How/when did you recognise your parent/s had a PD? How can a nonPD mother help?

[rockandhardplace]

I'm not a child/adult of a parent with PD. As far as I know! My husband is most likely. He's always been very controlling. Eldest was GC, now SC is in her place as she's 15 and has a busy social life and activities. I suffered all the usual emotional abuse anyone close to a PD person does, without being able to see what he was. It really took me withdrawing completely - extreme GR - for his really obvious abuse to come out. Now he yells an inch from my face, calls me names and spouts the most incredible projections I feel he should be committed. I know living like this is so bad for me and the kids, but I'm worried that if I manage to escape he will either turn his abuse to the kids or completely alienate them from me.
I guess I wonder if any of you had anything you wish your nonPD parent might have done differently that could've helped you? And also curious about how you realised your parent had a PD? Sometimes I think modelling my values, being calm vs his chaos, calling out their bad behaviours (name calling, nasty criticisms mainly) but in a more understanding, gentle way (trying to remind myself they have learnt all this from him and think it's normal) is helping, but I don't know it's enough. I have no idea what he says to them behind my back. I suspect mostly he just bashes me, but I don't know. I know this will get worse if I can find a way to escape, which is what makes me feel so trapped. He loves nothing more than if he can find a way to make a joke with his kids about me in front of me. They've grown up with him telling them in subtle and maybe not so subtle ways that their mum is bad, so it's reasonable to expect he will amp that up and make it so hard for them not to reject me. I'm trying to learn all I can about post separation abuse and parental alienation so I can be as prepared as possible. I guess I just wonder if there is anything else I can do to help my kids see through him without labelling him?

[Liketheducks]

If I could have had any input in my parent's dysfunction when I was a child, I would have told them to either get help or split up.    I grew up in a very unstable household.    It taught me that I was unworthy of safety and secure relationships.   It has taken years of therapy to sort that all out.   

I was a young child when I recognized my father's abuse wasn't what most dads did.    His rages were out of control.   I learned to tiptoe around him.     Both of my parents likely have some PD or dysfunctional coping methods.   Though, neither has a formal diagnosis - nor would either of them feel the need to get some form of help.   It took many years for me to see my mother's part of the puzzle.   Kids in these situations usually will label one parent the stable one and one the villain.    I was in my 30-40's when I saw that mom wasn't at all stable and some of dad's abuse was seriously reactive.   Not excusing either of their behaviors.  This was just my experience.    For the longest time, watching my mother tolerate the abuse as "normal" taught me that relationships were supposed to be difficult.   

It may take some time, but your kids will figure it out by your actions and his actions.      Both parents alienated and blamed the other in my family....they still do.   Makes my head spin.   I was relieved when they split up.       Your kids will know by how you handle this.   They're already seeing how their father is.   

[justducky]

My experience is similar to Liketheducks'.

I believe my father was at least uNPD (the non-grandiose kind), highly anxious, and self-medicated with alcohol. He behaved just like his father did, although I never saw my grandfather rage, just heard stories.

My mother enabled uPD father's atrocious behavior for over 40 years. She might be a covert N; I don't know. I'm NC with her and my co-dependent sister. enMom's behavior got way, way worse after uPD father died. As others have said, she went full-metal waif.

By the age of six I knew that something was wrong with my father, and the emotional, verbal, and no-evidence-left physical abuse (trapping in rooms, sleep deprivation, etc.) he heaped on enMom was also wrong. enMom knew it too. She'd encourage me to visit friends' houses "to see what normal families are like."   

She has a large extended family, some of whom are well off. Yet she wouldn't leave her abusive husband. WTF.

As uPD father's behavior worsened and my sister and I (mostly me) also became targets of abuse, I begged my mother to divorce him.

She wouldn't. It might have been due to her religion. IDK and don't particularly care. She would not protect us. The best she could do was for all of us (my sister, enMom, and I) to stay at her mother's for weekends when possible. On Sunday evening we had to go back to hell.

