Stuck in the Middle of Extremely Challenging Family Dynamics

TheStruggleIsReal · December 16, 2022, 08:43:22 AM

My family is a dysfunctional mess. For context, my wife, kid, & I live in another state away from the rest of the family. Lately, I've been unpacking some difficult realities about my relationships. A previous marriage counselor diagnosed my wife (in confidence to me) with BPD. She has endured a lot of trauma in her life and has been to therapy off-and-on to work through much of it. However, she has regressed a lot this year. I've realized my Dad likely has NPD, and my Mom shows many characteristics of narcissism, as well. My MIL shows signs of NPD & BPD. I'm a little unsure.

We have gone through a difficult year, but I've really worked on empathizing with my BPDW's feelings. I made big mistakes throughout our marriage by attempting to explain my parents' behavior so that (in my mind) my wife would have a better understanding of them. I realize now she viewed this as a form of gaslighting. Now, I just try to listen to and empathize with her, even if I don't agree with her thoughts on everything. What often surprises me is the level of emotion she communicates with concerning hurts that were inflicted months or years ago. It's like they happened just yesterday.

A few months ago, my Dad way overstepped his boundaries and told my BPW his thoughts on what he believed she should do with her life. My BPDW was extremely traumatized for a while, and my parents have became a huge trigger for her. She has been gaslighted by them for many years. While I recognize some of the issues she brings up with my parents, other issues I don't always see.

Since then, we have put up necessary boundaries with both sets of parents. I wanted to go low contact. However, I felt pressured by my BPW to go no contact, but wanted to support her request to see if it would help us heal & incorporate some new boundaries.

After that terrible visit with my parents, I sent my mom a letter, explaining we needed a break and asking them to respect a few specific boundaries (respect my wife, stop telling us how to live, stop gossiping about us to my in-laws). Her response was very short, and she accused me of being ungrateful and said my Dad's apology should have been "good enough".

Meanwhile, my BPDW thinks my parents are the worst people in the world. This is where the splitting comes in to play for her. She used to have pseudo-close relationship with my mom, and I thought they had become really close because they would text and talk by phone constantly for years. However, my wife grew tired of the "one-sided relationship" and trying to please my mom. She gave tirelessly, and has grown weary of trying with her. My mom likely has never fully accepted my wife, as she made comments to me about how "hard she is on me."

In addition, my parents have gotten extremely close with my in-laws during this time. My MIL called and chewed out my wife for two hours, telling her that we gave up our rights when we became Christians, that we need to forgive and move forward, and that we are hurting everyone. My MIL doesn't believe in boundaries and wants everyone in the family to keep the peace & honor their parents, no matter the parents' behavior. My in-laws constantly tell my wife she needs to just "let things roll off your back". My MIL walks all over my wife at times with her verbal abuse & controlling words. My BPW says she continues to stay on the phone out of fear of her mom.

While I can maintain low contact with parents, my wife wants no contact with them until there is change. I'm realizing that my immediate family takes priority. My wife's mental health comes before my parents. However, I still desire to maintain a little contact and want our son to have a relationship with his grandparents. In spite of all their flaws & personality disorders, both my parents & in-laws have been very good grandparents to our son. They are much better grandparents than parents ironically.

My wife thinks that my parents "win" if I have a little contact with them. Yet, she has never cut off her own parents who have been far more verbally abusive to her. Whenever I discuss the possibility of low contact with my parents, she gets extremely triggered & emotionally upset. She casts all the blame for her mental state on my parents.

Any thoughts on how to navigate all of this? We are scheduled to begin therapy next week. I feel like I've given up too much control to everyone else, and that my mind is a mess trying to figure all of this out. (I'm an INFJ personality, so I absorb all this negative emotion.) No one involved seems to be self-reflective, which obviously I can't change that. Everyone is playing the blame game. I feel like there are a lot of enmeshment issues between my in-law & parents, and I may be a codependent in my marriage. I'm feeling stuck in the middle and that my desires don't matter. For someone like me who doesn't take myself too seriously and prefers to resolve things through communication and forgiveness, this has been absolutely debilitating for me mentally.

treesgrowslowly · December 16, 2022, 09:58:36 AM

Hello and welcome,

I'm a long time member here, with family experiences from my own FOO that are full of dysfunction, enmeshment, unresolved traumas, personality disorders, and flying monkeys. Thankfully we live in an era where we have names for some of the things we experience with people in our family systems. You sound well versed in the terminology used to understand family dysfunction as well.

