Is this as good as it gets?

[Happypants]

Looking for the experiences of others who perhaps feel that their boundaries have had a so-called positive influence on pd family members.  I've posted before that things seem to have calmed down over the past couple of years - passive aggression, hoovering and minimising have greatly reduced aside from the odd interaction involving barely-concealed resentment.  I still feel the anticipatory dread, but seem to feel calm once in their presence and actually enjoy their company as long as I don't detect a "mood".  Pre-editing details about my life seems to come quite easily now, and we've reached an unspoken but agreed level of lowish contact (visit perhaps every 2-3 weeks, phone call approx once a fortnight, some messaging in between and some FB interaction).  I even forgot  that I might need to meet up with them during a break - that would previously have derailed me and destroyed the entire lead up to that period. 

All sounds great and in some ways it's what I've aimed for.  But, I'm not sure what I've achieved.  Has GR, MC and information diet successfully changed how they interact with me?  Or have they mellowed out with age?  Or am I being lovebombed/groomed to be on-hand in their old age so that GC can live his own life?  If that latter is the case, they're showing a lot of restraint in their interactions with me.  I honestly don't know any more.  I just don't quite believe that the underlying attitude towards me could possibly have changed just because I don't outwardly react to them.  And if I'm right about that, I'm not really sure where to go from here or what the point is of achieving this "improved" relationship with them.  Sorry, this probably doesn't make much sense. 

Ok, an edit.  I guess what I'm asking is - given that there's the general assumption that you can't change them, is them simply "playing nice" long term change enough to make it a relationship worth nurturing? I appreciate that ultimately only I can answer that, but I'd appreciate others experiences.

[NarcKiddo]

Grey rock has made my mother more tolerable in some ways. She generally makes a modicum of effort to be nice most of the time. On the phone when she has done her monologue about herself she remembers to ask how I am and what I have been doing (it's a tick box question, to which my answer is always along the lines of "fine" and "nothing interesting"). She has been doing a bit of love bombing and I stupidly thought at one point that maybe she is mellowing with age - but she totally outed herself on a recent family visit by acting very hurtfully. Hence why I am here, actually.

I still dread contact with her and am on high alert before and during. My recent experience has shown me that is wise.

For me an "improved" relationship is worth the grey rock etc that I have been doing. I am not prepared to go NC as things stand, and really hope she does not push me too far, so anything that makes interaction tolerable is a good thing.

[Cat of the Canals]

My husband and I have this discussion often. Our respective relationships with our PD parents are so limited it does seem pointless sometimes. There is no opportunity to be our "true selves." No ability to just relax and have a conversation. Even when they are on "best behavior" and we don't necessarily have to be hypervigilant, there is that low-level awareness that never goes away.

So my answer would be... yes, this is as good as it gets. I don't believe my mother or his mother will change. It would require a tremendous amount of self-awareness that I don't think either one is capable of. So the best we can hope for is a continuation of these tepid, lukewarm exchanges and superficial conversations.

[Starboard Song]

I guess what I'm asking is - given that there's the general assumption that you can't change them, is them simply "playing nice" long term change enough to make it a relationship worth nurturing?

I love everything about this post. You wrote it out so well, and even let us see you developing your thinking by adding on your important question, which you even spotted as the personal cost-benefit question that it is.

We've talked a lot in our home about how we'd respond to an overture. We are protected from your situation by distance: we certainly cannot navigate a re-start with folks who've retired to Florida. Before that move, we asked "what would be the point of a sort of life-support, brain dead relationship?"

For my wife, I think there was too much hurt to have tolerated a life-support, brain dead relationship. Especially when our son was nearly grown and there was no other family around, or reason to engage with them. We always said that, if our son had been a very young child or baby, or if there were other family involved (where our estrangement had larger, rippling effects), then it may very well be worth it to maintain an "OK" relationship, so that our son would have his grandparents and wouldn't know the pain of family estrangement.

I think the brain dead relationship would have been better than ever going NC, perhaps, if we'd known the tools to use and understood what we were dealing with. By the time we did, I think too much damage was done.

I wouldn't worry about the future. No, they haven't changed much, most likely. But for now, they are behaving. If at any time you are asked to do anything outside your boundaries, you can say NO with confidence. Good luck.

[Happypants]

Thanks for your thoughts on this.  I'm realising that years of baby steps, two forward and maybe four back at times, has finally paid off.  But, for a while last year I was convinced I was dipping into depression.  Now I've come to realise it was a new layer of grief I was working through based on the dawning realisation that the neutrality I was aiming for from them isn't the comfort I thought it would be.  Funnily enough, I'm just realising I'm now completely differentiated from them.  I thought I was before, but there was still that push/pull until recently (a change in me, not them).  I'm no longer on high alert ALL the time, and my energy throughout the day has evened out.  I feel incredibly sad if not a little empty around them, but I feel like I finally own myself.  I only hope it continues, but if I've learned anything, it's that his journey can take us on crazy detours just when we think we know where we're heading.

