Narcissism or another mental illness?

[Amy-Rose]

Hi,
How can you tell if someone is on the narcissism spectrum or suffers something that causes them to behaviour in a certain way, for example (no disrespect meant here) autism?
Especially if you're dealing with a more covert narcissist. I'd hate to call someone out on their behaviour/walk away when it's something they can't help. I'm thinking specifically of a new friend I've made and maybe I'm just being paranoid because I only just got rid of someone who displayed a narcissistic behavioural pattern. This new friend all ready seems to be asking me to help her out with things and is very self-absorbed but also does seem to listen when I talk but never asks again. She has very little empathy and doesn't really share anything so it's hard to relate to her or build a bond. Sometimes I feel like she wants these closet relationships but just can't or doesn't know how to create them or isn't interested in relating just using. She has lots of friends yet they never seem to be around much when she needs someone.
She went away last weekend to a conference on mental health she knows I'm interested in. I know she went away but she doesn't think I do and when I asked if she'd been up to anything interesting lately she just said "not really." If I go away, she'll never ask if I had a good time. Never asks how I am or how my life is going. She's almost a constant contradiction.
She comes across as shy and socially awkward, very rarely making eye contact with people she doesn't know. Then she can suddenly get on a train alone, travel 5 hours ago, check in and stay in a hotel all by herself. Go to a conference, meet people she doesn't know and come home all by herself. I suffer with social anxiety and anxiety in general I couldn't do that even though I'd love to. She claims mental illnesses (never been specific about what) yet they never seem to get in the way of anything she wants to do. She says she prefers animals to people but seems to take every opportunity to be around people and never passes up a chance to go out.
I'm just getting that butterfly knot in my stomach that something feels off again. It's the same types of things. She's happy to come in mine but will never let me in hers. I had that last time. It was always me giving and the other person taking. I don't trust this person and I'm not sure if I'm still feeling hypersensitive due to my last experiences or what.

[countrygirl]

Hi Amy-Rose,

I wish I were qualified to delineate the differences between narcissism and autism, but it occurs to me that it wouldn't be impossible for someone to be both.  Just as there are people who are narcissists but aren't on the autism spectrum, I would bet that there are people on the spectrum who are narcissistic.   

In this particular case, I think you need to see how the friendship progresses.  Since she has already mentioned mental illness, perhaps she will provide more specifics as you get to know her better--if you decide you want the friendship to progress, that is.  Even if you never learn a diagnosis, you might decide to withdraw because it's the symptoms you can't tolerate, no matter the cause.  Like you, I mean no disrespect to those on the autism spectrum, and I understand that you would be sympathetic to someone whose behavior is different because they can not help it; but you still have to decide what you can and can not accept in a friendship

I do not think you are being hypersensitive to see possible red flags.  You just escaped one narcissistic friendship, and you don't want to start another.  You don't want to be the one who's doing all of the giving once again.  I am sure you like a lot about this person, but it doesn't sound as if this relationship is making you happy, and I can certainly understand that.  You probably already wish she were different.  Why couldn't she just have told you what she did during the weekend, for example?  Why does she want to hang out with you, but not tell you this, not have you to her place, etc.  Is she protecting herself?  Maybe you will find out or maybe you won't, but this friendship is already fraught.  You want a friend, not a therapy client.   

[Amy-Rose]

@countrygirl
Maybe she needs to get to know me better before she shares things with me? But isn't that how you get to know someone better? By sharing your interests, thoughts and feelings? I'm not referring to private or touchy subjects. I ask no deep, personal questions just show polite interest.
She mentioned she was going away for a week and asked me to take her plants and water them. I said: "oh lovely. Where are you going?"
"Just to stay with a friend."
"anywhere nice?"
"Oh it's a long way away."
That is exactly what the last one would of said. Very secretive. Made you feel like she was doing something she shouldn't be and then I'd discover she did go and see a friend and it was all what she'd said - so why be cloak and dagger about it?

I have a nephew, a best friend and my ex partner all on the autism spectrum to varying degrees, and she does show a lot of the same behaviours. She's very chaotic though. Constant contradictions.

[Catothecat]

I agree with countrygirl that this friendship is starting to sound like you're being lured into a therapist/client type of relationship, i.e., you are spending much of your time trying to "figure her out" while she remains elusive thus reinforcing your desire to understand her. 