I'll share a few impressions I get from what you wrote. Take what fits, and hopefully some of it will be helpful.

1. Impression #1 from your writing. You said "no one seems to be self-reflective". I bet you are bang on with this observation. Self-reflection is pretty easy to see in a person, so when it is missing, it doesn't take Freud himself to see it. You are able to see that these are people who are acting without reflecting on their actions, which of course causes one dramatic episode after another. It is sad, how common this has become for people to behave like this in their family systems.

2. It is extremely unlikely that all, or even half of the people you are dealing with here, will eventually come to behave well, and respect boundaries, communicate clearly, and reflect on their own behaviours. I think part of you sees this, or intuits this. As an INFJ, you are capable of picking up on things that others might miss. Or be in denial about.

Your parents being "friends" with her parents is a huge red flag in my opinion. But if you read about narcs, it makes total sense. Narcissists are very good at enmeshments like this.

Not unlike my own experiences with outgrowing FOG and PD antics, my request to have my boundaries respected were also met with "no". And variations on "no". We can assert all the boundaries we want with someone but if they don't want to respect those boundaries -long story short, they won't. They will find ways around them. We end up managing their manipulations of our boundaries. Exhausting.

The toolbox here offers a great overview of how we come to understand this FOG based family system. If you have not looked at it yet, it is definitely worth your time.

What I had to learn about in laws: We are adult children of 2 (or 1, or 3) people who figured largely in our childhood. We are bonded to those people, and those bonds were forged in childhood (i.e. to biological parents, single parents, step parents, or whoever we bonded to as a child).

Your wife will see LC (low contact) differently when it relates to her parents, vs. yours. That is what I'm seeing from where I sit. She's bonded to her parents, and she's unlikely to feel protective of your parents -
whereas you likely feel protective of your parents (and your relationship with them).

Your parent own skills with emotional regulation, conflict management, effective communication, respecting boundaries are probably figuring largely into what you've seen as of late. How well are they handling the situation they are now in? It doesn't sound like they really even understand the situation they are in.

If your mother is not treating your wife well, of course it is going to put you in a very stressful position.

I wish it were not so common - the dynamics you describe. I wish that MIL's knew how to treat their DIL's better. I have come to believe that a lot of MILs these days seem to have a very rigid view of how their DIL should behave. When the DIL doesn't follow this script, the MIL acts out. Some of those MIL's are then able to behave well around their grandchildren - why? I think a lot of that is because she is the type of woman who likes to see herself as "not the problem". It sounds like your mother is invested in being seen as "not the problem here".

"Look at me, being so good to other people (but not my DIL) I'm not the main problem here". It's a song and dance I have seen described over and over through my years of learning what it takes to get out of a messed up family situation full of never ending dramas.

I am sorry you are going through this. It sounds like you have outgrown the antics that others are still playing at, and that your wife needs your support so that she can hopefully explore what is going on for her. She may have a wanted a different kind of MIL than she got. Hopefully therapy will help you to get your bearings so that you do not feel so undone by this situation.

Trees

bloomie · December 16, 2022, 10:21:48 AM

TheStruggleIsReal - Hi and welcome!

Whew! there are a lot of moving parts to the current situation you find your family in. I am thankful you have found us, but so sorry for how hard and complicated these intergenerational relationships are. It certainly has to take a huge toll on both you and your DW.

It warms my heart to read your putting your wife's mental heath and well being as a priority over your parent's. Taking a step back, when boundaries have been violated and needs not met, is wise and allows space to regroup and find the best path forward. It is important to continue addressing your own needs and mental health in this as well. A good therapist will be a neutral 3rd party that you and your wife can look to for some insights and help processing all you have been through.

I want to offer a few resources that have been really helpful for me - the Toolbox and Other Media Resources that have been gathered here by other members are a great help. It has helped me a lot to read and absorb from these sources. it is validating and strengthening to find descriptions of plumb lines that define what healthy and unhealthy living is.

