moving the divorce forward and anticipates the PD's manipulative attempts to detour, stall/create excess legal fees for me, create hardship etc..

Jsinjin, my guess is that if you (behind the scenes) consulted a PM in their interactions with an OCPD person, you would enable the PM to succeed using the PM's genius and your experiential consulting.

I have no intent in the future to try and convince/declare-to a divorce attorney that my spouse is a PD, but i surely would either search for an attorney with as much PD experience as I have, or I will assist an attorney by looking at his/her legal next steps and filtering it through my own PD knowledge and experiences to either accept the next step, or alter the step to protect myself from a PD spouses next manipulation attempt and move forward.

I actually have past experience with this with a very difficult person in a business arrangement from 2019.  Since the difficult person in the legal case was displaying behaviors that mirrored my experiences with my uNPDf and uBPDw behaviors, I guided my toolbox/boundary responses fully through the attorney, as if I was dealing with a PD and stayed one-step ahead of the difficult person. The case ended up flipping on the difficult person as our creative approaches ended up exposing the truth regarding the difficult person and the case was dropped, leaving me victorious.  My application of the toolbox and experiences really paid off well and the attorney and I worked well together as a team.  But again, all communication happened through the attorney. 

Our experiences and knowledge are powerful tools if used silently and creatively in a truth war.  I will not expose my battle plans nor my prior battle experiences (war analogies) to give a PD or difficult person an easy and offensive (vs defensive) advantage. 

SoT

[Poison Ivy]

When I got a divorce 6 years ago, I didn't hire a lawyer to represent me in the divorce. (I have a law degree and, because of my work, have more exposure to family law than many people do.) I did, however, pay a lawyer for a few hours' discussion of my situation. I explained that my then-husband could be very difficult to reach and asked for suggestions about how to file the necessary documents so as to maximize the likelihood of a relatively speedy resolution of the divorce. The lawyer also gave me very helpful advice about which information to include in the proposed divorce agreement and how to format the financial information. The lawyer said I should keep all communications between my and my then-husband about the divorce so that, if necessary, I could tell the court staff about my efforts to reach him.

[BeautifulCrazy]

I did the application for divorce last year. I did everything but file the application in court and have him served.
I have no ties or obligations to my OCPDh. We have never had any joint assets, debts, children, or interests of any kind. He can not incur any debt in my name. We both have other designates for anything that should arise. There is nothing requiring any type of proposal, agreement or settling.
I have no worries at all that NOT formally divorcing could come back on me.
I would not have to interact with him at any point in the process, even if he should respond in some manner.
We have lived apart for long enough that I could get an uncontested divorce easily and cheaply. A few hundred dollars and it is all over but the.....
well..... that's the scary part!!
Poking the bear.

It will be seen as an aggressive act.

Making a claim in court, even a simple divorce that he will not be able to contest, opens up the possibility of a counter-claim. There is nowhere he can go with this, he can only briefly make himself a nuisance. But he is highly likely to do that, if only so he can take a principled (in his mind) stand against me somehow.
I can see him filing an answer to my claim for a divorce demanding reimbursement for a patio table he once bought that I refused to buy matching chairs for. This will go nowhere. My divorce will go through.

But war will have been declared.
And, as they say, "All is fair in love and war."
I have had the benefit for some time now of being 'out of sight, out of mind', but that would quickly be over. I feel certain the smear campaign would pick up again and he would have a suddenly renewed interest in me, my work, my family, my friends, my address, my pursuits and endeavors of every kind.....
I know how this man holds a grudge, completely undiminished in intensity, even after decades. (He still urinates on the fence of a former playmate who offended him in middle school.) Anything could happen and there is no telling how far he could escalate once provoked. I can easily picture a restraining order or criminal charges being necessary. I can equally picture him simply making an irrational moral stand in court and then disappearing back to his life with one more thing to have angry rants about.

