Do you ever feel like your Narc Parent comes out of it from time to time?

[sunshine702]

This has left me perplexed for years - even after I figured out mom is a Classic Covert Narc and what each role my brothers and I and now the Grandkids play.

From time to time she seems normal.  I can have a GOOD conversation with her.

It's only every now and then.  Mostly the conversation is how SG brother is a loser and how much she hates his girlfriend L.  How wonderful Grandchild H is and the funny text exchange they had the other day.  How wonderful her backyard and store is but how much WORK it is.   I have a BINGO card.  I almost always win.

But every so often I will feel .... HEARD AND CAREd ABOUT something I struggle with a lot.   I want it but have learned not to expect it.  But then it's back to the routine.  Very off balance as I never know what I will get.

[sunshine702]

 Is this Gaslightening?  That the Gas Light is actually on sometimes for real and they validate your perception?    Can they turn it (validation) on and off?   Do they have consciousness of this interaction??

[Sneezy]

This is a good question and it really has made me think.  I don't know the answer.  But I do know that over the years, I have had some really fun times with both my HPD MIL and my covert NPD mom.  Neither one of them was always awful to be around.  They both had spontaneous, fun, and (what seemed at the time) like genuinely happy moments.  Sometimes more than moments, sometimes they would seem to be "normal" for a length of time.

For both my mom and my MIL, they were happiest when they were very busy and (of course) the center of attention.  They both thrived on being the mothers of young children and all the attention that brought with it.  My mom loved marching us all up to a front pew at church every Sunday, just to show off her big family.  She signed up for every activity and volunteered for everything.  And that was truly helpful and appreciated.

Now that my mom is older (in her eighties), she can't stay as busy as she'd like.  She just doesn't have the physical stamina or mobility to be on the go non-stop.  And so her covert NPD traits have pretty much taken over.  It's rare that any of her children can enjoy our time with her.  Sometimes, there is a little fun.  For example, my sister came into town for mom's birthday and we all went out to lunch and truly had a good time.  Of course, it didn't hurt that mom was the center of attention and the reason that sis had come into town.  But it was still a nice few hours.

My MIL is also in her eighties and, unfortunately, she is in memory care.  Her HPD traits are still there, although changing as her dementia gets worse.  It is sad to someone who used to be soooooo vain refuse to shower or get her hair done.  But even with her dementia, it's still all about her.  And she still creates drama wherever she goes.  It's startling to see this quiet, reclusive woman, who seems so helpless, suddenly get her claws back out and make a cutting comment.  Whatever flimsy filter she used to have is now completely gone.  She will meanly point out that you've gained a few pounds or your latest haircut looks bad.  The HPD, and all its underlying insecurity, is still there, that's for sure.

Not sure if I answered your question - I guess I think NPD traits run along a continuum.  They ebb and flow, sometimes within the same day and sometimes over long stretches of time.  And part of the reason people are attracted to narcissists is that they have the capacity to be incredibly charming, and so it's no surprise that they will occasionally turn their charm on us.

[NarcKiddo]

What Sneezy said.

Generally speaking nobody is 100% good or bad. Even if a PD is 99% bad, that still leaves the 1% to show itself occasionally.

I think they are capable of niceness (Sneezy has already pointed out the charm they tend to have in bucketloads) and I think sometimes they do the best they can. Maybe they always do the best they can, but it's generally just not very good!

The problem for us is the slot machine effect, as I think of it. My mother could (and can) be really super fun to be around. When she was, it was like hitting the jackpot on the slots. And then you know it is possible to hit the jackpot and you crave it. So you keep playing. And sometimes you get little rewards along the way, which are quite nice, and remind just how utterly wonderful the jackpot is.  So you keep playing because you know there is a jackpot in there somewhere. And the longer you play, the closer you think the jackpot must be. This is how gamblers get addicted and this is how we can get conditioned to supplying a PD.

Once you realise that in the case of a PD the jackpot they dole out from time to time is designed to keep you under their thumb it becomes easier to manage and resist. You can't deal with a problem if you don't know what it is. If you are able to enjoy the jackpot without becoming hopelessly addicted to the process, then enjoy it. Just don't see it as a sign of any meaningful change, because it most likely is not.

[Hazy111]

Manipulation to maintain supply and control.