In terms of the spiritual shaming and demand you 'forgive', accusations you are 'hurting everyone'... I have lived with my faith being used against me in this way - as many others here have - for a very long time now. I just finished a really great book by Lysa Terkeurst called Boundaries and Goodbyes that is so, so good. I can't recommend it more highly, especially for debunking those who use The Bible out of context to manipulate and shame us into getting in line and continue to give them full access to our lives when they refuse to behave responsibly with the access they already have.

Another great resource is the work of Jerry Wise - free vids found here: https://www.youtube.com/@jerrywise

I am a grandma and I want to gently point out that the most important responsibility I hold as a grandparent is to love and respect my grandchildren's parents. I respect their wishes, their life choices, their agency over what does and does not work for them and for the kiddos. I cannot love my grandchildren well if I am not loving their parents well. It is just something to think about as you consider if/when/how you may want to go forward regarding access to your child.

My very painful experience has been that if an adult family member cannot manage their behaviors respectfully toward me they will eventually not manage or respect boundaries around my kids. Suggest moving forward with extreme caution around all of that with the guidance of your therapist and full equal input between you and your wife.

Keep coming back and engaging in the community discussions and using all of the resources available.

moglow · December 16, 2022, 12:43:42 PM

Wow - I'm on board with the others here. Forgiveness is a great and necessary thing for all of us, but when it's all one sided and as "the child" you're supposed to just [in their words] respect and take whatever they dish ? I'm gonna have to disagree with them on this one. I'm a huge believer in do unto others regardless of the relationship - treat others as you'd like to be treated, or frankly just leave me be.

Quote... she accused me of being ungrateful and said my Dad's apology should have been "good enough".

Good enough *for that incident* IF he even acknowledged that he overstepped and actually apologized for it maybe. My contention is, an apology without changed behavior is basically useless. It's spraying air freshener over a big ole poo, knowing there will be more.

The fact still remains, we're each of us responsible for our own mental health and behavior. You're not the go-between for others' behavior, no matter who they might be. She [and you] can absolutely vent and try to come to an understanding of how to address things with your respective parents - the immediate family needs still come first. But outside that, you can't control your wife, your parents, her parents or anyone else. If they choose to leave each other be, that's their choice. If you decide your parents are harmful to you, your wife, your children, you're still within your rights to limit interaction with them. If they decide to do better, that could change. Or not. They don't get carte blanche because they're grandparents, is what I'm saying. You want to be rude and disrespectful to me and my spouse? Then maybe I don't want to expose my children to it.

And just to pick a nit here - you didn't "give up" anything when you became Christians. Just because they choose to justify their treatment of you through that mindset, doesn't make it right. Maybe you could gently suggest to your wife sometime, what exactly does she fear from her mother? She's a wife and mother herself, what exactly can her mother do to her if she doesn't allow herself to be walked all over, same as you with yours? They get mad and talk to you behind your backs? They already are. They cut you off? You don't get abused and talked to like you're children. I'm being tongue in cheek serious here - No one has to live that way, not even with parents.

TheStruggleIsReal · December 18, 2022, 08:53:17 AM

Quote from: treesgrowslowly on December 16, 2022, 09:58:36 AM
Hello and welcome,

I'm a long time member here, with family experiences from my own FOO that are full of dysfunction, enmeshment, unresolved traumas, personality disorders, and flying monkeys. Thankfully we live in an era where we have names for some of the things we experience with people in our family systems. You sound well versed in the terminology used to understand family dysfunction as well.

I'll share a few impressions I get from what you wrote. Take what fits, and hopefully some of it will be helpful.

1. Impression #1 from your writing. You said "no one seems to be self-reflective". I bet you are bang on with this observation. Self-reflection is pretty easy to see in a person, so when it is missing, it doesn't take Freud himself to see it. You are able to see that these are people who are acting without reflecting on their actions, which of course causes one dramatic episode after another. It is sad, how common this has become for people to behave like this in their family systems.

2. It is extremely unlikely that all, or even half of the people you are dealing with here, will eventually come to behave well, and respect boundaries, communicate clearly, and reflect on their own behaviours. I think part of you sees this, or intuits this. As an INFJ, you are capable of picking up on things that others might miss. Or be in denial about.

