PDs and money (they're cheap and cunning!)

[mary_poppins]

Hi all.

I hope my title doesn't violate the rules of the forum.

I just wanted to express my sadness regarding my parents' cheapness and how they raised me in regards to money. First of all, I never got a significant money gift from them in my entire life.

Not even when I went to college and needed money for you know, life. I hear of other PDs who actually gave big money gifts (with strings attached, of course) but mine never, ever did that. They have money and that's because they never go anywhere, they don't travel, they don't go out to eat (I can't understand this at all) and they don't spend money on electronics or house renovation. They were always like that, 90% of their time was spent at home or work.

Now, any kind of money that was gifted to my family, my mother took it and put it away for herself. She even went as far as to steal my school allowance (I am still not over that and I don't think I ever will), as a result I didn't have money to buy lunch at school, celebrate my birthday at school or go out with my then friends. She'd gave me like a dollar or so each day to buy something. But you couldn't buy much with that money (I am sure she knew that and got off of the feeling of making me feel powerless and small).

While all the kids at school celebrated their birthdays in class by buying something for the whole class (mostly food), I never got to do that because I didn't feel as if I was worthy, plus I didn't have money. I remember I didn't have the courage to ask for money from my parents. Urgh, this makes me so angry.

Anyway, lately I have realized how incredibly cheap and cunning both my parents are in regards to money. Again, they both earn an income but don't spend it on stuff, except medicine since they're both sick with minor/medium illnesses like diabetes or high blood pressure. Thus, they have enough money and I never even seen them offer financial help to me or my brothers (or to a relative-we have a poor relative who livse in the countryside; what they do instead of helping this person financially is to make fun of him and say "Ha ha, he's so poor, he's a bum, he's an alcoholic, he's a loser..'etc They go as far as to call this relative up (he lives in the countryside) and ask him if they can come over to his house and use his kitchen to make smoked pork meats and fat (it's a tradition)).

Anyway, they do this to him often and of course, after they use his kitchen and make their meats, they probably don't even give him anything and..after that, they again bash him saying how f## poor and a bastard he is. I feel sorry for this relative (my mother's brother) because he doesn't know how horribly smeared he is to the entire family. 

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that, because of their cheapness and greed and the way they use people in general, I have developed an aversion to money in general. All my life I struggled to accept the fact that I am worthy of being paid a good income for the jobs I do and, as a result, I took bad jobs with low pay.

Atm, I am still without a job and since I've realized how horribly I feel about money in general, I wanted to see if there is a connection between my feelings for money and lack of financial resources. And there is!

Has anybody here went through the same thing? And have you actually managed to break those horrible money beliefs and build new ones?

I assume there would be a lot of psychological work to be done in regards to money but to also the trauma of narcissistic abuse.

[Spring Butterfly]

Has anybody here went through the same thing? And have you actually managed to break those horrible money beliefs and build new ones?

Yes my parents did both - gift money with the string attached that the gift comes with compliance. In other words, I saw no gifts of any sort when I chose to make my own choices and live my life. If I spent time with them and did *everything* they desired I received gifts.

How I overcame all of it? It's their money, they owe nothing to me once I reach adulthood. At the same time children are obedient. Adult offspring show honor but obedience is not required. Therefore, I live my own life in a way that I don't need their money. It's a good and healthy boundary that money belongs to an individual to do as they please. No one can judge or tell me how to spend my money. The same is true in reverse. I know where I end and others begin thanks to this forum.

I'm not sure that's the answer you're seeking but that it what worked for me. Not easy. Not even a little bit.

[justducky]

My path has been similar to Spring Butterfly's. uPD father was highly anxious about money. As his behaviors worsened he'd hoard it (not that there was much--lower middle-class) and refuse to maintain the house, which of course only leads to more expenses later when things break.