[moglow]

Sunshine, for years [before I'd even heard of personality disorders] I thought my mother had multiple personalities. She could and did flip on and of just that abruptly, as if the "other" from a moment before didn't even exist. There was rarely any overt warning, we just learned over time that certain things - like questions she didn't want to answer or where she might feel insulted in some way - were guaranteed to set her off. Minor things would send her flying and you truly didn't know where she'd land or how long it might take. Then she'd act like "that" never happened and all was right with her world. That edge though, it stayed with her. Always seemed to feel like we were tippy toeing across broken glass, hoping for minor cuts rather than a full on bleed.

The problem for us is the slot machine effect, as I think of it. My mother could (and can) be really super fun to be around. When she was, it was like hitting the jackpot on the slots. And then you know it is possible to hit the jackpot and you crave it. So you keep playing. And sometimes you get little rewards along the way, which are quite nice, and remind just how utterly wonderful the jackpot is.  So you keep playing because you know there is a jackpot in there somewhere. And the longer you play, the closer you think the jackpot must be. This is how gamblers get addicted and this is how we can get conditioned to supplying a PD.

This speaks to me. The mentality that if I hung in there just a little longer, got her through yet another "crisis" and listened her off some imaginary ledge of her own making, that I could somehow read her mind and imagine what she might like or want ... they were all coins in a bottomless slot machine. Because I always played out and I'd get not the jackpot of Good Mother but the Joker who baldfaced lied and laughed about my eventual confusion and disappointment.

I don't believe anyone "comes out of it" even temporarily. It's part and parcel of the personality they've developed, the deeply disordered thinking and behavior. No one has all good or all bad days, whether personality disordered or not. It's those good days, those moments of fun or even decent that keep us locked in. Seriously, if the PDs we speak of were all bad, we wouldn't have hung in there as long as we did/have. We keep feeding that slot machine, banking on imaginary odds that the good will at least stick around a little longer.

[easterncappy]

I mean, Hollywood villains pretty much only exist on TV. Like, the ones where they're always rubbing their hands together and cackling and plotting evil things, with no redeeming qualities to them whatsoever. Whether it's manipulation or genuine, they are sometimes nice. Everyone, including those of us who are posting here, have good and bad personality traits. The difference is the willingness to accept that there's a problem and work on it. There are people on here whose parents took them on fun family vacations and occasionally molested them. There are people on here whose parents both bought them their favorite toys and beat them bloody for making simple mistakes. There are people on here whose parents went above and beyond to support their hobbies but also drunkenly hurled insults at them every weekend. It's not black and white.

I do disagree that it's always for manipulative reasons. I think they're just not all bad all the time, but sometimes manipulate too. For example, my mom did care for me when I was sick as a child, probably genuinely. But she also did try to manipulate me into keeping a "close" relationship by buying things when I was on my way out. Sometimes she'd hear my problems in what felt like a genuinely supportive way... and other times I could tell she was prying for gossip material. She's human. There are multiple sides to her. The bad sides are not my problem to deal with, but I do miss the good sides a lot.

I think that we need to recognize that parents with PD aren't cartoon villains. No one tells people who left an abusive partner "but there were good times, too!" - because duh, of course there were. I feel like people understand how abuse works a lot better when it's in a romantic context and not a familial one. The logic goes right out the window because somehow the Polly Pocket under the Christmas tree or the time they made us chicken soup when we were sick is supposed to cancel out getting beaten with an extension cord for spilling water... yet we'd never say that to a person who endured this in a romantic context. Pretty much everyone recognizes it's purely sick to tell a person to stay with an abusive partner because "he takes you out to nice places for dinner sometimes".

It's not good for you to create this mental picture of how a PD person is always going to be bad. It's a form of self-sabotage, because when it's time to leave or set boundaries, you'll guilt trip yourself (or let them guilt trip you) about the "good times". There are "good times" with every single human being ever, so what? You can find someone to have those "good times" with who also doesn't come with a risk of abuse. My mom's occasional nice moments were just not worth walking on eggshells for the rest of my life... and that's fine.

[Sneezy]

I do disagree that it's always for manipulative reasons. I think they're just not all bad all the time, but sometimes manipulate too.