Your parents being "friends" with her parents is a huge red flag in my opinion. But if you read about narcs, it makes total sense. Narcissists are very good at enmeshments like this.

Not unlike my own experiences with outgrowing FOG and PD antics, my request to have my boundaries respected were also met with "no". And variations on "no". We can assert all the boundaries we want with someone but if they don't want to respect those boundaries -long story short, they won't. They will find ways around them. We end up managing their manipulations of our boundaries. Exhausting.

The toolbox here offers a great overview of how we come to understand this FOG based family system. If you have not looked at it yet, it is definitely worth your time.

What I had to learn about in laws: We are adult children of 2 (or 1, or 3) people who figured largely in our childhood. We are bonded to those people, and those bonds were forged in childhood (i.e. to biological parents, single parents, step parents, or whoever we bonded to as a child).

Your wife will see LC (low contact) differently when it relates to her parents, vs. yours. That is what I'm seeing from where I sit. She's bonded to her parents, and she's unlikely to feel protective of your parents -
whereas you likely feel protective of your parents (and your relationship with them).

Your parent own skills with emotional regulation, conflict management, effective communication, respecting boundaries are probably figuring largely into what you've seen as of late. How well are they handling the situation they are now in? It doesn't sound like they really even understand the situation they are in.

If your mother is not treating your wife well, of course it is going to put you in a very stressful position.

I wish it were not so common - the dynamics you describe. I wish that MIL's knew how to treat their DIL's better. I have come to believe that a lot of MILs these days seem to have a very rigid view of how their DIL should behave. When the DIL doesn't follow this script, the MIL acts out. Some of those MIL's are then able to behave well around their grandchildren - why? I think a lot of that is because she is the type of woman who likes to see herself as "not the problem". It sounds like your mother is invested in being seen as "not the problem here".

"Look at me, being so good to other people (but not my DIL) I'm not the main problem here". It's a song and dance I have seen described over and over through my years of learning what it takes to get out of a messed up family situation full of never ending dramas.

I am sorry you are going through this. It sounds like you have outgrown the antics that others are still playing at, and that your wife needs your support so that she can hopefully explore what is going on for her. She may have a wanted a different kind of MIL than she got. Hopefully therapy will help you to get your bearings so that you do not feel so undone by this situation.

Trees

Hello Trees,

Thank you for taking time to respond so thoroughly. You hit on a lot of really good points to help me clarify all of the challenge parts of these relationship dynamics.

One thing that really stands out is that you confirmed it's a red flag how close my parents & in-laws have become. I agree. This has been a major point I've expressed over the years to my Mom - that my wife & I have requested multiple times that she not share our news with my in-laws. My MIL often uses this information as ammunition against my BPDW.

In addition, many years ago my BPDW felt she was close enough to my Mom to entrust her with some deep, personal stuff about abuse from her own mother. Sadly, my Mom has not shown the loyalty to my wife that you would expect with such information and basically questioned her at the time if my MIL could really have been that bad. My wife definitely desired a MIL that could be a Mom/best friend type since she is lacking that with her own Mom.

As we have taken a step back over the last year, the parents & in-laws suddenly have started attending the same church & having lunch together each week. It's ironic that my MIL is now only concerned with my parent's feelings. In their most recent phone call, she told my wife that my parents are really hurting right now & that we are hurting everyone. She had no concern over how much they have hurt her own daughter & me.

As far as bonding to FOO, this is true. My BPDW has spent her whole life trying to please her Mom. (She gave up on her Dad a long time ago.) Many counselors & friends have suggested she cut off contact completely due to the verbal & emotional abuse, but she has never had the full confidence to do so. That being said, I have never urged her to cut ties fully because I believe that is her decision to make. That is why I recently told my BPDW that it is my decision whether to go low contact or no contact with my parents, and she should respect that. Of course then she tells me how mentally messed up she will be if I still visit my family or hers, and that she will feel like she has to go, too, out of guilt.