NarcKiddo - I hope continuing to GR helps you to work towards feeling more grounded in yourself in your interactions with your mum.  I know I found the inner conflict during visits almost unbearable and would wipe me out for a couple of days afterwards.

Cat of the canals - The "what's the point?" feeling is depressing. I guess, for me anyway, there was always the need to maintain a link of sorts, though for a long time there was hope attached to it.

Starboard Song - The two things that have stopped me from rocking the boat much in response to their behaviour is worrying about my father's health and my wish to keep contact with GC brother and family.  Whether I would be NC if it wasn't for the above, I don't honestly know.  But I'm no longer ruling anything out.  Thanks for your reply! 

[Sneezy]

Is this as good as it gets?  This is a very thought-provoking question.  I think my answer would be yes, this is as good as it gets, at least for now.  It can get worse though, over time.  And it can get better over time.  With my elderly mom (covert NPD) it seems to be getting worse as she ages.  Our relationship is built on medium chill and grey rock.  I try to make myself the most boring person I can be with her - no drama, no gossip, no information.  Bland, bland, bland.  And it makes me sad, because I mourn what I imagine a real, authentic mother/daughter relationship could be. 

With my MIL (uHPD) it has gotten better in some ways.  She has bad dementia, which is very sad, but in some ways it has made her sweeter and easier to deal with. 

Our relationships with others fall on a continuum, some being very close and some being pretty superficial.  I dislike having a superficial relationship with my mom, but it's the only option I can live with.  I don't want to go NC, and so this is it.  Is it worth it?  In some ways, it's not.  But I couldn't live with myself if I went NC with someone in their eighties.  And my siblings are very supportive (although it just may be that they are thankful she doesn't live near them  ), so I'm lucky in that regard.  Having to deal with our mom has made my siblings and I closer, and so I am thankful for that.

[Hilltop]

Is this as good as it gets or are they playing nice?  I sort of feel these questions are still expectations that they are going to change.  My mother and my MIL can be very nice for long periods of time until they aren't.  I don't believe they are acting or playing, I just think people are not always good or always bad.  Sometimes it's obvious my mothers attention is turned towards other more interesting things or there are simply periods of peace until there isn't. 

My MIL was really good until a few months ago when I noticed a few comments coming in and then when DH said he wasn't visiting her on Mothers Day as he was tired and didn't want to do the 3 hour drive she suddenly had to go to hospital for a minor thing which they couldn't find any problems and then she decided she could be released a couple of hours later when DH turned up.  I stayed at home, had a pleasant day and left them to it.

Thing is it really isn't about them.  It's about us.  We don't need to get drawn in, or react or taken comments personally.  Once we leave their stuff with them it does get a lot easier.

[Starboard Song]

Thing is it really isn't about them.  It's about us. 
We don't need to get drawn in, or react or taken comments personally. 
Once we leave their stuff with them it does get a lot easier.

[Sheppane]

hi happy pants thanks for this thread. I haven't been on here in a while . I can really relate and have been wondering similar.

you said " I feel incredibly sad if not a little empty around them, but I feel like I finally own mysel". I think that sums it up IME. I feel a void around me when I spend time with FOO now. I no longer  play into the patterns but what's left is a low contact -  always initiated by me. It is mostly pleasant and superficial but always with some low level hypervigilance on my part. So it never feels " normal", really. I didn't want to have to go NC, I understand that some folk need to. For me I sometimes wonder what I am getting out of what is mostly a one sided relationship. Sometimes I think I am still hoping things might get better , feel more connected more "real". Sometimes I slip into self doubt thinking I could do " more ". Yet I know that is really my desire to fix the unfixable. It's hard to fully accept there may be no happy ending. I also have what I think is a fear of future regret. Thinking of when the time comes I don't want to look back feeling I could have done more. And yet objectively I am the one making all the effort to maintain this level of contact. I'm not sure whether it is just that once I stopped engaging in the FOG that this is just what is left , laid bare if you like. Or whether in my case there is still some simmering resentment/ punishment towards me though it is not articulated in any overt manner. Its more an emptiness in conversation,  a depressing sort of lack of interest and a sort of air sucking low energy if that makes any sense. It's hard to describe. It's not that it is filled with quite so much tension anymore ..just...well empty I guess. I think where I'm at is needing to recognise a) it's not my fault b) it may not change and c) this may be as good as it can get. As in there is so much FOG there that maybe this actually is the best it can be. As someone else also pointed out often things are fine/ good again ...until they aren't. I hope that helps.