Just admitted to myself that my wife is abusive.

DontEngage · November 17, 2022, 01:26:57 PM

Hi everyone,

Thanks for just being here and giving me a safe space to vent. I'm hoping I can start connecting with some of you. I've been married for 12 years and I finally admitted to myself that my wife a narcissistic abuser. I've justified and excused her and blamed myself the whole time, but I can't deny reality anymore. I could list off everything she does, but I'm sure it would sound so much like what everyone else here has gone through. What's more important is how harmful it's been to me. I've questioned everything about myself throughout our relationship: Is my memory that bad? Do I actually not love or care about her or my children? Am I really that selfish? Is my ADHD really that bad? Logically, I now know that the answers to those questions are definitely 'NO!', but it still feels like the answers might be yes. My wife is mostly an overt narcissist. Her rage is cruel and devastating. There's only one other person that's been able to make me feel that terrible about myself, and that was my mom. She's a covert narcissist, but I didn't realize that until 7 years ago when I ended up in a psychiatric hospital. At the time, I though I was that 'crazy' and depressed and just couldn't handle normal life. Now I understand that I was in the middle of a fight between my narcissist mother and my narcissist wife and they both used me until I just fell apart.

I feel like I'm 'supposed' to be able to see these patterns and signs. I know that there's a difference between understanding the information and seeing it in your own life, but I'm constantly having to challenge the thought that I 'should've seen this earlier'.

The hardest part right now is I haven't decided what to do. We have 3 boys together (11, 8 and 4 years old). I love those boys with all my heart, but I'm terrified of what she would do if I left or if I tried to take them. I brought up separating a while back and her immediate answer, other than talking about the state of our relationship, was to threaten to go to court and take them from me. I live in a state where the courts lean really strongly toward the mother's parental rights, so I have to be very careful about how I move forward. I know it's not the healthiest choice for myself, but I'm considering just staying in the marriage (but emotionally unengaged) to minimize the harm that she can do to them. I'm willing to take the hit if it's better for my boys in the long run. I know that nobody else can give me the right answer, but I'd appreciate hearing from other people, especially other men, on what you've decided to do about your relationship when there are kids involved.

Thanks so much to everyone for being her and being safe for me. I've already disclosed to my best friend and one of my cousins (both are definitely safe and supportive) but it's tricky to find time to talk to them and I don't feel comfortable texting them very often because my wife might look at the messages at some point. That's probably giving her too much power, but I just had this realization and started emotionally disengaging from her, so I don't know how this is going to play out. Right now I'm just focused on keeping myself and my boys as safe as possible in the current situation. She's not physically violent, but I'm sure you all know how much damage an abuser can do without laying a finger on you.

guitarman · November 17, 2022, 06:20:20 PM

Welcome. You are not alone.

I can relate to what you have posted about. I have an undiagnosed BPD/NPD sister. I now call her my abuser and I am her target of abuse. It has taken me many years to redefine our relationship like that.

She has alienated everyone in our family because of her behaviour.

We need to work on building our self esteem. That way we can begin to cope better.

I follow the author and counsellor Kris Godinez. She specialises in Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome and shows how targets of abuse can cope better.

Her YouTube channel is called "We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez".

I hope you are able to get professional support. Even though you are a mental health professional yourself you need support for yourself as well.

Other people really don't understand what it can be like living with a NPD person in your life unless they've experienced it themselves.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

DontEngage · November 17, 2022, 08:58:09 PM

Thanks so much guitarman. I'm going to check out Kris Godinez right away. And thank you for encouraging me to get my own therapist. I know I need it, but I have to keep reminding myself not to put it off until later. I appreciate you sharing about your own abuser. It really does help to know I'm not alone and that other men have been the target of women too. I don't buy into toxic masculinity, but society does, and lots of men feel ashamed to speak out. I hope I can pass on the support to other men as I'm healing too.

guitarman · November 18, 2022, 07:26:46 AM

You may also like to check out the Other Media Resources section of the forum as well. There is lots of useful information there that other people have found useful to them.

SonofThunder · November 19, 2022, 05:49:38 PM

Quote from: user on November 19, 2022, 05:18:30 PM
DontEngage,

Welcome to Out of the FOG! I'm glad you have found us. FWIW, my therapist is divorced from an overt narcissist...he got fooled too for many years, they had kids together, and all that. I hope you aren't too hard on yourself about that. PDs are experts at playing the game that convinces us nons that they're "normal"--until they're not. You're human like everyone else, don't be too hard on yourself that you didn't see the signs.
I too have a PD wife and kids at home, and can completely relate with how much more challenging it makes everything. When I think about divorce, I feel completely overwhelmed because of the implications with the kids. I get it.
In the meantime, it sounds like you are on the right track. I'm glad you've found a couple people you can talk with. Do you have a Therapist of your own? My T has been a huge support to me as I've been going through this.
I'd suggest doing as much reading and watching of videos as you can. Even as a therapist, I'm sure you'll have a different lens on it now applying it to yourself. If you've read around the forum, you've probably seen myself and others recommend Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, a book by Dr. Fjelstad. I'd also highly recommend Dr. Ramani and Dr. Les Carter on YouTube.
Stay strong and keep posting!
user

DontEngage, welcome to Out of the FOG. Sorry you are experiencing these behaviors with your wife. You are surely not alone in your experiences. You are in good company here.