The reality is that my FOO has never resolved conflict in a healthy way. The end of conflict usually occurs when my Dad starts getting angry & tells everyone to "straighten up". The only time I've heard from him in the last four months was a short text on my birthday in which he said that if they don't hear from me soon, they will withdraw some education money they were providing for my son's school. He also said he never thought "we would be one of those families" (meaning the kind that has relational problems). He is more concerned with how we look to the outside world than realizing all families have conflict that needs to be resolved. I was too hurt to even respond. Clearly they have no clue how deep these issues go & how much therapy we need. They clearly don't understand why we have said we need our space right now to heal our marriage. I truly think they believe things will just magically go back to normal after some time has passed.

TheStruggleIsReal · December 18, 2022, 09:20:11 AM

Quote from: bloomie on December 16, 2022, 10:21:48 AM
TheStruggleIsReal - Hi and welcome!

Whew! there are a lot of moving parts to the current situation you find your family in. I am thankful you have found us, but so sorry for how hard and complicated these intergenerational relationships are. It certainly has to take a huge toll on both you and your DW.

It warms my heart to read your putting your wife's mental heath and well being as a priority over your parent's. Taking a step back, when boundaries have been violated and needs not met, is wise and allows space to regroup and find the best path forward. It is important to continue addressing your own needs and mental health in this as well. A good therapist will be a neutral 3rd party that you and your wife can look to for some insights and help processing all you have been through.

In terms of the spiritual shaming and demand you 'forgive', accusations you are 'hurting everyone'... I have lived with my faith being used against me in this way - as many others here have - for a very long time now. I just finished a really great book by Lysa Terkeurst called Boundaries and Goodbyes that is so, so good. I can't recommend it more highly, especially for debunking those who use The Bible out of context to manipulate and shame us into getting in line and continue to give them full access to our lives when they refuse to behave responsibly with the access they already have.

I am a grandma and I want to gently point out that the most important responsibility I hold as a grandparent is to love and respect my grandchildren's parents. I respect their wishes, their life choices, their agency over what does and does not work for them and for the kiddos. I cannot love my grandchildren well if I am not loving their parents well. It is just something to think about as you consider if/when/how you may want to go forward regarding access to your child.

My very painful experience has been that if an adult family member cannot manage their behaviors respectfully toward me they will eventually not manage or respect boundaries around my kids. Suggest moving forward with extreme caution around all of that with the guidance of your therapist and full equal input between you and your wife.

Keep coming back and engaging in the community discussions and using all of the resources available.

Hi Bloomie,
Thanks so much for your gracious words of encouragement! It's such a blessing that you would take time to offer your compassion & wisdom from your own life experience.

How incredible that my DW had just ordered the very book you mentioned - Good Boundaries & Goodbyes by Lysa Terkeurst! I started reading it this weekend, and it is fantastic so far. It's definitely confirmation that I'm on the right path!

My MIL definitely utilizes scripture & the faith to attempt to "beat" my DW into submission. It has been this way ever since I've been a part of the family. After most calls & visits, I continue to remind my DW that this is not real Christianity. Boundaries are God's idea & are meant to keep us healthy. If we aren't healthy, it's difficult to be able to live out the purpose that God has instilled in us. I continue to encourage my DW to tell her Mom she will hang up the phone if she continues to be disrespectful. My hope is she is going to work up the courage to do so. She is close.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective as a grandmother. It truly gives me a lot to ponder as we move forward in making decisions about how much access our son has to grandparents. It is definitely something we will discuss in upcoming therapy sessions.

treesgrowslowly · December 18, 2022, 10:18:53 AM

Hi Stuck,

I can appreciate the situation you are in. From what you describe, it is unfortunately, not an uncommon one.

The eldest generation has a rigid idea of what "Family" is and "who we are". as you said, your father is explicit at times about what he expects, and he is clear about the consequences of people not conforming (he will stop paying for things for other family members, things like education).

In a healthy family, the eldest generation does not use their resources to control others. In an unhealthy family, they usually do.

Like you said, they can't see how deep the issues go. No, they are focused on how things look on the surface. How things ARE on the inside, is not what they want to examine. I have not met any older relatives who wanted to examine anything beneath the surface.