College was my escape. As uPD father said once, I'd left and never returned. That wasn't literal for a long time. It's amazing how little insight they have to their behavior. Why on earth would I want to return to a house that I only had nightmares of to visit my abuser? No, thanks!

I hope you're able to get yourself and your kids away from your husband eventually, rockandahardplace. I understand that you're trying your best to shield them, and that's admirable. You don't deserve to be abused, either. 

[bee well]

I am sorry you and your children are dealing with this.

I was very young when I realized something was wrong with both of my parents, and later my step parent. Decades into adulthood, I am still dealing with the fallout.

Unless the uPd is in a program or actively working on themselves to change, you can count on it that they will not change, and quite possibly they will worsen. Certainly you cannot control their behaviour.

What any Mother, or caretaker or anyone else can do is: get help, and leave. If it isn't possible to leave right away, start making a plan, and learn as much as possible to protect yourself and the children as long as they are exposed to the uPD's abuse. 

When I refer to abuse I am talking about any form of abuse--physical. sexual, verbal, emotional, spiritual, and so on. In some situations, witnessing abuse can cause as much damage as being actively abused. Verbal and emotional abuse can be as damaging or worse than physical abuse. More exposure to abuse =  more trauma.

Some say that having one "good enough" parent can make a difference in a child's life. I agree, it does make a difference. but I still know there are plenty of people who had one "good enough" caretakers and they still have been traumatized by abuse.  Abuse is abuse. Trauma is trauma. Any amount of it is too much.

You are doing well to lead by example, modelling good behaviours, and hopefully having a dialogue with your children, or leaving the possibility open.

Again, unfortunately you cannot predict the uPD's behaviours. There's not much you can do about possible smears and alienation attempts by the uPD other than prepare and "batten down the hatches" should you decide to leave.

It's understandable you would be concerned that your children would be influenced, and possibly blame you for the problems going on inside the home. But even if there is blame, which could then even be temporary, you will know when you are doing the right thing to the best of your ability, there is nothing to feel guilty about.

In many cases where alienation occurs, children "come around" eventually and realize when there is manipulation taking place. When they have one "good enough" caretaker, it's more likely that would happen.

You are in a place of trying to figure out what is the lesser of two very bad situations. Stay in an unhealthy situation, or face the aftermath if and when you leave. Which is worse? Is it safe to stay? You worry about your kids. What about you?

You ask:  "is anything else I can do to help my kids see through him without labelling him...?"

The label is not important. Understanding the effects of the behaviour is important. Counselling to get through it is also important. For both you and the children if possible. 

Also, document all of the abuse. (It's hard to describe unless you have a clear picture of the patterns.) Don't remain isolated.  Contact a lawyer, a clergyperson, social services, a counselor, a friend or other trustworthy person. Continue to work on you. Focus on what you can do now, in this moment.

I don't know if you have heard of her, but there is a therapist called Kris Godinez who helps empower victims of abuse, including those who want to get out. She posts regularly on youtube. You might want to check her out and see if she resonates with you. Also Jerry Wise is very helpful in understanding toxic family systems. He focusses on learning to detach and stay calm in dysregulated situations.





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[Starboard Song]

I guess I wonder if any of you had anything you wish your nonPD parent might have done differently that could've helped you?

Sometimes I think modelling my values, being calm vs his chaos, calling out their bad behaviours (name calling, nasty criticisms mainly) but in a more understanding, gentle way (trying to remind myself they have learnt all this from him and think it's normal) is helping, but I don't know it's enough.

I think there are things you can do, but -- short of leaving with them -- it comes down to two things for me: outstanding modelling and age-apprpriate honesty and affirmation.

You should always be calm, open, kind, and flexible. Also strong and independent. They should see that you are doing your best in a hard situation.

It is fine and right, when someone else behaves badly, to say it: "I'm sorry he said that. That was not appropriate. That wasn't kind. I love you." You needn't get into labels or broad judgements. It is sufficient, if he calls a child stupid, to quietly pull them aside and say "you are not stupid, and it was unkind for him to say otherwise. I love you. You are smart and kind."

