Differing views on problems in relationship

[wisingup]

I just read an interesting article (Joshua Coleman is one of the co-authors) where about 1000 estranged parents were interviewed about what they believe is the reason for the estrangement.  80% believe that the main issue is their adult child's spouse or partner. 

And 60% (so lots of overlap here) believe it is due to their child's mental health or addiction issues.

This particular study did not talk to estranged children, but did mention that other studies have found the children most commonly cite emotional abuse, toxic behavior, differing expectations and personality clashes. 

Here's the link:  https://news.osu.edu/study-examines-what-makes-adult-children-cut-ties-with-parents/ 
Apologies if this has already been discussed here.

Anyway, lots to unpack here.  My thoughts (would love to hear others' thoughts!):

1)  My rocky relationship with my mom DID coincide with the start of my engagement & marriage to my DH.  Why?  Because for the first time I was fully exposed to a good, positive relationship that didn't confuse me, didn't terrify me, wasn't based on guilt & shame & other forms of manipulation.  It was quite a revelation, and made it increasingly hard to engage in the relationships with my parents which I had now realized were highly disordered.

2)  I did have mental health issues.  An eating disorder in high school, extreme anxiety during & after college while the worst incidents were happening within my family.  After 30 years with DH & AWAY from my parents, I am 98% better.  I'm sure I'm within the normal range for human anxiety, especially these days!

3) Yes, there was emotional abuse.  Yelling, blaming, guilt-tripping, mocking any hint of self-confidence I tried to display.  But honestly, I could get past what happened in my childhood.  It is the same kind of toxic behavior going on now that is keeping my away.

4) Differing expectations - I think this is a pretty big one.  This is all speculative, but I think my uBPDm had some or all of the following expectations for her adult kids:
- that we would supply her with grandchildren immediately (both my brother and I were married for many years prior to having kids - at one point she actually banged on the table at a family event & loudly said "I want grandchildren.")
- that once said grandchildren were in existence, they would be the major source of her activities.
- that since we all worked full-time, we would spend many weekends driving to her town to let her see the kids & taking her out for lunch & hanging around her house.
- that the kids would be perfectly behaved and would not damage or break anything or cause any messes in her immaculate home
- that it's kind of cute when she "jokingly" berates and criticizes us, and we are being too sensitive if we take any offense.

These expectations have never been expressed (other than the table-banging incident), but brother and I have failed at each point above and have been on the receiving end of many a pointed sarcastic comment & many guilt-laden comparisons with her sister's kids and grandkids.

Now that she is elderly & the grandkids are grown (she has no real relationships with any of them, btw - just birthday & holiday stuff), I think her expectations were / are:

- That she could spend all her money because eventually she'd come to live with one of us, or we would otherwise fund her life.
- That we are now primarily responsible for oversight of her health, finances & day to day errands.

5) Personality clashes - totally - she is all drama & gossip & I totally drama averse.

So in reality, I guess I agree (in a way) with the reasons provided by both sides.  But it seems that the estrangement occurs when the children speak up about their unhappiness, and are met with some variation of "That never happened"; "You don't know how hard I had it"; "you're too sensitive"; "you had it so much better than I did as a kid" or other phrases that indicate that there will be no change in behavior by the parent.  At which point, the child is left to choose between continuing a relationship that makes them miserable, or walking away.  Not much of a choice, really.

[Cat of the Canals]

This is an interesting study. It reminds me of an article a while back about "parents estranged from their children. "It was written by someone who counselled the adult parents in these scenarios, so it was fairly one-sided. But what I found fascinating was that the author said that most of the parents claimed to "have no idea" what caused the rift. 

Those of us here know this is a big, fat eyeroll moment because I've lost count of the number of times I've read people here laying out very explicitly what is wrong with the relationship, only to have their parent/parents say, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT I DID WROOOOOOONG!!!!" As if they didn't just lay it out in excruciating detail.

So it's interesting that in some cases (maybe if they feel their answers are anonymous?) they will offer at least some reason.

The other thing I notice here is that all of these reasons cited by the parents -- it's the child's spouse, the child's addiction/mental health, or "I have no idea" -- remove any and all responsibility from the parent. Surprise, surprise. There is no 50/50 Rule for PDs, it seems.

And in regards to the "it's my child's spouse's fault!" I think you're right that many ACONs often start recognizing the dysfunction once they have "healthy relationship" experience. But I think there's another component as well. My PDmom has questioned whether I've been "brainwashed" when I didn't do what she wanted in the past, and I have a friend whose PDparents said something similar to her as well. This leads me to suspect that many PDparents can't fathom the idea that their children are autonomous and capable of making decisions for themselves... and in fact, if they are not following their parents wishes, they must be under the "control" of someone else. Obviously the spouse is an obvious choice.