People like this tend to believe that if they can successfully project the image of a family with no divorce, no strife, all the kids and grandkids are 'successful' and go to the right place of worship etc.. then that is what matters. They end up in conflict with the family members who want to heal from some of the consequences of that superficial approach to life. Where things like abuse are swept under the rug or rationalized or simply ignored.

Being caught up in a family system like that is hard for those of us who see behind the curtain. We know that for a family to truly be healthy and functioning, people would need to be able to communicate well, solve problems without manipulation, and not play games (such as threatening to go back on a financial agreement to pay for a kid's schooling for something petty).

Yes, you are correct. They do believe that things will "magically go back to normal" after some time has passed. My grandparents operated like this. For decades. I don't think they ever outgrew it. I stopped seeing them years ago. Their own parents had dealt with life like this. This is often referred to as sweeping things under the rug, and it is part of any dysfunctional family system. "We didn't deal with that problem and look, it magically went away".

To those who see behind the curtain, we know that none of the issues went away, they just didn't get dealt with.

I have to say, it sucks. It all sucks. No one wants to end up in these situations. There's a cost to staying in their contact and a cost to pulling away.

As long as they have access to the people they are trying to bully / manipulate, then bullies will continue to well, bully and manipulate. It does not "magically end" unless the bully in the family gets help themselves.

Mostly what happens is that the ones who get fed up and exhausted figure out their own next steps with boundaries. Then they do the work of grieving for the family system they won't ever have.

It is manipulative for your parents call up your wife and then cast your ILs as "the real victims here". You must feel gaslit so so often with those sorts of phone calls coming at you.

These are familiar strategies that are used to keep abusive dynamics in place. The survivors will often be told that their abusers are the real victims here. I had that nonsense thrown at me as well when I went NC.

It sounds like your DW has had some insightful therapists who understood that her mother is never going to become a safe person to have a close relationship with, and that going no contact would give her space to heal. I certainly had to go NC to heal. This forum and community was helpful during that long process. I hope it is helpful to you as well.

Trees

TheStruggleIsReal · December 18, 2022, 10:43:01 AM

Quote from: moglow on December 16, 2022, 12:43:42 PM
Wow - I'm on board with the others here. Forgiveness is a great and necessary thing for all of us, but when it's all one sided and as "the child" you're supposed to just [in their words] respect and take whatever they dish ? I'm gonna have to disagree with them on this one. I'm a huge believer in do unto others regardless of the relationship - treat others as you'd like to be treated, or frankly just leave me be.

Quote... she accused me of being ungrateful and said my Dad's apology should have been "good enough".

Good enough *for that incident* IF he even acknowledged that he overstepped and actually apologized for it maybe. My contention is, an apology without changed behavior is basically useless. It's spraying air freshener over a big ole poo, knowing there will be more.

The fact still remains, we're each of us responsible for our own mental health and behavior. You're not the go-between for others' behavior, no matter who they might be. She [and you] can absolutely vent and try to come to an understanding of how to address things with your respective parents - the immediate family needs still come first. But outside that, you can't control your wife, your parents, her parents or anyone else. If they choose to leave each other be, that's their choice. If you decide your parents are harmful to you, your wife, your children, you're still within your rights to limit interaction with them. If they decide to do better, that could change. Or not. They don't get carte blanche because they're grandparents, is what I'm saying. You want to be rude and disrespectful to me and my spouse? Then maybe I don't want to expose my children to it.

And just to pick a nit here - you didn't "give up" anything when you became Christians. Just because they choose to justify their treatment of you through that mindset, doesn't make it right. Maybe you could gently suggest to your wife sometime, what exactly does she fear from her mother? She's a wife and mother herself, what exactly can her mother do to her if she doesn't allow herself to be walked all over, same as you with yours? They get mad and talk to you behind your backs? They already are. They cut you off? You don't get abused and talked to like you're children. I'm being tongue in cheek serious here - No one has to live that way, not even with parents.

Hi Moglow,
I really appreciate your time & response. In regards to my NPD Dad's apology, he likely was sincere for that incident. However, right after he apologized to me, he immediately changed the subject & started ordering me to
fix some issues with my NPD sister. When he apologized to my DW, he immediately began questioning my DW's health condition. It's like he always has to take the spotlight off of himself & turn it onto someone else. His meddling in our lives has gone on for as long as I can remember. It's just that we waited too long to call him out on it.