There may be a lack of closure in being just 'separated', but it might be easier, at least for now, than dealing with what would happen if I threw down the gauntlet of divorce. I was feeling like it was unresolved and needed action, buuuuuut.......  I think I might just settle down and get comfortable with it instead. I can get a divorce later if a compelling reason comes up, and who knows, all that rage he is carrying might leave me a widow rather than 'twice divorced'?! 

[SonofThunder]

I did the application for divorce last year. I did everything but file the application in court and have him served.
I have no ties or obligations to my OCPDh. We have never had any joint assets, debts, children, or interests of any kind. He can not incur any debt in my name. We both have other designates for anything that should arise. There is nothing requiring any type of proposal, agreement or settling.
I have no worries at all that NOT formally divorcing could come back on me.
I would not have to interact with him at any point in the process, even if he should respond in some manner.
We have lived apart for long enough that I could get an uncontested divorce easily and cheaply. A few hundred dollars and it is all over but the.....
well..... that's the scary part!!
Poking the bear.

It will be seen as an aggressive act.

Making a claim in court, even a simple divorce that he will not be able to contest, opens up the possibility of a counter-claim. There is nowhere he can go with this, he can only briefly make himself a nuisance. But he is highly likely to do that, if only so he can take a principled (in his mind) stand against me somehow.
I can see him filing an answer to my claim for a divorce demanding reimbursement for a patio table he once bought that I refused to buy matching chairs for. This will go nowhere. My divorce will go through.

But war will have been declared.
And, as they say, "All is fair in love and war."
I have had the benefit for some time now of being 'out of sight, out of mind', but that would quickly be over. I feel certain the smear campaign would pick up again and he would have a suddenly renewed interest in me, my work, my family, my friends, my address, my pursuits and endeavors of every kind.....
I know how this man holds a grudge, completely undiminished in intensity, even after decades. (He still urinates on the fence of a former playmate who offended him in middle school.) Anything could happen and there is no telling how far he could escalate once provoked. I can easily picture a restraining order or criminal charges being necessary. I can equally picture him simply making an irrational moral stand in court and then disappearing back to his life with one more thing to have angry rants about.

There may be a lack of closure in being just 'separated', but it might be easier, at least for now, than dealing with what would happen if I threw down the gauntlet of divorce. I was feeling like it was unresolved and needed action, buuuuuut.......  I think I might just settle down and get comfortable with it instead. I can get a divorce later if a compelling reason comes up, and who knows, all that rage he is carrying might leave me a widow rather than 'twice divorced'?!

BeautifulCrazy,

Imo, your last reply reads as if you have solidified your decision for yourself in confidence and considered the input provided.  Im happy for you that you are confident in your decision making.

You wrote:  "I know how this man holds a grudge, completely undiminished in intensity, even after decades. (He still urinates on the fence of a former playmate who offended him in middle school.) Anything could happen and there is no telling how far he could escalate once provoked. I can easily picture a restraining order or criminal charges being necessary. I can equally picture him simply making an irrational moral stand in court and then disappearing back to his life with one more thing to have angry rants about."

Shall i assume that he is not doing any of these "grudge" behaviors toward you at the present time?  If yes, what is your opinion as to why not?  You stated "out of sight, out of mind".  Are you stating that you believe you are now completely off his thought-radar and that is why you dont experience his PD behaviors? 

I do not believe my uPDw would simply forget we had a legal marriage and therefore not direct any of her PD behaviors toward me.  My uPDw requires, in 'predation' that she feed off target individuals; the more targets, the better.  She would even get necessary power and control-supply just knowing that she had me in a situation where i feared her grudge wrath, if i moved toward legal divorce, therefore she would be feeding off my "out of sight, out of mind" acceptance/fear. 

The two PD people in my life will utilize their "undiminished in intensity" traits to feed of targets wherever situations allow, so I would be shocked if i thought they simply cast me aside as a target no longer. 