[treesgrowslowly]

This is fascinating! Thank you for finding this and sharing it with us here wisingup.

I find it interesting that only 18% of the mothers surveyed felt that it was their fault the relationship became estranged.

I know my N parents don't blame themselves for the NC. They are part of the 82% who believe that THEIR relationship with THEIR child, is someone else's fault. It is not. It is their fault.

From that short article, I cannot tell if these authors have a trauma informed lens. At one point in the article, it compares mothers taking the blame with children taking the blame, as if these are equivalent.

Ummm...what?

The mother was the parent, the adult. The child was a child.

The article raises really important points. The parent is responsible for their behaviours because they are an adult. The adult child was never responsible for how they were treated when they were children.

The article suggests that mothers don't "know" that what they did "back then" was "wrong".

Oh, I remember my parent trying to use this argument with me. "I didn't know what I did was wrong". I didn't buy it. It was wrong, and the only healthy way to repair the relationships, is to learn what you didn't learn. If you didn't learn that doing 'x' as a parent was wrong back then, then learn it now. That is what was missing when my parent tried to argue that "I didn't know that my behaviour was wrong". That's not even the point. The point is - is that parent going to learn and change or not? Or will they just keep inflicting the same damage on their now adult children, over and over and over, and expecting us to 'forgive' them (tolerate their abuse) because they "can't change".

In doing that, we block our own healing.

Very few of us who have gone NC, "chose" NC easily....most people want their adult parent in their life when they are adults. They choose estrangement when nothing else is emotionally safe. To my mind, that speaks volumes about who is at fault for the estrangement because IF the adult parent went to therapy and actually took responsibility for themselves, and stopped HARMING their adult children (and other family members)... that is actually what most of us want...we don't want NC. At least that is what I believe.

We just wanted a mother who didn't constantly cause emotional damage to us, over and over and over. I feel like this needs to be the lens that researchers use to study estrangement. Narc parents don't change, and so NC or VLC is a way of coping with a crummy situation one has been handed. We play the hand we are dealt in life.

No one asked to be born to a N parent.

I am suspicious of anyone who thinks that adult children are casually estranging themselves from parents just because the parent isn't "perfect". Most people want their adult parents in their lives - it provides them with a connection to their past, it is part of their social well-being, it is where there can be a type of support and love that would be very rare and hard to find in any other relationship we might create as adults.

I understand I do not hold much of a charitable view of parents whose adult children have estranged from them. In my view, those parents had ample opportunity to learn what they were doing wrong, and correct their behaviours. Most of them have adult children who never wanted to navigate adult life without loving, supportive parents as part of their social circle. Most of them have adult children who are doing the hard work of living without loving parents in their lives.

Being estranged from parents is a painful journey - many of us tried everything (to make the relationship healthy) before we went NC. We tried to make our parent healthy, because we didn't want to go NC.

To my mind, this article suggests that 82% of mothers are likely in denial about their role in the estrangement.

The idea that their kids were 'turned against them' by others, doesn't hold water with me. If my mother had been loving and safe, no one would have been able to turn me against her - that is not how relationships work.

If I had had a loving parent, I would have protected that relationship with all my heart.

Trees

[NarcKiddo]

I am not NC, but I am LC and use grey rock. The main reason I am not NC is because "family duty" has been drummed into me all my life and I cannot shake it from my conscience. My responses to the OP numbered points:

1) My mother considers women inferior to men and that a wife should defer to her husband. As such I realised marriage would be an escape so I rushed away from home and into marriage as soon as I could. (My mother actually did the same thing to escape her mother.) The desire to use my spouse as some sort of shield was subconscious, but only just. The first marriage was a disaster and my mother lost no time in trying to grab me back into the fold. But I hurtled into another marriage, which has had difficulties but endured for over 30 years now and we are happy overall. When I was considering divorce some years ago my mother did voice the opinion that she thought my husband was trying to keep me away from the influence of family members.

2) I did not have mental health issues my mother could have pointed to, though I probably did/do have some.

3) My mother inflicted appalling emotional abuse, and there were elements of mild physical abuse. These bordered on the sexual at times. Funnily enough she was commenting the other day on an incident from my childhood (she claimed to think it was my sister) in which she had held my finger into an open flame to stop me from constantly going near the gas cooker after she had repeatedly warned me not to. She remembers even how she had counted to three out loud while she did it. She remarked that such an action would probably have got her reported to the authorities these days but was not even slightly sorry about it. I don't believe she thought it was my sister and I think she was trying to get a rise out of me. As I do grey rock I just nodded along, and agreed that yes, such treatment of a child would indeed be reported to the authorities these days.