In terms of my DW, she reverts back to that 10-year-old little girl whenever she's around or talking with her Mom. Her fear goes back to the physical & verbal abuse she received as a child. Now, she only receives verbal abuse, but she isn't strong enough to put up stronger boundaries with her Mom. Her parents never made the transition to adult-adult relationships. She has at least gone low contact with her, but she still feels obligated to pick up the phone out of fear of being yelled at. I'm hoping our upcoming therapy sessions will help her take additional action to protect her mental health. And I completely agree with you...it's religious manipulation being used by her Mom to justify her & my FOO behavior. After her last phone call with her mom, I spent much time explaining that to her because she was so mentally screwed up for days afterward.

TheStruggleIsReal · December 20, 2022, 07:52:53 AM

Quote from: treesgrowslowly on December 18, 2022, 10:18:53 AM
Hi Stuck,

I can appreciate the situation you are in. From what you describe, it is unfortunately, not an uncommon one.

The eldest generation has a rigid idea of what "Family" is and "who we are". as you said, your father is explicit at times about what he expects, and he is clear about the consequences of people not conforming (he will stop paying for things for other family members, things like education).

In a healthy family, the eldest generation does not use their resources to control others. In an unhealthy family, they usually do.

Like you said, they can't see how deep the issues go. No, they are focused on how things look on the surface. How things ARE on the inside, is not what they want to examine. I have not met any older relatives who wanted to examine anything beneath the surface.

People like this tend to believe that if they can successfully project the image of a family with no divorce, no strife, all the kids and grandkids are 'successful' and go to the right place of worship etc.. then that is what matters. They end up in conflict with the family members who want to heal from some of the consequences of that superficial approach to life. Where things like abuse are swept under the rug or rationalized or simply ignored.

Being caught up in a family system like that is hard for those of us who see behind the curtain. We know that for a family to truly be healthy and functioning, people would need to be able to communicate well, solve problems without manipulation, and not play games (such as threatening to go back on a financial agreement to pay for a kid's schooling for something petty).

Yes, you are correct. They do believe that things will "magically go back to normal" after some time has passed. My grandparents operated like this. For decades. I don't think they ever outgrew it. I stopped seeing them years ago. Their own parents had dealt with life like this. This is often referred to as sweeping things under the rug, and it is part of any dysfunctional family system. "We didn't deal with that problem and look, it magically went away".

To those who see behind the curtain, we know that none of the issues went away, they just didn't get dealt with.

I have to say, it sucks. It all sucks. No one wants to end up in these situations. There's a cost to staying in their contact and a cost to pulling away.

As long as they have access to the people they are trying to bully / manipulate, then bullies will continue to well, bully and manipulate. It does not "magically end" unless the bully in the family gets help themselves.

Mostly what happens is that the ones who get fed up and exhausted figure out their own next steps with boundaries. Then they do the work of grieving for the family system they won't ever have.

It is manipulative for your parents call up your wife and then cast your ILs as "the real victims here". You must feel gaslit so so often with those sorts of phone calls coming at you.

These are familiar strategies that are used to keep abusive dynamics in place. The survivors will often be told that their abusers are the real victims here. I had that nonsense thrown at me as well when I went NC.

It sounds like your DW has had some insightful therapists who understood that her mother is never going to become a safe person to have a close relationship with, and that going no contact would give her space to heal. I certainly had to go NC to heal. This forum and community was helpful during that long process. I hope it is helpful to you as well.

Trees

Trees,
That was really clarifying & well said. You've put into words exactly how I'm feeling regarding both my FOO & my DW's family. The way you describe my parent's & grandparent's generation depicts my family to the T. All of these realizations have hit me in the last few years, as I've been married for many years & had a kid of my own.

Growing up, I really looked up to my grandparents & spent a lot of time talking with them. However, now I see the realities behind the curtain. Both my grandmother & grandfather loved having everything (family, house, material things) wrapped in this "perfect" presentation so that the world would feed them with constant adulation about how great they were. I never saw them discuss family problems with each other or their kids. To this day, my dad & his siblings are still called "the children" and have always jumped as soon as one of my grandparents demanded they act. My grandfather ended up having many health issues & bouts with depression. The depression runs deep in my family and continues being passed through the generations, as it has severely impacted both my Dad & sister.