I think you are right about this.   A wise therapist told me that my mom is completely driven by her anxiety.  If this is the case, then it seems logical that mom's anxiety levels will go up and down.  Maybe when she's not feeling quite so anxious, her "good behavior" is more genuine.  On the other hand, if she is feeling extremely anxious, then her good behavior may be for manipulative reasons.  And since I don't know exactly what her anxiety level is at any moment in time, I just keep feeding coins into the slot machine, which is such a good way to think about it.  It's sad that even when our parents are acting pleasant, we are on edge, waiting for the outbursts, crying, yelling, despair, etc. to start up again.

Trying to figure out the "why" behind PD behavior is very interesting, isn't it?  I really wish there was more research (by that I mean accessible research that lay people could understand) that could explain why our PD parents do the things they do.  But in the end, even if we could fully understand them, it doesn't mean we can change them.  All we can do is keep our medium chill set to chilly and keep our boundaries up. 

[easterncappy]

I do disagree that it's always for manipulative reasons. I think they're just not all bad all the time, but sometimes manipulate too.

I think you are right about this.   A wise therapist told me that my mom is completely driven by her anxiety.  If this is the case, then it seems logical that mom's anxiety levels will go up and down.  Maybe when she's not feeling quite so anxious, her "good behavior" is more genuine.  On the other hand, if she is feeling extremely anxious, then her good behavior may be for manipulative reasons.  And since I don't know exactly what her anxiety level is at any moment in time, I just keep feeding coins into the slot machine, which is such a good way to think about it.  It's sad that even when our parents are acting pleasant, we are on edge, waiting for the outbursts, crying, yelling, despair, etc. to start up again.

Trying to figure out the "why" behind PD behavior is very interesting, isn't it?  I really wish there was more research (by that I mean accessible research that lay people could understand) that could explain why our PD parents do the things they do.  But in the end, even if we could fully understand them, it doesn't mean we can change them.  All we can do is keep our medium chill set to chilly and keep our boundaries up. 

The problem is that their whole worldview is disordered. A personality disorder isn't just some quirky behaviors in an otherwise normal person. Whether my mom accepts it or not (and of course she doesn't), what was done to me as a child would land both of them in prison for decades. But even I thought everything was normal because of how it was treated as it was happening. Not too long ago, my mom said "everyone lies, but when I do it, I get in trouble, it's not fair!" (context: an outrageous lie she told to get off work didn't go as planned because no one believed her) - a pretty lighthearted example of a disordered worldview compared to other things she thinks are normal. She rolled her eyes when I told her that most people don't lie about things like this, and she's explicitly told me that "people only say things like that so they look better in front of others" when I've told her "no, what you're doing isn't normal or acceptable" many times in the past. It's hard to accept that there's a problem when you believe that the problem is something that's routine practice in every person's life ever.

That's why you can't figure out a "why". You literally don't see eye to eye on anything that matters. It's the same reason why you pretty much never see any abusers admit that they're abusive. No one is like "yeah, I love abusing my wife", instead they think that punching someone in the mouth is a normal and healthy reaction to their dinner being burnt on accident. Or, at most, that it's a minor offense that can totally be fixed and forgotten with flowers. Whereas in reality, where the rest of us live, that's a thing people go to prison for a very long time for and then they're on special lists for the rest of their lives.

But, I think that everyone short of actual diagnosed psychopaths is capable of doing good things. Maybe not very often, but they're certainly capable of it. I don't really think it's that noteworthy when they occasionally do good things, though. I have to tell myself "so what?" a lot when I remember nice things my mom has done for me. She's doing a lot more now that she realizes things are coming to an end, which I don't think is uniquely manipulative, I think she is panicking and doesn't know how to deal with it. Like your mom, mine's very anxious and behaves very strangely when her anxiety is high. But "so what?" to all of the nice things she's doing - this woman is the reason I'll probably never have a normal life, buying me things or being "extra nice" isn't going to give me back my formative years through my early 20's so I can instead grow up in a normal family.

[Cat of the Canals]

For both my mom and my MIL, they were happiest when they were very busy and (of course) the center of attention. 

I second this and add that my PDmom and PDmil need a sense of control. The second they perceive they are not getting something they want, then out come the tantrums and the pouting.

I think this "seeming normal part of the time" thing is common with PDs. Perhaps even the norm. And it's part of the reason we end up putting up with their behavior for so long: we end up self-gaslighting by telling ourselves "they aren't SO bad." If they were nasty and abusive 100% of the time, it'd be a lot easier to walk away.