damaging kindness

[Pepin]

I just found myself completely triggered while attempting to follow a new recipe that was hard.  I've written before about my struggles with food and how CN MIL correlates.  Currently I am working on shedding the weight that I gained over the last several years from over eating in response to the ongoing trauma I dealt with from CN MIL. 

I was triggered remembering how she used always bring over food - whether we asked for it or not.  Or if we hosted a meal, she'd find a way to dominate with her food.  We went through many levels of compromise with her over food until we asked her to just stop.  Bring nothing except herself over, please.  If she didn't comply, the food was unserved and returned home with her until she understood.  And then she turned the tables asking that we come her way so she could feed us or send us home with food if we were just visiting for one of DH's handyman visits.  It was freaking relentless.  FOOD, FOOD, FOOD!!!  ENOUGH!!!

While she believed she was being kind and helpful, she was not.  She was doing her best to keep DH and I dependent on her.  She wanted me in particular to feel invalidated as a wife and mother, thinking that she knew better - that I didn't know how to cook or feed myself -- when really, it came down to the fact that she was wielding her particular cultural cuisine over me that I didn't have much experience in.  Over the years I have done really well with that particular cuisine.  While I don't make what she made, I do make what I and our family like to have and I incorporate that into our international rotation of meals. 

Looking back, I am so ANGRY for what my younger adult self endured from this woman.  She had no right to smother me with her agenda against me and I wish I had known to formulate effective communication to tell her directly: please stop and no thank you!  As an older woman now, it is easier for me to be firm with people but back then...I just wanted to be accepted and let her do what she wanted.  That was so wrong of me.  When it all began, I really thought she was being nice to me.  And then she took it too far.  It was an insult when she showed up on our doorstep with plastic bags of food without telling us - whether or not we had meals planned for the week or had just gone grocery shopping.  It was so important that we eat her food.  And that our food didn't matter or was bought for the wrong price or even at the wrong store.  Mind you, we lived a few towns apart and had different grocery stores to choose from...

Ugh!  I am disgusted with myself for having let food and over eating take over my mind and body because of my hatred for CN MIL.  No more.  She's gone now and I don't ever have to deal with that again.  She knew she could damage me with what seemed to be kindness...."kill them with kindness"....she literally took this to word.  Overweight, heart problems and high blood pressure......thank you CN MIL!  NO MORE.

[Srcyu]

Older female relatives wanting to take charge. I had one of those too. It is confusing when it appears to be done out of kindness.
One Christmas I had recently had a baby. The relative sent Christmas lunch round which was really helpful and thoughtful. We were then invited round for tea. Literally, as we sat at the table she began removing plateful after plateful of food out of the room. She 'needed' that food for someone else who would be visiting .......

I hope you managed to make that new recipe and that it becomes one of your favourites.

[hhaw]

You're winning When you don't turn on yourself....when you aren't judging harshly with expectations.

Would you be angry at a child, pet or friend if they did their level best, imperfectly over so many years? 

Be THAT kind to yourself, Pepin.  Your MIL wins when you aren't kind to yourself, forgiving and pivoting quickly back to the joy in front of you.

Choose joy.  Be here, now.  Keep your head where your feet are.  Don't follow negative thoughts down rabbit holes.

Let them go without tending to them.   

[SonofThunder]

Hi Pepin,

Im sorry you were manipulated and the true victim of attempts at gaslit invalidation by CN MIL.  Im encouraged for you by your recognizing the trigger, identifying the source in detail, declaring it hurtful manipulation behind the facade of 'kindness'  and determining to let that trigger event be your line in the sand.  "NO MORE". Good for you!  I wish you the best in your new goals! 

You wrote:

"She wanted me in particular to feel invalidated as a wife and mother, thinking that she knew better - that I didn't know how to cook or feed myself -- when really, it came down to the fact that she was wielding her particular cultural cuisine over me that I didn't have much experience in."

That is a great statement that made me think of my childhood, but subject different.  My experience was about my lack of interest and skills in being mechanically handy.  Ironically in my later college years and throughout my marriage, I blossomed as a handyman in self-teaching.  Looking back, i now realize that I was never taught (purposefully?), yet my uNPDf expected that because I wad "his son" that it would be natural.  But it was just a way for him to feel powerful at me and my brother's expense.

So your sentence adapted for me is:

"He wanted me in particular to feel invalidated as a son and man, thinking that he knew better - that I didn't know how to be handy -- when really, it came down to the fact that he was wielding his particular skills over me that I didn't have much experience in."   

Your DH grew up in her home with that cuisine.  Did her using the cultural cooking as a way to invalidate you as a wife and mother (your words) also play a role in keeping your DH tethered to her tightly?   That type of relationship around cuisine, tradition, childhood homes, tethers, MIL's getting in between their children's marriages is SO well portrayed in the television show 'Everybody Loves Raymond'. 