SoT

JustKeepTrying · November 19, 2022, 10:59:21 PM

DontEngage - Welcome to Out of the FOG. Sorry for the reason you are here but glad you found us. There are an incredible amount of resources here and the forum alone is an education. Please don't beat yourself up over staying - even as a therapist - I know it's easier said than done. To me it indicates you are a good person who only sees the best in people.

I am not a man but I do have one suggestion. Look at the as a long game. Take a step back and look at your wife and what would incentivize her to leave - and leave the children. What evidence could you gather - over time - I know that what I am suggesting sounds cruel and tastes horrible but that is the position we are in. Also consider the long term effects on the kids - I wish I had left far earlier and the effect on my children and my own physical health took a toll. Your body really does keep score - my children and I all have real physical problems related to being exposed to that long term stress.

Sending you hope and healing.

SonofThunder · November 20, 2022, 04:00:05 AM

Quote from: JustKeepTrying on November 19, 2022, 10:59:21 PM
DontEngage - Welcome to Out of the FOG. Sorry for the reason you are here but glad you found us. There are an incredible amount of resources here and the forum alone is an education. Please don't beat yourself up over staying - even as a therapist - I know it's easier said than done. To me it indicates you are a good person who only sees the best in people.

I am not a man but I do have one suggestion. Look at the as a long game. Take a step back and look at your wife and what would incentivize her to leave - and leave the children. What evidence could you gather - over time - I know that what I am suggesting sounds cruel and tastes horrible but that is the position we are in. Also consider the long term effects on the kids - I wish I had left far earlier and the effect on my children and my own physical health took a toll. Your body really does keep score - my children and I all have real physical problems related to being exposed to that long term stress.

Sending you hope and healing.

JKT & DontEngage,

JKT, you wrote: "what would incentivize her to leave - and leave the children." And also wrote "..but that is the position we are in."

Im assuming the "we" is a non-PD wife or a nonPD spouse in general. I will add my experience as a male and my opinion about male vs female PD's. My experience with my stbxw is that her foundational trait of 'fear of abandonment' (FOA) prevented her from EVER leaving. She threatened divorce numerous times over decades, but when her bluff was finally called (a temp separation) on one of the later threats, she quickly went into deep FOA victim mode, which instantly made me the leaving perpetrator. Now once again separated, but heading to full divorce against her desire, i live in this perpetrator state, and her FOA victim mode is in full gear, but now with legal representation and a female army of friend supporters. As Ive said elsewhere it constantly feels like I have abandoned a young, dependent child, alone in a frightening city....a girl I swore to provide for and protect. Its a gut wrenching experience that is amplified by her FOA.

Based on my experiences here on Out of the FOG since my arrival, my opinion is formed that there is a difference between male and female PD's and divorce. I believe the difference is uniquely male, masculine, testosterone-driven PD pride. I believe if there was a Out of the FOG poll, that non-females either had their PD husband leave and/or cheat, or stand firm in their abuses while the non-pd wife left, or the female remains married to a unrepentant abusive male.

I also believe that same poll would show that non-pd males either remain married to an unrepentant, abusive, divorce-threatening PD female or like me, the non-PD male had to eventually leave an abusive female PD who had threatened divorce many times as manipulation for compliance, and then when the male left, the female PD went into full FOA victim mode of a heartless male who left their family.

Imo, the difference is male PD narcissistic pride, which covertly boasts "My wife will comply and never leave" or "I will show her who is boss and that I can replace her with a different willing female" or "I can thrive without her so I will leave and she will realize/suffer alone when I'm gone". I just don't read the stories of male PD's who emotionally imploded in that FOA mode, but rather the males confidently and covertly punish their wife who left, using whatever tools (including kids) they have at their disposal.

I am in no way insinuating female weakness, but rather that female PD's wear their emotions more on their sleeves than most males, and will also use inherent and societal feminine norms, to their advantage, in different ways. I believe PD males will proudly bury their emotions while they set out to win/hurt or both.

Therefore regarding, "what would incentivize her to leave - and leave the children"? I believe that is different for female non's vs male non's. I actually would be overjoyed to statistically have my opinion proven wrong.

DontEngage, you wrote in the original post that you have brought up separation previously and were met with threats. In your 12 years, have you had your PDw threaten you with divorce if you dont comply to her needed bar-raising life changes, in which the entire to-do list is in your corner? If yes, did that threat dissolve once you complied?

My opinion is that if you stay, and you desire to put your PDw's FOA i describe to a test (so you will know what you would face in a full divorce) you can call her bluff on her next divorce threat and declare a timeline-defined "healing separation" (look it up online if you are unfamiliar). You would need to prep a place to go, but you would leave for a set amount of time (30 days, 60 days, 90 days) in order for YOU to take some needed time to "heal" (don't waver on that reason) and regroup your thoughts. Its like two boxers going to their own corners between rounds haha.

