Marriage Counseling- when to quit?

[SweetCaroline]

Hi. I've been doing marriage counseling w my husband of 16 years. 2nd round of marriage counseling, with 6 years in between with both of us doing individual therapy. First marriage counselor thought he had BPD, second marriage counselor thinks he is a vulnerable narcissist. Diagnosis doesn't matter to me, just the pattern of behavior that doesn't seem to be improving. (And can I add- I'm so grateful that we've seen two wonderful Marriage & Family Therapists who accurately see PD! I was not victim shamed or blamed for my anxiety!). When I started actually holding boundaries really well last year, things got really bad for our marriage. Gray/yellow rock, not engaging in fights (and everything is a fight), etc. helped but I personally am not happy in a superficial, emotionally distant marriage (no shade to others, I know sometimes people choose to stay for various reasons). So, we started round 2 of marriage counseling about 3 months ago. Unfortunately, his individual counselor of 6 years focus was dealing with how he manages my controlling nature. The referral from the first marriage counselor for PD and my individual counselor staffing with her, and she still bought his lies that he is a victim. My individual counselor stopped staffing with his therapist because his therapist would tell him things and then I'd get in trouble, so it was creating a dangerous situation for me. So, now that we started marriage counseling again, this therapist is holding boundaries firmly and I'm not enabling or protecting him like I did the first time. Plus, it seems that his individual counselor is now listening at least a little to our marriage counselor. So, it's only now that he is has the insight to acknowledge that his hatred of himself is a problem and getting in the way of us. But I'm having to hold boundaries like a f*ing boss and he is, of course, still trying to get around everything. He won't use the dialogue recommended, won't use the rules of fighting fair, won't look at why he doesn't like if I summarize or reflect his feelings, won't use a notebook for our planned talks, doesn't respect breaks so keeps coming back to argue, twists things around (like won't make a follow up appointment to talk because our time to talk is up), the discussion on boundaries really pissed him off (discussion on definitions), etc. So, basically, doesn't want to do anything recommended by the marriage counselor. The marriage counselor calls him out on these things in session, and I do the same at home when he doesn't use the tools she gives us. And I'm tired. And seeing very little in the way of change, despite his statements that he is trying his best and making changes (he upped his meds and is seeing his individual therapist weekly, coming home with occasional homework for me to do like hold his hand when he rages at me to soothe him or not have boundaries about small things- uh, that's a no. And I call BS. But I digress) . Besides that one insight, I don't see much. I can't control him or make him change, and I understand that. The boundaries I set about using the marriage counseling tools are for me and what I'm okay with/not okay with in a relationship. He doesn't want to divorce, and says I'm giving him ultimatums that I'll leave him if he doesn't do these things. I can't control his perception of that, either. I have been clear that I've made changes to myself, that I understand that changed us, that I can't go back to how things were because they were unhealthy for me, and that marriage counseling was my invitation for him to move forward with me on learning new ways of being together. But I'm questioning how long I do this. Seeing him with the marriage counselor is eye opening because he reacts to her similar to how he does w me (about 1/3 of the intensity, though), and I've never seen him react to others like he does to me. I can see him scoff & be contemptuous of my need for "I feel" & "I need" statements in tough conversations without having to be the one responding to him. I can hear him say "why do I have to make it easier for her?" when I say I need to take breaks from long arguments. See the way he tries to twist things that happened into a warped perception of himself as the victim. And see the therapist point out his lack of empathy for my health issues. And gain confidence watching her hold boundaries so I feel better doing it at home. So, I'm getting some good things from it. But it's certainly not the moving closer together and connection that I want from a marriage. So, how much longer do I do this? If someone w a PD is going to make effort, how does that look? I get progress will be slow and that radical acceptance will be a big part of this for me, but when do I know there will be no change? If I stop, it's because I'm done - so how the heck do I stop marriage counseling without him knowing a divorce is coming (I need time to get things in order)?

