The faux-est of fauxpologies

[samtosha]

I had posted a few months ago about how uNM sent a flying monkey message through GC brother that she wanted to "clear the air" with me. It finally happened, as much as I didn't want it to- and needless to say, the air is not cleared. However, I feel strangely validated by the absolute absence of validation from her.  I'm not wrong about her, not at all.

I never hear from her, never ever. Occasionally I send a little email checking in because she lives alone and is 84. I sent such a note and immediately got the reply that she still wanted to talk to me alone. Intense demandingness, which is how she has always gotten her way. I had been avoiding this for months. I wrote back that I didn't want to have a serious conversation but to let us know if she needed anything and we'd try to help.

To help you all follow along, I'm going to put numbers next to the red flags and annoying invalidations.

1. She says, "Samtosha, I'm not going to bite you. I feel there's a chasm growing between us." See how she makes me wrong and ignores my wishes? And is kind of snarky? Did I say anything about being worried about what she was going to say?

2. I say, I don't want to have the conversation because it will involve me saying some difficult things that I know you don't want to hear and I don't see it going very well. Rolling right over that, I get back "You're wrong! I want to apologize!" See how she makes me wrong again? And ignores my wishes again? And what does she want to apologize for that she's failed to apologize for for the past 50 years or so?

So I decide, eff it, I'll do it. This stuff has been hanging over my head for years!  None of my attempts to express my feelings to those people ever worked before, I was consistently invalidated, but here she is saying she wants to apologize. Curiosity got the better of me. I spent some time preparing, reading here and elsewhere about how to spot insincere apologies from PDs and I was ready with my (very simplified) list of grievances.

3. uNM of course had no idea what she was apologizing for. She started off going back to my very early childhood to wallow in some waifish guilt about...bottle feeding me! Not standing up to my first grade teacher about something or other! She wanted to apologize for stuff that she's been fixated on forever (all had been mentioned before many times) but when I said, "it's OK, I'm not mad about that stuff," she was totally at a loss as to what my problem could be. Yes, mother, I'm pissed about not being breastfed. 

4. She was astonished (!) when I told her she'd always been hard on me since my teen years. Astonished! Whatever could I mean? I went through a lot of stuff. Many, many concrete examples. It was a relief to say it out loud, I have to say. And to be honest, her reaction shouldn't matter, right? I'm speaking my truth. But still...

5-1,000,000. She claimed almost total amnesia. Didn't remember hardly any of it! So obviously IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. How could she be wrong? Impossible! Even incidents where other people were there and could confirm, she denied. OR, if she did remember something, I was wrong to have the feelings about it that I did (like the way she took over planning my first wedding. Of course she HAD to! I wanted it in a field or a forest or something! Um, no, but she was impossible to argue with, had to have her own way, and I was just a prop for a big show she was putting on for herself. Whatever).

She is elderly and her memory isn't so great, and she loves to revise history, so I think part of it is that. But also, she can't face how horrible she and my late uNF were to their kids. The fauxpology was intended to get me back in line, and I don't think she expected to have to reckon with decades of her actual shitty behavior! Ha! As if!

Ultimately, this was helpful, so I'm glad I did it. I didn't think she was actually going to apologize, but the absolute lack of empathy and willingness to see my point of view AT ALL about basically my entire life experience with her as my mother has provided some much needed clarity. I'm still processing and I wish I'd kept more presence of mind towards the end - I really should have called her out on that wedding BS but I was quite drained by the whole thing by that point. 

My thinking is, I'm done. I told her we'd try to help in an emergency, but that our "relationship" was not going to get any better from here. I'm sure she'll forget that too in a few weeks. Sigh.

[samtosha]

It did really hurt and surprise me that these things - her general treatment of me and specific hurtful incidents - that loom so large in my psyche mean nothing to her. It was her normal way of interacting with me so why should any of it be memorable? That does hurt.

[Sneezy]

It did really hurt and surprise me that these things - her general treatment of me and specific hurtful incidents - that loom so large in my psyche mean nothing to her. It was her normal way of interacting with me so why should any of it be memorable? That does hurt.

I think you are correct that this is just your mom's normal way of reacting.  In her mind, she is justified to say and do whatever she needs or wants, without any regard for others.

My mom is in her eighties.  I have lost count of the times that I have told her how hurtful it is when she dumps all her bad feelings on me.  She will act like she has no idea what I'm talking about.  And so I have kept a few of her worst phone messages - the ones with the over the top sighs and drama and outright lies, all designed to dump on me and get my attention back to her and her miseries.  And I can play those messages to her, while sitting right next to her, and she can not understand why they upset me.  Her reaction is "but that's how I felt - can't I say how I feel?"