I cannot wait to see what more experienced parents say.

[Cat of the Canals]

 

Every situation is different, but I can say that I don't know how much my parents splitting up would have even helped, as I certainly would have still had to spend time with PDmom, and without the buffer of enDad. And he's not exactly the picture of outstanding emotional maturity himself. (That being said, if there is ANY physical abuse of any kind, my answer is always: GET OUT NOW.)

I do distinctly recall the few times my dad stepped in and said PDmom was being unreasonable. I don't think he did it enough, frankly, but the times he did still meant something. And in fairness, he's still very much in the FOG.

[bee well]

I've been thinking about this since my initial response and wanted to add: in any abusive relationship, whether children or involved or not,  it's important to emphasize it's not  always so simple as "just leaving." One has to evaluate if it is safer to leave OR stay, and both the short-term and long-term pros and cons. And if we stay, to be clear on what the reasons are for doing so. That being said, many minimize the abuse in the home because it isn't physical. Many also stay in said relationships, and suffer,  long after the kids are gone. Some eventually are able to leave and when they are sorting it all out then realize they had more power than they had previously realized......

[rockandhardplace]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm called rockandhardplace for a reason as this sums up how I feel about my situation. I just don't know which is more damaging to children - living in this dysfunctional situation, but with me around as a bit of a buffer, and currently the only one whose being abused - or them potentially spending 50% of their time with him without me around, or worse he turns them against me and they grow up with only his influence and believing their mum didn't love them / was a bad person. I was such an angry teenager fought with my mum all the time, but one thing that I've always had is knowledge that no matter what she loved me. It makes me so sad to think that they could grow up without that. But then I also wonder will they think that anyways if I don't get away? Will they blame me for not leaving? Although it is a question of when not if. I want so badly to protect my children and I just don't know how. I do think they are brainwashed, they don't see him as a bad person, but rather he is just so domineering and so sure of himself they just see power and I think they look up to him. I think this because I think he had me brainwashed too. I learned to walk on eggshells and let him make decisions to keep the peace, but also he made me feel so incompetent that I think I just accepted that he's probably right. It wasn't until our eldest (ex-GC) was really acting out - shook a knife at me once, hitting herself in the head, asking how do you kill yourself etc - and I would talk to him and no matter what she said he would say it's all just normal kid behaviour and was so so against me taking her to see anyone. In the end I went myself and that helped me to start to see the FOG I was in. I wonder is his abject hate of psychologists because of a history that I don't know about? All I know is he was sent to boarding school because his parents couldn't handle him. But I guess what i'm trying to describe is the way he's set our family up to see him as all knowing decision-maker so the risk of him getting them to reject me completely by escalating the denigration and making his attention conditional on them rejecting me is quite real and not at all their fault. I don't know what he says to them behind my back but at the moment his time with them without me is so limited. My 8 year old I think sees him for who he is. Because he wanted me to abort her and ignored her for first 5 years of her life and I was free to parent without his influence she is so clued in. She has the most amazing emotional vocabulary. I think with the others I would've made excuses for his behaviour, but now I call it out. Little things like he will compare her to her cousins - x is your age and can do xyz - she will come to me and say she doesn't think it's nice to compare people to others and I will agree. I frequently tell her that sometimes even grown ups can do the wrong thing and say the wrong thing but she can talk to me about anything. But another weird thing that happens. In my recent years I've called out his bad parenting - I don't call it bad parenting, but for example once she was having a meltdown about getting ready to go out - I was on a uni zoom - there were lots of tears and then she starts to apologise and says she promises next time she won't do that. He keeps railing on her saying things like "you always do this, you aren't sorry, you'll do it again", she's getting more and more upset saying "i will be better, I do mean it" etc. Anyways, I send him a text later to say that it's not good for kids to invalidate their feelings, that noone always does anything, it's damaging to their sense of self to hear that. I've recently pointed out that mocking children is not okay (he was mimicking exGC when she didn't jump to attention). There's been other times. But the weird thing I've realised is that when I do call out these things I get horrible abuse from him but he actually improves his parenting. So I think when my older kids were young I was more inclined to let things slide to keep family harmony, but probably deep down I was just wanting to avoid him abusing me? I remember our middle kid (exSC but now GC!) was getting nervous about waves at the beach and my way to handle that was to let him stay out of the water until he felt safe. UPDh method was to pick him up and throw him into the sea! I couldn't do anything to stop it in the moment but I did tell him after that I don't think anyone should force kids to do things like that. He started getting back into the water after I took him to pools with waves and let him just paddle his feet at the beach and eventually he decided for himself he wanted to get back in. Similarly with amusement rides - UPDh would just tease / mock him for being scared so I would tell him to stay home with me instead and allowed him to skip a school excursion to amusement park. Then we went to a few places with more gentle rides and he wanted to try and now he loves them. But the weird thing is he seems to have completely forgotten how horrible his dad was to him now he's GC. I don't think they will see him for what he is.
ugh this is turning into a ramble.
Did anyone reading this have a PD parent like this? Extremely controlling but comes across as just the man in charge? The one who knows stuff and should be followed? I guess seeing what's happening with the new GC is slightly concerning. I suspect he's just so happy he's getting attention from his dad but I worry how much he will bend to try and keep his new status?