[notrightinthehead]

Gosh! I am so sorry! You must clearly love this man, putting in so much effort into what might turn out to be a black hole. It's so good that you have support from your therapist and the marriage counselor understands what she is dealing with and holds firm boundaries.
In my journey of healing the acceptance that there will be no change was the most bitter pill to swallow.  I had several relapses because I am basically an optimist and hope was difficult to kill. I had to abandon hope and force myself to believe that I cannot cure this man. In the end I grey rocked and medium chilled so well that he found another supply saving me from having to make the final decision myself.
You seem to be on a good path. Continue to work on your own healing and work on those aspects of yourself that made you vulnerable to a troubled person and made you stay when you realized what you were dealing with.
You might also want to start collecting information on how to go about it should you decide to leave. You could prepare for that, even if eventually you decide to stay. Just to have options.

[SonofThunder]

Hello SweetCaroline,

I see you are fairly new to the community here at Out of the FOG so a warm welcome.  I mirror notrightinthehead regarding your valiant effort thus far and also the focus on understanding and protecting yourself.  Im sorry you are experiencing this with your husband of 16 years.   

You wrote:

"If someone w a PD is going to make effort, how does that look? I get progress will be slow and that radical acceptance will be a big part of this for me, but when do I know there will be no change? "

My understanding is is that personality disorders are an underdevelopment in humans at a very young age and that although there is no cure for underdevelopment, sometimes meds and therapy of different types may assist some personality disordered persons to manage symptoms slightly better.  *See link below from the tabs above regarding my opinions and treatment mentioned here at Out of the FOG. 

https://outofthefog.website/treatment/

I have experiences with two uPD people (father and stbxwife) and my experiences with both taught me well that neither of them have the ability to self-reflect, but only react to what they receive.  Their reactions are always self focused on what they desire from me/others, but never truly self reflective on their own behaviors.  I wrote 'truly' because at times, the PD will verbally apologize or even make a future-faking promise to a non, but the PD is only making empty surface statements to reduce their situational tension that seems to have them on a supply-losing path, so they try to not lose that supply they have been receiving, by making (or even temporarily doing) certain actions or reactions.  The PD status quo behaviors very quickly return, because imo, there is no 'self' in the PD and they need to have others carry their emotions because they cannot carry their own.  Imo, their self is the self of the non.  I therefore, in my marriage, refused requests to attend counseling, as my experiences taught me, it was going to only be about me and changes I would be asked to make. I was a 'caretaker' husband (referencing Fjelstads wonderful book) for three decades so I was through with caretaking behaviors. 

You also wrote:

"If I stop, it's because I'm done - so how the heck do I stop marriage counseling without him knowing a divorce is coming (I need time to get things in order)?"

I again mirror notright in the comments about planning. What do you believe the resulting action/reaction would be from your husband, if he knew that counseling was over and a divorce was coming?   

SoT

[SweetCaroline]

notrightinthehead & SonofThunder,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm actually a long time lurker (like years), just a newer poster 

notrightinthehead, I'm realizing how strong the trauma bond was and the impact of my family. F was a neglectful narcissist & M has a mix of PD traits, so individual counseling has focused right now of connecting family of origin stuff to myself in my marriage. Honestly, now that I'm not anxiously panicking trying to please my husband, I realize how empty the marriage is. And I don't know that I actually love him. How sad is that? So, I get the idea of having to squash all hope in order to leave for good.

SonofThunder, I finally see the future faking for what it is, especially in the area of having kids which he kept moving the goal post (maybe a blessing in disguise, making it easier to leave and go no contact if I do). And while I occasionally see a glimmer of insight, it seems he can't move it into the space of true self-reflection and it's impact on others (including me). I definitely worry because the pattern was he stopped all effort after the first round of marriage counseling, so I wonder if the little bits I'm getting are also because I'm firm on if there isn't change then I'm gone. If we stop marriage counseling because he "improves", I don't trust that the changes will stay. So, is the little glimpses of insight just another form of future faking?