They don't get it.  Their brains work differently than ours do.  In their worldview, everything they say and do is perfectly acceptable because that is how they feel in the moment.  And yet, if we ever dared to say or do similar things, we would be the worst children ever.

It is 100% all about them.  How they think and feel and act, what they need and want, how they are treated, how much they suffer, and on and on and on.  I just don't think their brains are capable of considering how anyone else feels, not even their children.

[11JB68]

I tried a similar thing with my uPDm right before going NC
eF was there - I always THOUGHT he and I had a good relationship - in his defense he and everyone in the family are dependent/Co-Dependent/Terrified of her/whatever....
She was histrionic and difficult. At one point when I felt she was talking over me/not listening she dramatically got a roll of masking tape and put a piece across her mouth at  which point i started to walk out as I was NOT going to play those kind of games
I went with a written list (because i would get scared/timid around her and forget what I intended to say) -she made fun of that.
She was taken aback by anything I said etc. and looked at me and enF at which point enF looked at both of us, then at her and said "enM, you've done nothing wrong".  At which point I knew I was done, it was over, there was nothing further to be done.
Then her FM (my aunt) called me (a few weeks into NC?) and asked me "Why are you doing this to us"?
First of all - in my mind there was no 'US' - it was just her. The fact that they all got on board WITH HER was their choice not mine.
I tried to maintain contact with my grmother but uPDm intervened and made it about herself so that was impossible. (But I was doing something to them?)

[samtosha]

They don't get it.  Their brains work differently than ours do.  In their worldview, everything they say and do is perfectly acceptable because that is how they feel in the moment.  And yet, if we ever dared to say or do similar things, we would be the worst children ever.

It is 100% all about them.  How they think and feel and act, what they need and want, how they are treated, how much they suffer, and on and on and on.  I just don't think their brains are capable of considering how anyone else feels, not even their children.

This! She's always felt so entitled to say whatever she wants at any time, and has actually said so on more than one occasion. It really brought home to me just how incapable she is of considering my (anyone's) feelings. I knew it was going to be a gaslight-fest, but the extent of it was still a little surprising.

The good thing that has come out of this is that I can try now to let go of the last shreds of FOG. She really is that bad.

[samtosha]

11JB68, that sounds so stressful. My uNM tried some histrionics as well, but there was no-one to perform for except me so they failed.  And no, you weren't doing anything to them. I know the generally accepted advice is to "clearly state your boundaries" before going LC/NC, but I do think with PDs it just backfires. They don't do boundaries. I think it mortally offends them to be told how we feel about what they do to us.

[Cat of the Canals]

uNM of course had no idea what she was apologizing for. She started off going back to my very early childhood to wallow in some waifish guilt about...bottle feeding me! Not standing up to my first grade teacher about something or other! She wanted to apologize for stuff that she's been fixated on forever (all had been mentioned before many times) but when I said, "it's OK, I'm not mad about that stuff," she was totally at a loss as to what my problem could be. Yes, mother, I'm pissed about not being breastfed. 

My PDmil does this. Most recently, she apologized to my husband because she had a sudden memory of dancing in the kitchen with him when he was approximately 8yo, and she felt she probably had "forced" the dancing.  Naturally, he doesn't remember this incident at all. And of course, when he's attempted to bring up the physical abuse from his childhood, her response is, "I already apologized for that, and I've forgiven myself."   

I think the denial keeps them from actually getting anywhere NEAR the memories in which they truly caused harm. At the same time, if there's a rift, they can't help but fixate on WHY and end up clinging to these very mundane (and thus emotionally "safe") incidents instead of facing the harder truths.

[samtosha]

I think the denial keeps them from actually getting anywhere NEAR the memories in which they truly caused harm. At the same time, if there's a rift, they can't help but fixate on WHY and end up clinging to these very mundane (and thus emotionally "safe") incidents instead of facing the harder truths.

Yes, that sounds exactly right. For a while she had decided my DH was to blame for me never talking to her (he was controlling me so she couldn't, I guess). Then she must have moved on to incidents that were safer to think about, as you say. It makes me a little sad - she's pitiful! - but also angry. Denial is her dominant emotion at this point (along with self-pity) and she will do/say anything to defend it. 

[moglow]

I don't want to have the conversation because it will involve me saying some difficult things that I know you don't want to hear and I don't see it going very well. Rolling right over that, I get back "You're wrong! I want to apologize!" See how she makes me wrong again? And ignores my wishes again? And what does she want to apologize for that she's failed to apologize for for the past 50 years or so?

Me, oversimplifying things - so instead of just thinking it all the way through and coming up with a genuine apology, she steamrolls you. Again. Still missing the point. Fuck all, I had no idea AND DIDN'T CARE about being breastfed, have no need of that information!! It's nowhere in the realm of my stuff or anything that requires explanation. But no, let's go there. 