[notrightinthehead]

Your kids are not babies anymore. 15 years is old enough to have ones own thoughts and make decisions. You won't be able to control what your child does anymore. The best you can do now is to model healthy behaviour. Put doubts in his mind about the behaviour of your husband. About his decisions.
As you are aware, you modeled the walking on eggshells around your husband for your kids. You behaved submissively and gave in. You believed him when he put you down. You allowed him to behave like a bully. This is in the past. Now you have changed.  You no longer agree with this behaviour.  Your kids might need a bit of time to get your changed perspective. And you can help them. You can be honest with them. You can express your true opinion and your true feelings, even if you tell them that you are confused. Be authentic with them. And teach them what you learn about yourself and your situation. And then allow them to choose for themselves. Let them know that you love them, no matter what.

[justducky]

I just don't know which is more damaging to children - living in this dysfunctional situation, but with me around as a bit of a buffer, and currently the only one whose being abused - or them potentially spending 50% of their time with him without me around, or worse he turns them against me and they grow up with only his influence and believing their mum didn't love them / was a bad person.

IMO staying in the severe dysfunction you've described is worse. You are modeling that abusive relationships are acceptable.

It wasn't until our eldest (ex-GC) was really acting out - shook a knife at me once, hitting herself in the head, asking how do you kill yourself etc - and I would talk to him and no matter what she said he would say it's all just normal kid behaviour and was so so against me taking her to see anyone.

Your eldest acting out was a cry for help. Thank goodness you recognized that and starting getting outside help.

I'll be blunt: your H sounds like a monster. No matter how hard you try to buffer them from the worst of the abuse, your kids will be affected.

Edited to add:

Wow, I just re-remembered that one time when I was a teenager and uPD father had again trapped enMom in their bedroom so he could berate her for hours and keep everyone up all night, I got super upset, went to the kitchen, got the biggest knife I could find, marched into their bedroom, and threatened to stab that awful bully whose genes I have. enMom was alarmed. uPD father looked at me funny.

I don't remember exactly what happened next. I think I started crying. uPD allowed enMom to go to me. She got the knife from me and led me out of the room. She may have held me as I cried.

I don't remember if uPD father started up the abuse again after I'd gone back to bed. He did that a lot. He wanted his rage/belitting fix.

enMom took me to see a therapist three times after that. Although she didn't say it directly, clearly I was the problem in her opinion. I think it was only three visits because those she got those free due to benefits at work.

I effectively fled my immediate family by going to college. Getting away was the best thing I ever did. enMom and enSis, for whatever reasons, chose to stay.