As I pulled away and went LC, then VLC, they tried to manipulate me with money but I knew there were strings attached. There was a weird dance happening with my sister and mother being codependent and her giving my sister money, then my mother insisting on giving me money for it to be "fair." It was really warped. For a while I'd mark letters "return to sender" so the post office would send them back. That ticked them off. Oh well.

Eventually the money wars stopped, then uPD father died, then things really went to hell.

It took me a long time to learn to drop the rope and not engage at all with the dysfunctional behavior. That includes not marking letters "return to sender." I could accept the money or not. My choice, as it was their choice to send money.

When a family has unmet needs, money becomes a minefield.

Another thing I've worked hard on is unlearning the avoidance and anxiety I have with money. It's 100% due to uPD father's awful behavior about anything money-related. No matter the cause, it's up to me to learn better behaviors, and I have. It's a work in progress.

mary_poppins, it's good that you see the dysfunction for what it is. I hope you're able to drop the rope some. It's difficult. Keep taking care of you. 

[Liketheducks]

I had the opposite side of the coin in my family.   My dysfunctional parents dysfunction also included being not very good with money.   Both came from well off families and had a sense of entitlement around money from their family.    They helped quite a bit.     After both sets of grandparents stopped enabling, things got really rough.   We were homeless for awhile while I was a teenager.   For some time, I made more money in an after school fast food job than both parents put together.   I was buying the groceries.   

That being said, they also had some weird ideas that if you had enough money you were somehow morally corrupt in some way.   It took me years to get to a place where I felt comfortable treating myself to anything nice - particularly if someone else in my FOO "needed" something.    Their expectation was always that I would sacrifice what I had to help them because "I could".     I still cringe a when/if mom mentions something about a car I recently bought.....when she drives one much older.   Or a vacation.   There is always some snarky.... "must be nice" comment.      Never that they're proud or happy for me.....just that I'm not doing enough with my money to make their lives easier.   

[Starboard Song]

This is not something I've dealth with, but I've seen it in a friend. She responded the opposite of you, oddly: she strived every second to never need to ask for anything ever again. Asking in any way for assistance feels like ugly begging to her, because of that background of hostile gifts. So she doesn't ask: she goes out and gets for herself and organizes her life around never again having a need.

This is a great example of how the same trauma can play out differently for all of us. And each response is real and legit, and has to somehow be healed from or made into a positive. I hope some more comments come in to help you find your way.

Also, I gotta say, when justducky and liketheducks comment back-to-back, it makes me very happy.

Starboard Duck

[justducky]

Also, I gotta say, when justducky and liketheducks comment back-to-back, it makes me very happy.

Starboard Duck

  <---- pretend that's a duck

[Call Me Cordelia]

"Another thing I've worked hard on is unlearning the avoidance and anxiety I have with money. It's 100% due to uPD father's awful behavior about anything money-related. No matter the cause, it's up to me to learn better behaviors, and I have. It's a work in progress."

I'm so glad! But HOW ducky??!? I need details!

I too have anxiety about spending money. Not about having enough, curiously, but I feel bad spending it on myself or things that are nicer than bare minimum needs. We're doing some big house projects this summer and oh my who the hell do I think I AM?!?

It's obvious where that comes from... My uPD father deliberately spent all our money so that we were always living paycheck to paycheck and keeping my mother feeling the need to work several low-paying jobs that kept her "available" for him, despite the fact that he was a white-collar professional who made plenty. Plenty to support his luxury habits, anyway. Never enough for what I wanted, similar to you, Mary Poppins. They would steal from my teenage wages to pay their bills, too. I still struggle with feeling I deserve any clothing not from a thrift store, makeup... Even though my DH encourages me to go for a mani-pedi even every now and again, I just can't even enjoy these things because it's such a dang waste of money.

[justducky]

I too have anxiety about spending money. Not about having enough, curiously, but I feel bad spending it on myself or things that are nicer than bare minimum needs. We're doing some big house projects this summer and oh my who the hell do I think I AM?!?

Oh, I hear you. I've got some of that too.