Mine liked to go with "we didn't know then what we know now!" Oh. So now you realize the harm caused by the way you treated us, continued on because that's what you knew, and still don't have the grace to just leave all that alone or even attempt to change your behavior towards us. You'd rather beat me over the head again with things I've asked repeatedly to just let go. Got it. Because that wasn't clear the last time you dredged that ditch.

And when all else fails, blame someone else outside the situation because clearly she isn't responsible, she's trying to kiss butt to get you to "straighten up" so you aren't responsible. Must be DH.

Lord have mercy on us all.

[samtosha]

Moglow, you have hit the nail on the head. And she definitely tried on the "we didn't know then what we know now" waify whinge!

I'm trying to have compassion for myself as I process that whole experience and not to beat myself up for getting sucked back into her worldview to some extent during it. I realized later that she successfully manipulated/gaslighted me quite a bit. It's so hard to hold the line and not fall into lifelong habits of mind. I'm waking up in the night thinking "I should have told her that feelings are never wrong!" and other absolutely true but absolutely pointless things to tell a PD person. Of course feelings aren't wrong, and of course she told me my feelings were wrong. Of. Course. And of course I tried to argue (JADE, JADE). SIgh. It's a process and it feels so hard and endless. Thanks for your support! 

[moglow]

I reread what you said about feelings never being wrong, but you know what? You tell her that and I guarandamntee she'll come back when you least expect it with "but you told me that feelings are never wrong so why are MY feelings wrong but yours aren't???" The problem isn't the feelings, mother - it's what you do with them, the way you express them. The demands that others fix your feelings and make it all better for you while you continue on unabated.

It IS hard, because it's what we know and what they taught us. So not only are we finding our voice but we're battling to unlearn and unhear that the old voice. I totally get that most of us do the best we can with what we have, but why were/are they so willing to settle for blaming others while we aren't even allowed to speak up for or explain ourselves? Why, when it had to be clear that wasn't working, didn't they step up and just talk with us, show some interest, be genuinely glad to hear from us?

Keep working on the non-JADE, gray rock thinking - Not just your external responses to her, but changing the way you think of and interact with her. Understand that she likely has limitations she's not willing to change. We know we can't control, can't change, can't cure what anyone else has going on, anymore than they can with us. By now we know pretty much what their responses [or rather, reactions] will be, but we keep beating that dead horse thinking this time it'll somehow be different. We know from experience that for all the "we need to clear the air and make things right between us" we're still only in control of OUR PART of the relationship and/or any interaction. They're still going to do with that whatever they choose. If they still refuse to change their behavior, that's totally on them.

I had to learn to depersonalize mommie dearest and her treatment of me. I had to dig way down and grasp that she's a bottomless pit of need and chaos and anger, and when she spews that stuff it's not one bit about me or anything I've actually said or done. It's her limitless disappointments and resentments talking. I've read and reread "The Four Agreements" [by Don Miguel Ruiz], instilling in myself that what other people do [or not] isn't about me. I can't fix their stuff but I'm doing myself a disservice if I don't keep doing all I can to fix my own.

Hope my ramble helped take the edge off for you this morning. You're so not alone.

[samtosha]

Thank you, Moglow! 

I am still basically gobsmacked. I had a ton of dread and anxiety going into that conversation and I knew one way or another it wouldn't go well for me. I figured I would fall into the old patterns and feel horrible and manipulated and I'd back down from my stance - but I didn't for the most part. I'm proud of myself for that!  But I wasn't prepared for the extent of her delusions (or pretend delusions).  Faced with the truth in a conversation that SHE initiated - as in, it wasn't me just having a snit about some nasty comment she made where she could criticize and shame me for having feelings/reactions instead of owning her behavior -  she just couldn't deal. Bring on the amnesia/revised history. There's always some obstacle to communication, always some denial, blame, DARVO-ing that's just impossible to deal with, but this was a new one on me!

I've always found her (and my late uNF too, he was another whole horror story) so difficult, impossible to argue with, an absolute monolith of rightness and disdain, criticism, correction, nitpicking...and neediness. I'm sorry but you can't crap all over someone their whole life and then expect them to care about your needs and feelings. Even at this moment, when she's old and full of self-pity and neediness, she couldn't soften her defenses in any way that would allow me to have my own personhood, point of view, LIVED EXPERIENCE. I didn't think going in that I expected any validation but probably subconsciously I wanted it. As much we recognize we'll never get it, that deep unconscious desire to be heard and understood and cared for by your mother just never goes away.

I don't know what the future holds but I'm definitely taking my VVVVLC and making it VVVVVLC. I so appreciate you and everyone else here - you all get it and it's wonderful.