As for me, i do not choose to live in fear of potential wrath, as that fear would keep my mind/body in fight/flight mode and I know, from current physical and emotional issues i deal with, that being in that state is unhealthy for me.  Therefore, in my case, i would utilize the legal system to officially end my legal marriage, and legally ready myself for the grudge behaviors during/after, as a process to eventually rid myself of fight/flight of allowing my wife to dictate my current/next steps, because i fear PD grudge behaviors.  For others like yourself, you people may be able to live in that legal limbo state better than me and a hat-tip toward those of you who can.

Why do you believe have you "avoided" and "shelved" it for two years yet for some reason, wrote about it on this thread and stated " I'm starting to think that maybe I don't have to get a divorce. And maybe I won't."  The reasons you wrote in your last reply sound very confident and im assuming you already knew those reasons before this thread. 

Can you live free going forward, knowing he possibly has you in a grudge-fear holding pattern?  I ask this because i desire mind/body freedom for myself and for my other comrades here on Out of the FOG, which includes you.  I personally will push myself through the legal truth-war of a divorce, and face the grudge wrath behaviors using the toolbox, so i can eventually live in peace and freedom from mind-games of my PD. 

Your Out of the FOG comrade,

SoT

[BeautifulCrazy]

SoT, thanks for your thoughts!
I have solidified my decision. And being reminded of all the things that aren't in my marriage anymore allowed me a new clarity on what that marriage actually is.
I left my husband.
If there is no chance at reconciliation, in our society, divorce is the natural seeming, generally accepted progression.
I didn't think much about or question that, at first. You have to live apart for a time before you can file and I was busy building a home and a life on my own with my children. Once enough time had passed, I did the paperwork required because it was that normal, expected step.
Then I experienced fear.... so I put it aside for a time.
Recently it occurred to me that maybe it was time I followed this road to its expected end.
Again, the fear.
And I questioned why I couldn't just avoid it forever and possibly never have to deal with it? Why not? (Sure, fear based, but rational and protective.) Maybe one day he will initiate divorce and I won't have to fear retaliation or over-reaction? Thinking that way, chickening out doesn't seem like a bad practical option. it just "feels" a bit bad. That was where I was at with my original post.

it is true that I am not currently receiving any of my OCPD's grudge behaviors.
There are a couple reasons why. The first is that when I left I prioritized and protected my physical safety and that of my children.
When I left, I did it quickly and cleanly while he was at work so I didn't have to go through any of the PD playbook with him. I had closed ranks with my most trusted people and cut ties with the rest. I moved to a new undisclosed address. I obtained a peace bond for my children and myself. I left my key to his house in the mailbox and texted him to inform him once I was safely out. That was my final message from that phone number. I have used a post office box for mail since that time and I got a different vehicle that is not at all conspicuous. My job has no specific location. He could guess at some of them, but the investment of time and energy he would have to make to "run into" me at any one of them would interfere with his own job. Something I know he would not do. His job is almost his entire identity.
The other reason is that without any way to contact me, and under the conditions of the bond, he was left with only covert measures after I was gone. He could not jeopardize his image by doing something illegal, so he had to devise a script of not caring at all and actually being glad we were gone. "Out of sight, out of mind" was a direct quote from the story he loudly proclaimed to all. It doesn't have to be true. In order to preserve his image, he is now stuck in this narrative. (It works very well for me too!)
BUT... I have no doubt that he would see getting served as overt and aggressive action on my part, giving him a justification for overt actions of his own. I suspect he would pull out the PD handbook once provoked and try everything in it that he could. Including possibly going to much greater lengths to find out where I live and what I am doing, without the hindrance of the now expired peace bond. I'm not very interested in going there. It is not predictable or safe. Hence the fear. 