My anxiety and avoidance with money has lessened a lot thanks to work with a therapist and continued work on my own. My husband has been helpful as well by modeling positive, practical spending habits.

My challenge was to learn to sit with the uncomfortable emotions--mostly fear--prompted when I had to do anything more than pay routine bills. For a long time I was able to live within my means by not spending much on luxuries. If I wanted something, I'd put off buying it. Nine times out of ten I wouldn't buy it. It's not the worst strategy, but it does keep one stuck in their present circumstances.

Then the bottom fell out of my life when a long-term relationship ended badly and the guy tried to control me with money. Neither of us had wanted to marry for our own reasons. He was a trust-fund baby; neither of us knew the extent of which until his uPD mother died unexpectedly. He was VLC with her.

Less than a year after she'd died he wanted out. In fairness, the relationship wasn't working and I had a lot of work to do on my own issues, but he'll never have to worry about money for the rest of his life. Meanwhile, I was scrambling to keep a fledgling freelance career going, selling the house I could no longer afford, etc. I cut him out of my life.

Until all of that happened I'd had little concept of cash flow. When you're living paycheck to paycheck cash flow is very simple. But if you're better established and able to save some, cash flow is very useful. I needed to learn to plan ahead in a realistic manner and not assume everything would go to hell.

Later I was diagnosed with PTSD. One symptom of that is "sense of a foreshortened future". I had that in spades. I was unable to make long-term plans. Imagining the future was like peering into fog. I assumed that no matter what I did it would end in failure. The universe would see to it. I have no religious faith, so as far as I'm concerned there is no higher power to appeal to. With my FOO this makes perfect sense. Thanks to undiagnosed and untreated mental illness, alcoholism, and codependency they're locked into a bleak future. I opted out but had little idea of how to live otherwise.

The solution was learning to sit with and fully feel the uncomfortable emotions, reality testing, and lots of little experiments. With my therapist's guidance I dipped my toe into unfamiliar waters again and again. No matter how miserable or terrified I felt, those feelings never killed me. After some time they'd dissipate and I could think more clearly. I was learning new skills.

I learned to recognize when I was catastrophising. I learned to examine the possible consequences of spending choices without expecting disaster. Most importantly, when something worked out, I stopped, noticed it, and celebrated it. Hope is not necessarily foolish!

Broadly speaking that's the work I've been doing. I still have bad days. They're much fewer and far between, though.

I hope this is helpful to some of you!

[NarcKiddo]

My uNPD mother has never been cheap in the way you describe, although she is very judgmental of people who spend their own money in ways she considers extravagant. A neighbour came into quite a lot of money and chose to buy her sons expensive cars. My mother was very disapproving of that - she herself has a decent but cheap vehicle and said "If such a vehicle is good enough for me it is good enough for them".

She is very aware of the power of money, though, and gifts can be full of strings. I discovered early on that I can refuse to accept the strings, though. My first big love affair was with a wholly unsuitable man (with all kinds of PDs) and we had a whirlwind romance which involved spending all of my savings and then running up debts in my name. I was 18 but my bank account was at the same bank as my parents and the bank manager saw fit to tell them about my debts. So they found a way to have the man arrested, took me abroad to where they were living at the time and paid off my debts. All the while my mother told me they were saving me from "debtor's prison" (which I knew does not exist) and saving me from this awful man. That was my first great moment of revelation. I should have been grateful for being got out of debt and saved, but I was not in the least bit grateful. I said I was, but I realised they were doing it to save face for them. I had not asked to be saved. In fact I was still in love with the man and we later married. I ended our relationship on my terms, not on my mother's.

I have never asked for money from my parents as an adult. If they give it freely I accept it. If they try to attach strings I refuse it. They still do some really weird things, though. For a big wedding anniversary they gave me some expensive jewellery but gave my husband nothing whatsoever.  My husband didn't care but it bugged the hell out of me.