I highlighted "YOU" because in proper boundaries, you can only control yourself, not her. I cannot declare a "healing separation" for my wife. Any "healing" is up to her. Im not saying this specific time away will heal you in any way, but rather is a bluff-call, so you may add the extra experience data gathered on you, her, the kids, her friends/support group, etc...to your thinking and planning regarding staying or leaving that you originally pondered.

SoT

JustKeepTrying · November 20, 2022, 11:23:56 AM

SOT - Interesting. I think I follow it all but not sure I entirely agree. I know that my xOCPDh utilizes that victim mode even to this day - he has made the long suffering persona a habit. I see it for what it is - a manipulation - but others are entirely fooled. I am not sure that gender plays as much a role as implied.

I suppose I was looking at it from a public relations angle - a spin as they say. If she is afraid of being on her own; public face or whatever motivates her or is her deepest fear - address that and perhaps it will ease the separation. I don't know - in my situation I had to leave quickly for safety reasons. Plus I was so swayed by the daily eggshells it was hard to be objective and plan.

Also consider the divorce laws again, I had the option of a legal separation where you are separate in all aspects except for the red tape. It allows a person to save face; be financially stable; care for the children and yet be separate. I was advised this was an option for those with religious reasons or health insurance.

SonofThunder · November 20, 2022, 02:24:04 PM

Quote from: JustKeepTrying on November 20, 2022, 11:23:56 AM
SOT - Interesting. I think I follow it all but not sure I entirely agree. I know that my xOCPDh utilizes that victim mode even to this day - he has made the long suffering persona a habit. I see it for what it is - a manipulation - but others are entirely fooled. I am not sure that gender plays as much a role as implied.

I suppose I was looking at it from a public relations angle - a spin as they say. If she is afraid of being on her own; public face or whatever motivates her or is her deepest fear - address that and perhaps it will ease the separation. I don't know - in my situation I had to leave quickly for safety reasons. Plus I was so swayed by the daily eggshells it was hard to be objective and plan.

Also consider the divorce laws again, I had the option of a legal separation where you are separate in all aspects except for the red tape. It allows a person to save face; be financially stable; care for the children and yet be separate. I was advised this was an option for those with religious reasons or health insurance.

JKT,

Yes, my opinion may indeed be inaccurate and im happy to be proven wrong.

You wrote: "If she is afraid of being on her own; public face or whatever motivates her or is her deepest fear - address that and perhaps it will ease the separation."

So lets say that DontEngage's wife was truly fearful about being alone, and possibly enhanced by deep-seated FOA. Would you possibly expand on "address that", as to what that could look like in your idea? My experience is that there is no real scenario i could craft that would, would-have motivate(d) my stbx to embrace a separation/divorce and a period of aloneness.

So very sorry you had to leave quickly for safety reasons. Scary indeed. When you left, did your xOCPDh truly fall to emotional pieces over you leaving, and display that behavior to your children and others? Or, did he seem to take it in stride, or even display his pride (and therefore hurt toward you) that he will do just fine on his own, while smearing you as the perpetrator (therefore him the victim)?

In my opinion, all PD's love to facade-camp in victim mode in public relations, while they persecute behind closed doors in reality. But i rarely read about a PD male's emotional collapse. I do read about PD husbands combo-prepping their potential FOA by arranging female supply ahead of time (cheating, online dating etc..), which also serves as hurtful to the spouse. I also read about PD males proudly and confidently discarding, while asserting whatever post-departure pain they can dish out on the spouse, using finances, dating, manipulative behaviors with kids and time. The later is probably done by female PD's as well, but my guess the emotional FOA collapse of female PD's is much more publicly visible than male PD's.

In circling back to the thread, i believe male non's are at a disadvantage in departure in some regions because of this statement by DontEngage: "I live in a state where the courts lean really strongly toward the mother's parental rights, so I have to be very careful about how I move forward."

That is imo, true where i live as well. I know examples where the PD mother used her multiple young children as continuous bait and tools to inflict emotional hurt on the departing husband; literally putting the children repetitively into very agonizing and traumatic emotional and physical situations, while fabricating about the husbands behavior and her obtaining a protective order. Yet, even though the husbands attorney proved she was lying and using the court system for hurt on him, and attempted personal gain (therefore the kids subjected to purposeful abuses in the process), the court is still ok with 50/50 custody arrangements in the process, because until the custody hearing is finalized, the young children "need their mother".

My opinion, if the specific situation was gender reversed, it would be 100/0 in favor of the mother through the process. I luckily was able to wait until my kids were adults, and not sure, given my example above, that it would have been better for the children in my case, because im male. Not sure what DontEngage's T practice specializes in, but we all understand that T's can only work with what feedback they're given, and PD's are skilled manipulators and great actors/actresses. Therefore im not sure if he has any general feedback from his work history to disprove my opinions on the true FOA display subject with females vs males.

Either way, my opinions only matter to me, and I guided myself accordingly over the decade(s). Enjoying the deep gender/situational/legal conversations around DontEngage's unfortunate situation with his PD wife and young children. I look forward to his and others in further replies.

Your Out of the FOG comrade,

SoT