I don't think at all that OCPDh will forget we have a legal marriage.... and maybe he does imagine he has power and control and therefore supply. He may see the marriage contract as something he still has hanging over me. I felt that way too, until I recently started to question it, and then reasoning through what everyone brought up as potential issues. My new conclusion: If there are no obligations he can call upon from it, and I never care to date or get remarried (I don't) and intend a life of celibacy, what does it matter then? If I emotionally let go of that contract (as there is no real obligation on either side) and accept that we can live "separated" for the rest of our lives, then it means nothing to me and he loses any actual power.  He can have his perceived power and keep that, and his grudge, to himself forever, along with the darn marriage. By his own weird OCPD rules, and because of circumstances he created, if I don't engage him, he can't come after me because he has too heavily invested in the narrative of how much better off he is without me.
So, yeah, that's where I am at now, after everyone's input and some thought experiments!! He can keep the marriage and I'll keep my peace and freedom. Yay me!!

[Prototypian]

BC:

I support you wholly in this and I completely and totally understand.   I am so very jealous of you being out of the home.   The marriage doesn't matter to me at all and I know I'm far to gone and too broken to ever want another marriage.   But I'm jealous of the separation. 

It is tax time for us in my life and marriage.   That's always hell.   My spouse sometimes files extensions for multiple years fearing that the accountants will be missing deductions for charity at the local clothing dropoff or other things like that.   Once again we are there with her refusing angrily to let me just handle it with he accountants and not having time to file things or deliver them.   

[Poison Ivy]

BeautifulCrazy, I understand your desire to not file for divorce because filing might anger your spouse. However, I still think it would be worthwhile for you to consult a lawyer to ask whether there are legal ramifications of being married that you haven't recognized.

[SonofThunder]

BeautifulCrazy,

I am happy to read you are at peace with your decision and experiencing the freedom you have designed and analyzed for your life.  I wish you the very best in your solo living and continued healing.

SoT

[BeautifulCrazy]

Thank you Poison Ivy, you are right of course and I will triple check before assuming I am free and clear.

[Penny Lane]

BC, I don't want to beat a dead horse here. But I want to put to you two scenarios.

One, if you are in the hospital incapacitated. From when I've been in the hospital, my understanding is that your spouse automatically gets to make decisions on your behalf. Maybe you can file some paperwork that could prevent that, but I really don't think you want your life in his hands in that manner.

The other is if/when you die. Your spouse would get all your assets. Even if you have a will explicitly leaving everything to your children, your spouse would be able to contest it and make your kids' (or their guardians') lives miserable for awhile.

I'm sure there are other scenarios I'm not even thinking of, which is why I think it's very wise to consult a lawyer as others have suggested. If nothing else to protect yourself and your loved ones.

Another point I would offer: You don't have to make a forever decision now. It sounds like deciding NOT to proceed has given you some peace, and you might need the healing that comes with that now. What if you decided instead not to proceed right now? That you will revisit this in a year, or five? Maybe by then you'll get your legal issues in order and you'll decide you never need to do it. Maybe you'll be in a better place to deal with the possible onslaught. Maybe he'll want to remarry in that time and be asking you for the divorce (fingers crossed!)

I'm sorry you're having to make this tough decision, and that the legal system could open you up to more abuse and heartache.

[BeautifulCrazy]

Thank you everyone, for your concern that I am well protected legally if I decide not to pursue a divorce! I feel the love and support!

I had an appointment with my lawyer's assistant and we went over the prenup and separation agreements and I came up with a few questions and potential future scenarios. My lawyer then answered my questions and examined both agreements and assured me that I am 100% free and clear and protected in any potential situation.
My OCPDh was dramatically playing the victim role at the time of our separation and he was very thorough in making sure I could not "take further advantage" of him. Annoying theatrics at the time, but I feel quite grateful for that now considering how well protected we actually are from one another.

To get back to my original post, I am having a lot of emotions around the filing / not filing for divorce. Not about the decision itself, I now realize, but surrounding my beliefs on marriage, my desire to be in a marriage relationship, and some very deep grief over past events and future outcomes. I'm going to explore this and I hope that I will be able to put my feelings into words well enough to start another post.

[JustKeepTrying]

BM - I am so glad that you are protected legally and had the courage to talk to your lawyer about it.  That knowledge is powerful.  And the peace of mind so worth it.  I wish you clarity and peace as you move forward with whatever your next steps.