I do not discuss my financial situation with my parents. My sister is in some difficulties and although I don't believe she has ever actually asked for money she discusses her situation with my mother and then gets given money and gets stuck with obligations. My mother used to ask intrusive questions about our finances and I would give her non-answers.

[donutmoonpanda]

I'm NC with both parents. They're divorced and they're a mixed bag. Dad has obscene inherited wealth and rarely spends any money. Mother is poor and never had a dollar for longer than a day.

I myself am an underpaid overachiever. I have several advanced degrees and never made much money. I've held managing positions at several large companies and yet I've never made as much as my husband made at his first job right out of college. He has some of the same qualifications as me, fewer certifications, fewer degrees. I mean, part of me has to chalk this up to being a woman, and I'm part of an entire generation that is quite financially precarious in middle age despite those being "peak earning years." But I'm not a go-getter. I'm not outgoing. My personality isn't a good match for the c-suite, and that's because I grew up with my parents. I am exactly the person they cultivated me to be. Afraid of making mistakes or taking risks, afraid of the spotlight, so detail-oriented I clean up behind other people and ask for nothing in return -- I'm the unsung backbone of the operation just like I was in my family. I can take the harshest criticism, I never require praise or recognition (I was raised on fumes), and don't know what I'm worth.

Money to me is just a means to an end. I only ever wanted enough money to escape my FOO (who used money as power and control). I wish I made more money; I want to feel like I'm pulling my own weight in my marriage. I'm embarrassed that my peers' careers have a progression while mine stagnates. But I don't aspire to be rich. I don't want fancy things. I just want to stand on my own two feet. Honestly, I think my parents want me to be destitute so I'll reestablish contact with them. If they could push a button and blow up everything I've attained, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

I'm healing. I'm self-improving. I'm learning to stop comparing myself to other people all the time and worrying about what others think of me. But unless we can turn back the clock a couple of decades, I'm not sure what difference it would make if I suddenly developed some leadership qualities. The way I am has already taken my career in a different direction than that. I'm many removes away from "leveling up."

[DM178]

Hi Mary Poppins,

thank you for sharing your journey and asking these questions. It seems like many of us have family histories with our BPD parents using money to manipulate us. & we experienced it thru a wide range of behaviours, ranging from extreme withholding (cheapness, miserly) to giving it away as a means of control/manipulation.

It does impact how we spend, earn, save, and share money...and also judge those who do have it / do not have it.....in my family, it's been a tremendous source of manipulation...and cruelty.....my parents are on the miserly side of it, and very sparingly give it out to reward those that they can get something from (time, energy, vacations, etc)....very very sad....and really tough to process when I observe how generous other family systems are, in a healthy way.

It's also a tremendous source of judgement in my family by my parents....as in those who have it and those who do not..which has slowly but surely divided up some family members....I have dealt with my own dysfunction with money, finding myself feeling very guilty about earning it, which then leads into recklessness with how I spend and (not) save..it's as if I don't feel I deserve it, and am actually ashamed about my ability to earn it....

I hope you take comfort that what you are experiencing is unfortunately very typical....sad....and one that "costs" us in so many ways....please take good care of yourself.

[SaltwareS]

They ridiculed me for not being good with money. When I finally reached financially independence they first excluded me then wedged back into my life and sabotaged me. They're more mellow now but the damage has been done.

[xredshoesx]

my uPD biological mother had no concept of money
her also most likely disordered parents were miserly

when i was getting married i ran a credit check and found that my mother had opened multiple credit cards in my name/ SSN that her parents paid off.  my mother also had a QVC ordering habit.  meanwhile my grandpa sold me some used tires for a 25 year old car (which was one of the last contacts i had with them tbh) and i had to pay rent so i would 'know how to budget'

money was for sure used to manipulate and control in the household.

i still don't like any kind of gift bc from my childhood i was taught that all gifts have strings attached.