I know I'm doing marriage counseling for me because I need to be sure I've done everything before I decide to leave for good. And continuing now because I don't want to hold boundaries alone with him- I have 38 years of not being able to hold boundaries so if I need a little observation of how the marriage counselor does it and hand holding now, then that's okay. I'm still holding those boundaries at home and it gets a little easier each week.

And I definitely have started my plan to leave in case I need it- moving important documents to a relative I trust, opened a bank account, etc. And I took the guns out of the house - he was really mad about that, but I needed it to be able to hold boundaries and if I decide to leave to do so without any fear (even if it was just my own irrational fear). And I did check w a lawyer first and the advice was to do those things. But if I were to actually leave, I do worry that he'd follow though w past threats to kill himself. I have a safety plan for myself, of course, with my individual therapist in the know. But that's my big fear is that if counseling ends and he knows I'm going to leave, that he would do something dangerous.

Plus, I just need a bit more time to be sure he can't change, that I'm done with having to be super firm on boundaries for the rest of my life, that I don't want to practice radical acceptance of an imbalanced relationship where I won't ever be truly seen, etc- basically that I want to leave. And I worry about the logistics & finances because I have health issues and I'm not working right now. I'm holding to the hope that my chronic health stuff will improve if I leave (genetic condition, it won't go away but stress makes it worse). I saw in a FB group for my health condition that someone else asked and lots of people said they had major health improvements after leaving narcissistic and/or toxic relationships. So, maybe I'll be okay financially on my own. But finances w a chronic health condition are my other fear if I leave.

[SonofThunder]

SweetCaroline,

I appreciate your response and again, sorry you experience these issues. Good to read regarding your planning ☺️ 

Regarding the tidbits of 'improvement' you see from your husband, that seem timely to keep your supply in the marriage and sadly also, the self-harm threats he has made in the past;  they both fit snugly into the IDD cycle (Idealize, Devalue. Discard), in which the goal for the PD is to keep their supply source attached through lovebombing/hoovering (your tidbits?), tearing you down and then if that doesn't get the bar-raising supply jumpstarted again, moving into discard as the deeply hurtful card played to either bring the non back again or provide the PD a blaming reason they find new supply (they always return to victim mode). 

Along with the revolving IDD cycle is the interplay of the Karpman drama triangle roles between the PD and the non, which helps to assist the PD to keep the IDD cycle revolving nicely.  Again sadly, the self harm threats are utilized by the PD in victim mode to keep their supply around, normally generating a similar response to what you wrote:  "But if I were to actually leave, I do worry that he'd follow though w past threats to kill himself."   (Link immediately below to the Out of the FOG page on safety)

https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/ensure-your-own-personal-safety

You also might find YouTube videos on the IDD cycle by Dr Ramani (link below to one of her videos) to be helpful to understanding the cycles revolving door.  I wish you the best as you decide your next steps, and as your fellow comrade here on Out of the FOG, sending support vibes for courage and calm forward movement. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oik4IsgQ4uk

SoT

[FiveForFighting]

This all hits quite close to home and informs the thought process that I am tackling currently. I do think I will attend therapy on my own but SOT, your comment herein was eye opening as that was the exact thing that happened to me during our first attempt at counseling.

I therefore, in my marriage, refused requests to attend counseling, as my experiences taught me, it was going to only be about me and changes I would be asked to make. I was a 'caretaker' husband (referencing Fjelstads wonderful book) for three decades so I was through with caretaking behaviors. 

Not to mention the fact, that, she would take every opportunity to use the therapy session to validate getting her needs met and put emphasis on all I was doing wrong. I cant recall how many times I heard the Ol "therapy isnt helping yoy change. Why are you even going? " 

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

In my experience, the time to quit was before it even started.

I wasn't fully aware of what I needed or how to deal with my PD husband, so the therapy was very damaging to me.  It set me back at least a year.