My Mom never had a real discussion with my Dad about issues between them, that I can recall at least. Instead, she vented about her life to my sister & me. Still to this day, she talks about how miserable her life is and that she wishes she could have done many things differently. She confided in me years ago that she would have left my dad long ago if it weren't for me & my sister or the appearance of how it would look to the community & family. Now, I realize I should not have been the one she shared that with.

My mom & sister talk daily & commiserate with each about their lives. I got tired of listening to the same conversations over-and-over that I finally had to distance myself. Several times, I offered suggestions about how she could develop a new hobby or intentionally do things that bring her joy. Yet, we kept having the same negative conversations year-after-year.

Looking at my in-laws, I see similar behavior patterns in both their marriage & in their own upbringing with their parents. The commonalities between both my family & my in-laws are really striking.

This lack of deep connection & authenticity leaves both my DW & I feeling out of place most of the time.

lkdrymom · December 20, 2022, 12:02:28 PM

I think you need to go NC on BOTH sets of parents for a few months. Neither seem like they are healthy for your immediate family to be around. While in NC your wife needs to work on her recent regression. I have to admit I am not the 'forgive and forget' type of person. Forgiving is acceptable when a person unintentionally hurts you. I have a real issue with forgiving person who intentionally inflicts pain. There is never any incentive to change their ways if they know they will be forgiven.

TheStruggleIsReal · December 21, 2022, 07:31:30 AM

Quote from: lkdrymom on December 20, 2022, 12:02:28 PM
I think you need to go NC on BOTH sets of parents for a few months. Neither seem like they are healthy for your immediate family to be around. While in NC your wife needs to work on her recent regression. I have to admit I am not the 'forgive and forget' type of person. Forgiving is acceptable when a person unintentionally hurts you. I have a real issue with forgiving person who intentionally inflicts pain. There is never any incentive to change their ways if they know they will be forgiven.

Thank you for sharing your feedback. I'm more of the type to forgive quickly. However, the hurt often lingers, and I will usually take a step back from the relationship if it's an ongoing boundary violation or the other party doesn't acknowledge they hurt me or my wife. This is the longest I've ever been NC with my parents (4 months), with the exception of two messages I sent sharing our boundaries. Unfortunately, I don't think they are going to change or willing to acknowledge our boundaries, even though they should have plenty of incentive to work things out with us. After all, they are missing out on precious time with their grandson. My DW has been LC with her parents for many years. She is still working up the courage to put up firmer boundaries with her Mom. We have our first therapy session soon, & I'm hoping this will help her with that process.

bloomie · December 22, 2022, 10:50:39 AM

TheStruggleIsReal - it seems like you and your DW are taking a break and/or limiting contact with these painful inter generational dynamics.

QuoteI'm more of the type to forgive quickly. However, the hurt often lingers, and I will usually take a step back from the relationship if it's an ongoing boundary violation or the other party doesn't acknowledge they hurt me or my wife.

Natural consequences, like you describe here with you stepping back from the relationship when boundaries are violated, are healthy and good self care. And, I know I say this a lot around here, but are what love for ourselves and others actually looks like.

Boundaries with consequences are the best possible hope for relationships to ever be reestablished. Not that we establish those boundaries for that reason. We establish them for ourselves. Being clear on what does and does not work in close relationship with us and living empowered and consistently in the midst of dysfunction is a huge challenge, but is a worthy goal.

Bravo to you!! This is painful and complicated stuff you and your DW are navigating.

1footouttadefog · December 26, 2022, 05:03:27 PM

I completely understand the just like yesterday aspect of a PD memory of being wronged or hurt. They carry a lot of painful experiences like they are still fresh. EMDR therapy helps some folks rewrite such memories in a new way in the brain so they are less painful and more like normal memories.

As to the inlaws gossiping and meddling, a real help wound be to quit feeding the monster. Everything should be on a need to know basis. Just chit chat about recipes weather and other surface topics only.