[Sojourner17]

Money has always been a struggle for me. With my parents it's as if money just slips through their fingers .  They have borrowed from relatives quite frequently.  My parents recently sold a property.  My mom has been saying for months that when the deal went through she was going to give me and my other sister money because she gave our youngest sister money and she wants it to be "fair".  She said the same thing two years ago but that time it was just me who was going to get some money as they had helped out my youngest sister a lot financially and gave my middle sister a vehicle.  All in the name of making things "fair". 
Mom just texted me yesterday saying that she decided to not send me the full amount all at once as she has scrimped and saved all her life and though she could now give me the full amount she thinks it would be nicer to give it in smaller chunks and "surprise" me every once in a while.  She then asked if that was ok. 

I told her it was ok, it was her money and she could give it out as she saw fit. 
I've been battling with a root of bitterness though.  Right from the start when she first mentioned sending me money I've felt a sense of dread.  This last time I had started dreaming of what I could do with it once she sent it.  It's not a lot of money yet still substantial in that I could have made headway in some financial goals.  Now it's as if the rug has been pulled. 
It's a hard thing to deal with when the proverbial carrot is dangled and then pulled away.  All due to her own insecurities.  It's not given with a generous spirit or heart.  It would have been better to not even know what she was intending or thinking of doing. 

I think I responded the correct way though.  After all it IS her money to go with it as she sees fit. 
Only thing is, now the obligatory part of it all is like a weight on me and somehow I have to figure out a way to shake that off.

It's interesting (to me) to think of it as a generational curse that needs to be broken in my life so that it doesn't continue in to our children.  I'm grateful for my husband who is actually pretty good with money and always seems to make headway even with life's setbacks.

The hardest thing for me is the constant battle against bitterness or feelings of resentment toward my parents.  I've started to resolve to not ruminate in those feelings or thoughts too long.  Letting bitterness take hold never helps.

[easterncappy]

Mine are the opposite. Lots of gifts with strings attached, often prefaced with "I'm not doing this to buy your affection or anything like that", which means she was doing it to buy my affection. When I finally opened up to my mom about my dad abusing me (I thought she didn't know - what a fool I was), she briefly sympathized and then it turned into "so what you're saying is that he's not good enough for you, but his money is?" as if him merely being employed and paying bills meant that I was indebted to him and he could do anything he wished to me and I wouldn't have a right to complain or question it ever. When I was in my early 20's, they chipped in quite a bit for college expenses - which made me feel obligated to keep living with them (I was more than willing to take out the loans to go live in a dorm just to get away from them), as well making me feel obligated to do random inappropriate things for them (I spent my 5 years of college driving my mom to and from work, so I could never have an internship or take a lot of classes).

When things got really tough, I asked my mom why she doesn't just leave my dad... he's not faithful to her, they don't even like each other, he abused me terribly, etc. and her responses kept going between "normal couples do that, you're a fool if you think Hollywood marriages exist, it wasn't that bad, all men are like that" and "I don't want to have to work full-time and be on welfare, plus don't you want nice Christmas gifts?". They are both extremely materialistic people. My mom basically admitted her punk rock wardrobe bought with my dad's paycheck was worth my safety and dignity, and that I was supposed to look the other way at being abused because I got "nice things" for Christmas. Probably the only time my dad ever apologized to me is when he lost money betting on an iPad on one of those weird early 2010's scam betting websites, he straight up cried because "he just wanted nice things for me" - I never expressed desire to own an iPad and I still haven't gotten an apology for the sexual, psychological, and physical abuse, but okay. The closest I've gotten to admission of wrongdoing or an apology from either of them is "we didn't have enough money to get you everything you wanted as a kid" (all I wanted as a kid was like, toy cars and drawing supplies, I was never one to ask for random expensive things).