She's in control of the relationship.  I could be wrong, but she possibly enjoys your confusion and your desire to get to know her better.  As long as she keeps you guessing, she keeps the control.  From what you write, she's already establishing a pattern for the friendship and has shown no indication of changing course.  This "constant contradiction" could be manipulation.  She keeps you guessing and wondering while she goes about living her life.  What's in it for you?

When I've encountered people like this, I just relegate them to the casual friend category unless they show themselves to be capable of real friendship.  Keeping you guessing isn't accomplishing that.

[Amy-Rose]

@Catothecat
That's a very good point and I never thought of it like that. She does seem to tell you what suits her. She got redundant 6 months ago and has only mentioned it to me within the last three weeks. Didn't seem to have any reasons to withhold that. But it's her private life and she's entitled to tell who she wants. I don't deserve to know personal things about her. But I often feel like I'm interrogating her just by asking normal questions.

Then suddenly there will be a burst of information. Nothing in real detail or depth, then opts to be vague if you ask questions about something she volunteered to tell you.

Every time I see her she's mentioning this friend and that friend (none by name) and I know these people do exist in her life, but when her car broke down and she had to wait a month for it to be fixed she had to walk everywhere. No family came to help her. No friends came to help her. She never has any visitors.

I'm just not sure how to handle this situation. I don't want to be nasty or push someone away who has mental health problems they can't help, but I got fooled last time and kept making excuses for someone who just displayed toxic behaviour. It never felt so good to get someone out of my life! All she did was muddle my head and confuse me until I spent too much time questioning her actions because her actions didn't reflect her words on a daily basis. She had all the flow, all the chat and could say all the right things but then would go and do the opposite with thought or consideration.

Maybe, I'll just stop asking questions. Even the polite ones that I ask just to show interest. Start saying no more to help she asks for because if she has all these other friends she can ask them. Take a back seat and just listen to what she says. In my favour this time I'm better prepared. Last time I'd never dealt with a cunning manipulator and someone who showed lots of covert Narc traits. Now I'm better aware. I'll do something for this new friend and get a box of chocolates for doing it - is that gratitude, payment or a way of keeping you doing for her?

AS someone who is interested in Psychology I do tend to ponder the behaviours and thought patterns of people as it interests me.

Thanks for the insight and help so far guys x

[Catothecat]

Unfortunately, with some people, you can never entirely figure out what's going on with them.  I have a friend (now a casual friend) who has engaged in (increasingly) odd behavior for as long as I've known her (now going on 30 years!).  I have never understood what's going on and realize I never will.  It's bits and pieces of this and that which never come together to form a cohesive picture. Because of that, I gave up trying and now only deal with her when she's part of a group and no longer one-on-one.  It was no longer worth my time and effort as much as I liked her and wanted to get to know her. She was never going to allow that to happen, however, because as long as she remained elusive she remained in control of the relationship.  But yeah, when she wanted something she knew how to show up. 

I felt sorry for her, angry with her, depressed over her treatment of me, and so on until I realized this was not a genuine relationship.  It was just a facsimile. 

[countrygirl]

HI Amy-Rose,

What you said about being interested in psychology, in trying to figure out people's behavior and motivations, etc. really resonated for me.  I do the same thing.  And it's also the reason I like fiction with character-driven plot in any genre.  However, it is one thing to do this for a fictional character, and another to do it with a friend.  Ultimately, with a friend, it is the behavior which counts.  Speaking only for myself, with difficult people, I can become so caught up in trying to find an explanation for their behavior that I can end up excusing the behavior!

And, often, as Catothecat has noted, you can end up never knowing why someone is behaving as they do. Sometimes the people themselves are not self aware, and don't even know themselves why they behave as they do.  (And might choose NOT to want to understand themselves.)  Other times, you can see what is going on, but although knowing why can cause you to feel empathy for them, it often doesn't change how they treat you.   

Ultimately, no matter how interesting a person may be, we are left with how they treat us.  I speak as someone who has gone down the "why" route many times, and who will always continue to be interested in human behavior.  But I've almost always ending up unhappy when I've become involved with difficult people.  As you know, I'm still working on this, so please don't feel as if I'm saying I've got it all solved!  You may be somewhat like me and become intrigued with a "mysterious" person. And since it's easy for you to give, you might not realize how easy it is to be drained by someone who isn't giving back. 

But you have to work through things on your own, of course!  You are interested in this person; your mind is engaged.  I do understand, but I don't want to see you get hurt!   

[moglow]

Some people are comfortable in their own company, whether traveling or in their day to day life. I'm admittedly one of those, an introvert to the point where I'm sure I might be described as avoidance at times. I don't necessarily see others as intrusive but I do know several who are much more guarded and protective of their privacy than I.