4) My mother also demanded grandchildren and at one stage threatened disinheritance if I did not produce them. My sister did not come under that pressure as she was not married and children out of wedlock was frowned upon. Neither of us has produced children and we are now both too old. My mother these days takes the view it is wonderful we did not produce them as she does not want to have to look after kiddies.

5) We would have personality clashes but I do my best to display no personality around her. She of course has to be the queen bee and I just let her believe what she wants. She has a group of fawning acolytes which changes periodically as some see the light and new ones have to be found.

I find it particularly galling that my mother treated us the way she did, bearing in mind her mother was worse (if possible) so she had direct experience of that sort of damage. I can understand that it would have damaged her, as it has damaged us. A large part of the reason I have not had children is because I can't entirely trust myself not to repeat some of the mistakes. I would have tried not to but quite frankly the world is probably better off without our family genes in it. Another large part is that my mother (despite demanding grandchildren) made it both implicitly and explicitly clear that having children is an appalling burden and that they are not in any worth the hassle. So why would I subject myself to that?

I'm not surprised that so many of the mothers surveyed did not think it was their fault. Nothing is ever the fault of a N parent in my experience.

[wisingup]

Cat of the Canals - You're right, the moms have provided explanations that absolve them of any role in the issues.  In a way, they've also let their children off the hook by blaming it on some third party or a mental health issue - like if those things were to disappear, the relationship would be dandy again.  I'm sure this protects their ego to some extent, but it effectively prevents any reconciliation from being possible.

Treesgrowslowly - I like your statement about your parents believing that their poor relationship with their child is someone else's fault.  And thanks for the reminder that the parents were adults and we were children when all this started.  I sometimes get down on myself on how I handled the whole speaking up about issues & trying to get her to see my point of view, finally settling on vvlc.  I was so anxious and terrified of her reactions, as I have been conditioned since infancy to be, so if I did a clumsy job of it, maybe that's not so surprising.

And yeah, the "I didn't know what I did was wrong" argument.  BS.  She did it (yelling, shaming) because it was an outlet for her at the moment that she needed that, at tremendous cost to me.  She would usually kind of slink around acting guilty after these raging episodes, so she knew full well it was wrong. 

[Blueberry Pancakes]

This is all so dumfounding to me. I have also read elsewhere that most estranged parents will state their child never told them what they did wrong, but when the children are surveyed, they state they did explain it.

Point 4 on differing expectations of the relationship is huge. My parents did expect to their adult kids to bring our spouses and children to have dinner at their house every Sunday. My parents did expect we would put them at the center point of our lives and consult them on every major decision regarding new job offers, buying a new house, how to decorate, investment decisions, etc. My parents did expect to be close friends with our in-laws and to be central in the grandkid's lives. I did not do any of that they told me I did not value family life, was dis-interested, thoughtless and I must not really love them. It is a gap I will never fill.   

I am VVVVLC now which makes expectations more unfulfilled and disdain more apparent.

[moglow]

Wisingup, mine has blamed a variety of people all our lives as to why she has no relationship with her own children. She has blamed my brothers for our pathetic attempts at communication, has alternately blamed me for why she hasn't a relationship with my brothers. She's also blamed their spouses/partners, and has extended it to the grandchildren when that mood flies by. NONE of it and nowhere has she any responsibility whatsoever for her own relationships with her family. Common denominator, anyone?? 

I find it interesting that only 18% of the mothers surveyed felt that it was their fault the relationship became estranged.

I know my N parents don't blame themselves for the NC. They are part of the 82% who believe that THEIR relationship with THEIR child, is someone else's fault. It is not. It is their fault.

From that short article, I cannot tell if these authors have a trauma informed lens. At one point in the article, it compares mothers taking the blame with children taking the blame, as if these are equivalent.

Ummm...what?

The mother was the parent, the adult. The child was a child.

The article raises really important points. The parent is responsible for their behaviours because they are an adult. The adult child was never responsible for how they were treated when they were children.

The article suggests that mothers don't "know" that what they did "back then" was "wrong".

Oh, I remember my parent trying to use this argument with me. "I didn't know what I did was wrong". I didn't buy it. It was wrong, and the only healthy way to repair the relationships, is to learn what you didn't learn. If you didn't learn that doing 'x' as a parent was wrong back then, then learn it now. That is what was missing when my parent tried to argue that "I didn't know that my behaviour was wrong". That's not even the point. The point is - is that parent going to learn and change or not? Or will they just keep inflicting the same damage on their now adult children, over and over and over, and expecting us to 'forgive' them (tolerate their abuse) because they "can't change".

In doing that, we block our own healing.