They also have an incredibly childish grasp of money. When I say "we're not doing well financially", it means something like "unexpected house repairs came up and we have $300 to last us the next two weeks". For my parents... it's different. We had the same Amazon account for a while, and it was really funny seeing my mom complain about their financial situation the same week she'd buy a $70 lamp, a $500 leather jacket, etc. They also think getting everything "on payment" is a solution to everything ever. They think me and my husband are stupid because we don't get all new appliances "on payment" or because we'd rather fix up an old car than take out a loan for a new one. They think my husband is a bad man and a bad provider because we live in an older house and he should have "bought a brand new house instead of making me live in that dump" (worth noting that my parents have never owned a house and likely never will because they are a walking red flag for banks). I used to let them get in my head about this and admittedly I was mean to my husband about the house, too, until I took a step back and realized my mom was putting stupid, unrealistic, and unkind thoughts into my head... there was a lot of apologizing on my behalf. Fleas are real.

Needless to say, I've always envied people who could go to their parents for financial advice... I'm the one that frequently has to say "that's not how that works, that's a terrible idea, the bank won't let you do that, what are you doing". Like, my parents proposed a scheme to buy a house: They would get their friend who owns a business to make fake 1099s stating that they made a lot of money in the past couple of years (illegal) and they would lie to the bank about living in another country during employment gaps (illegal and wouldn't work). They expected me to go along with this and help them come up with excuses to tell the lender. Their other idea was that I would take out a loan in my name and they'd give me money for the payments every month - they got really angry when I said "heeeeeeell no" to this, even years ago when I had no backbone.

[easterncappy]

my uPD biological mother had no concept of money
her also most likely disordered parents were miserly

when i was getting married i ran a credit check and found that my mother had opened multiple credit cards in my name/ SSN that her parents paid off.  my mother also had a QVC ordering habit.  meanwhile my grandpa sold me some used tires for a 25 year old car (which was one of the last contacts i had with them tbh) and i had to pay rent so i would 'know how to budget'

money was for sure used to manipulate and control in the household.

i still don't like any kind of gift bc from my childhood i was taught that all gifts have strings attached.

I've gone as far as never wanting gifts ever and I'm debating if Christmas and other gift giving holidays will ever make a debut in our household. My parents had all of their utilities in my name and expected me to take a mortgage out for them... luckily (for them) they never committed identity theft on me because at this point in my life, I'd spam call the FBI, CIA, local police, sheriff, etc. about it the second I found out. 

[JustKathy]

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that, because of their cheapness and greed and the way they use people in general, I have developed an aversion to money in general. All my life I struggled to accept the fact that I am worthy of being paid a good income for the jobs I do and, as a result, I took bad jobs with low pay.

My Nmother used money as a way of teaching me that I had no value. She spent a fortune on my GC brother... expensive Christmas gifts, toys, private schools, and when he turned 18, college and nice cars (and when he crashed one, they'd just buy him another). I wore clothes from the bargain rack and was bullied in school over it. Christmas gifts also came from the dollar store. My allowance was minimal and I often used it to buy a better lunch at school. When I left home at eighteen, I was homeless for a while before finally ending up in a run-down studio apartment. My enabling father would come by to visit but would never give me money for food because "your mother says you have to learn your lesson." She had such a hold on him that he was afraid to slip me a $20 bill because all heck would break loose if she found out.

Subsequently, I believed I wasn't worthy of having money or nice things. When I went on job interviews I would never try to negotiate a salary and would take whatever was offered me. At one point I rose to the executive level and accepted a salary that was only slightly above minimum wage. I was okay with it because of my upbringing. I believed I wasn't worthy of the job I had and should feel lucky for any salary I was offered.

I'm retired now and am doing well for myself, financially speaking. My husband and I made some good real estate investments so I live comfortably, but still don't feel that I deserve it. I'm not sure that I ever will. When I get extra money I'm more inclined to donate it than to buy something nice for myself. Maybe that's the positive side of this whole thing. I have a lot of empathy for people who are in bad situations by no fault of their own so give back whenever I can. My mother would have sooner chewed broken glass than given a dime to a homeless person. I became the complete opposite, which I imagine is often the case. Their efforts to tear us down make us better people.