Rather than assuming something is "wrong" with her, consider that it may simply take time for her to open up or trust in general. She may have been burned by people close to her or she could simply take her time in getting to know others. Some listen, offering little until they feel comfortable, where others jump in with both feet all doors open from day onr. And many of us fall somewhere between, just accepting others wherever they are at the time.

[Amy-Rose]

@countrygirl and Catothecat -
That's the thing isn't it. She's achieved step 1. Either deliberately or accidentally. She engaged me. She is very 'mysterious'. I can deal with how someone treats me, when I know their treatment isn't intentional. My nephew can be very out of sight out of mind and if it doesn't involve him it doesn't interest him. His autism makes him very self focused and he has the tendency to do only what's best for him and think of no one else. This is behaviour he's unaware of doing and can't change as he doesn't notice he's doing it.

I guess it's more a case of I'm not really sure where I stand with this new friend. I don't know what I am to her. And we all tend to see the actions of others but maybe I'm doing something that causes her to run hot and cold. I either see her a lot or not at all. Maybe I'm giving off the vibe of being not that interested as I'm an introvert and like to spend a LOT of time alone. She seems to be always looking for someone to see and somewhere to go.

She has "all these friends" - who she'll go out for lunches with or keep going away to visit. But on her birthday she showed up on my door step because none of them made plans with her. At christmas "all these friends" are happy to leave her sat in her own. When there is drama no one is around. A close member of her family suddenly died and she comes round mine. None of these "friends" were ever about. Her own family don't even come.

But I may have a new possibility and a little more insight into this person. Yesterday I saw her for the first time in 2 weeks as her fridge freezer had broken and she needed help getting it moved up a flight of stairs and down two flights out of her flat. I agreed to help (stupid I know). But that's me, I never learn. The place was hoarded with things. So many items just in the hallway and kitchen it was like an assault on the eyes. Just stacks of books, shoes...things piled on any available surface to the point you couldn't make out what any of it is! So that answers the question as to why she lets no one in. She only let me in as she was desperate for help and obviously no one was around again. The bedroom was just full of clothes, the bed was buried under 4 foot of clothes and shoes. I can only imagine what the living room was like. I just felt empathy for her. Her social life must suffer for it. And no one let's their home get like that if they're happy and capable. The kitchen wasn't dirty, with dirty plates everywhere, but there was hardly any space to put anything and just piles of randomness everywhere.
But when she goes out she always looks so clean and put together! I'd never have imagined her place looked like that. I didn't react. I just treated it like I'd walked into anyone else's home. Pretended I didn't even notice.

But wow.

Thank you both for taking the time to reply so far and for the insight you both have given me. You're both very wise.

[moglow]

Side note: She could also have issues with depression. While the hoarder appearance would run me straight up a tree, some do get lost and overwhelmed then can't/won't deal with the chaos on even a limited basis.

[notrightinthehead]

The hoarder part would explain a lot of her flakiness and reserved behaviour.  May I ask why you would want to put so much effort and energy into such a troubled person? She is occupying a space in your life that could be filled with a healthy person, who appreciates you and contributes a good feeling to your life.
I have recently thought and made a list about the qualities I want in a friend.  This has helped me to distinguish between people who bring something good into my life and people who only drain my energy. I have then decided to put more energy and time into the first category and less into the second. And the second seems to just be fading away now.

Reciprocity is one of the points that is important for me. Applied to your case - I would ask myself- would that person help me move a fridge?

Also: even if you never mention the hoarding with her, you know and she knows that you know. It will be the elephant in the room and it won't let you be authentic when you are with her.

[Catothecat]

I guess what I'm curious about is the reality of those she calls friends.  Do you know for a fact that they even exist?

[Amy-Rose]

Notrightinthehead -
Thanks so much for taking the time. I think every good person is worth energy and time, just because she's troubled doesn't mean she can't be a good friend in time. Like someone else suggested, she may just need time and have trust problems. People with mental illnesses don't frighten me away. My best friend had borderline personality and bipolar - she could be hard work but she was the best friend I ever had. She'd move mountains for me. Was always there to help and often the first and only one there when something went wrong. communication was the key. She took her own life last year.

I'd like to see your list if you wouldn't mind sharing it - just for future reference. I did make one about all the negative traits to look for in someone.

I know the friends exist as I've seen them talking to her on facebook and occasionally seen them about. How often she sees them I don't know about.