Very few of us who have gone NC, "chose" NC easily....most people want their adult parent in their life when they are adults. They choose estrangement when nothing else is emotionally safe. To my mind, that speaks volumes about who is at fault for the estrangement because IF the adult parent went to therapy and actually took responsibility for themselves, and stopped HARMING their adult children (and other family members)... that is actually what most of us want...we don't want NC. At least that is what I believe.

Holy shit. Some of that/the "we didn't know" bs, md has actually said to me. Repeatedly. Trees, you sing the song of my people, using most of my own words.

I have also read elsewhere that most estranged parents will state their child never told them what they did wrong, but when the children are surveyed, they state they did explain it.

I've read in one of the estranged child groups, members [or maybe a therapist?] picks this one apart. They post various parents' posts with the "but we don't know what happened" and "they never talked to us about it" sobfest, followed by an excerpt of that same parent's own prior post where the child states specifically and leaving no gray area. The parents post verbatim emails, followed by more of the same. It's right THERE. And they talk about phone calls, family meetings, etc. But no, no one ever told them.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Moglow and others,

Great discussion about the topic this article raises. I agree Moglow, that is of course how they would react "No one told us what happened". It is denial. Plain and simple.

I was also thinking about where the article mentions that 'generationally' things have changed - what was 'acceptable' parenting to one generation, is now understood to be abusive / neglectful by the younger generation. This is how progress works in any culture / group. We have to keep learning what is a better way to do things. The sad thing is how much of this progress, has to happen through pulling away from relatives, because they are tied to keeping the old ways going, even if the old ways are damaging everyone and causing pain.

A lot of us here are highly compassionate people. It goes without saying that a lot of us would have been willing to unpack things on a broader level, with our parents. It is very likely that they were raised with N rules or family dysfunctions of some sort too.

But....The truth is that they raised us without breaking the cycle. We come along, and we push to break the 'cycle'. (that doesn't apply across the board, there are some Narc parents who had, themselves, pretty good parenting, and still became disordered in how they parented their kids).

For those adult parents whose adult children have gone NC, there is a lot they could unpack - if they wanted to. But the majority of them don't want to unpack any of it. They are the ones sweeping it all under the rug. There is a lot that they could learn if they came out of denial, but it sounds like a lot of mothers do not get out of denial about why their adult kids have estranged from them.

One of the realities of family dynamics is that the generation where the trauma originated, may not even be around by the time someone younger in that family breaks the cycle and pushes for more emotional safety for themselves. The adult relatives who are alive, but who lived with the more neglectful conditions, they are the ones who have a real hard time unpacking anything at this level, and seeing the changes that are needed. They basically can't get themselves past the "I lived through this, why can't you?" approach to family relationships. If their mothers and grandmothers were passive aggressive instead of assertive, they can't seem to get themselves into any sort of mindset where they want something better - even for themselves!

The familiar is preferred over the new, even if the new would be healthier for everyone. I have read that a lot of people think that trauma persists in a family for several generations before someone younger in the family says enough is enough, and pushes back. It is sad that in so so many cases, this involves estrangement, but I am of the opinion that the NC was 100% necessary for me to heal. I am sad for the relatives who refuse to heal.

Trees

[wisingup]

Great discussion everyone - thanks so much for your thoughts!

Wisingup, mine has blamed a variety of people all our lives as to why she has no relationship with her own children. She has blamed my brothers for our pathetic attempts at communication, has alternately blamed me for why she hasn't a relationship with my brothers. She's also blamed their spouses/partners, and has extended it to the grandchildren when that mood flies by. NONE of it and nowhere has she any responsibility whatsoever for her own relationships with her family. Common denominator, anyone??

Lol, same here Moglow.  There's always a reason for her issues and bad behavior that somehow...is not her.  And the reason is usually thrown in our face as something we should have known without being told.  The response she wants, to the best of my ability to figure her out, is to have others respond to her mistreatment of them with concern and pity for whatever it is she's going through.  Um...no.

I was also thinking about where the article mentions that 'generationally' things have changed - what was 'acceptable' parenting to one generation, is now understood to be abusive / neglectful by the younger generation. This is how progress works in any culture / group. We have to keep learning what is a better way to do things.

I agree here Trees.  I'm having trouble expressing my thoughts (have written and erased several paragraphs here ) but I think the difference with estranged parents is their unwillingness to examine their parenting & especially their unwillingness to hear their children's experience with it.  Somehow estrangement is preferable to the perceived humiliation of acknowledging harm done and apologizing to their children, who are supposed to be permanently subordinate & under their control. 

I guess "My kid's partner turned them against me" is easier to swallow, and to tell others, than "I was mean to my kid a lot & she wants me to apologize and treat her better and I won't do it."