The character of Deborah, is creatively invalidated by her MIL in SO many ways, and Raymond never has the backbone to stand up to his mother (Marie).  It drives a wedge between Ray and Deborah constantly.  Although the writing is brilliant and funny, watching it will get my heart-rate up lol, because of the familiar manipulative belittling-tension that existed in my childhood home, between my uNPDf and my mother, and also us as children.  Then also, that same type of gaslighting tension existed in my marriage as well, as I was never good enough as the performance bar raised and changed lanes constantly.

Full circle, I'm encouraged for you in the spirit of your determination to kick the recognized motives of the PD past to the curb.  Thoughts and prayers for your new goals. 

SoT

[notrightinthehead]

I too have a problematic relationship with food. My mother showed her love through food and nobody was allowed to leave her house without feeling stuffed. She was an excellent cook. Not eating her food equaled rejecting her love. She herself had to deal with a lot of self hatred thanks to her overweight.
My husband followed a restrictive diet and I had the option to cook two meals or make the family eat this diet too.  Even though I cooked for him every day, I think in his memory he never once received a decent meal during 30 years of marriage!
I control my weight with exercise but still binge when I am angry, scared, or lonely.  When I feel well emotionally food is not an issue. I enjoy it and eat reasonably healthily.  I love cooking for myself and experiment with new recipes which I usually modify anyway since I don't have a certain spice or ingredient at hand.   I use pretty plates for my lonely meals and say to myself enjoy your meal.
I learned to throw food out, makes it easier that I can compost it. I never forced my kids to finish their plates. They don't have a problem with food or their weight.
Food is such a difficult issue. We need it, yet we can kill ourselves with it.  I had an anorectic friend who was a brilliant cook. She barely tasted her creations but was obsessed with food.
The recovered food addicts make a meal plan for the week which they agree upon with their sponsor and then eat nothing that is not on the food plan.  It allows them to re-gain control over their eating habits. I think that feeling of being in control is so empowering that it becomes the major part of healing.
I hope you find your way back to a healthy relationship with food and get to try many more delicious recipes without having to think of your MIL and only think of the culinary feast ahead which you will enjoy with your family.

[escapingman]

Food is such a control mechanism, both by some people but also the whole cultural idea of socialising over food. My mother used to overfeed me, or underfeed me, depends on which mood she was in. But basically all food she cooked and put out on the table should be eaten, and it was my job together with dad to finish it off. There was never a choice for me about what to eat, the meal plan was completely run by her (and my sister). I am still having nightmares about this particular dish she cooked at least once a week because she and my sister liked it (looking back at it I think they actually liked it so much because I hated it). Despite me begging for something else to eat I was told to eat what was served. HUH.

MIL and FIL also used food for all their dramas, FIL always cooked and MIL always set him up to fail. He was a terrible cook to be honest, but he thought he was running a Michelin star restaurant. I remember once when he had cooked chicken and it was raw in the middle of the piece I had been given. I tried to discretely hide the peace as if I mentioned it he would take offence and storm off, MIL spotted it and could not resist and asked me in front of him if there was something wrong with the food, knowing that she would either get me to eat the raw chicken or for FIL to storm off in a temper. Win win for her.

When living with STBX everything was around food as she had an eating disorder, everything triggered her and she always ate her own food. I was not allowed to cook as everything I did was stinking according to her so I had to try to avoid cooking basically anything I liked. Now when she is out I enjoy cooking everything and I am actually a good cook despite what she always said. Me and DD have no set meal times and we rarely eat together, I don't want to make to much about food and we socialise with each other over a game of football or similar instead. I have read much about eating and the new advice I follow, which works very well for both me and DD is that we eat when we are hungry, we don't eat just because it's lunchtime or time for evening meal, if we are not hungry we just skip or delay the meal. No fuss and no feeling bad because we don't follow the society's norm that you have to have a big breakfast, lunch has to be eaten at noon and then at 7pm everybody sit down for the evening meal. I feel liberated not following these unwritten rules, and I am not piling on weight as only eating when hungry.

[NarcKiddo]

Food has a whole host of problems attached to it for many people. I have had dreadful trouble with my weight over the years. It started when my mother told my boarding school housemistress I was getting fat (I was, probably due to emotional eating) and ordered her to watch my weight. Then during the holidays my mother liked to play "good cop" and let me stuff myself. I reached a healthy weight without effort in my early 20s when I had sole control over what I ate. I reached a healthy weight again a few years ago when I took back control over what I ate. My husband did not feed me out of malice but he was the cook in our household and was not the weight police. He likes his food and is obese and I had my ongoing psych issues from my PDs so I just ate.

However what particularly drew me to this thread was the title. I suffer highly from acts of "kindness" that hurt me. My husband is always trying to be helpful so it has been a constant in my life. I haven't really been able to explain to myself or to him thus far why what is objectively actually kind and helpful I find subjectively intrusive and meddlesome. With therapy I have started to realise that my angry reaction to unsolicited help stems from having a mother who engulfed me so totally that I could never do or think anything for myself.

[Catothecat]

What you write reminds me of my former MIL, Pepin.  A CN to be sure, she took any and every opportunity she could to show me how superior she was to me.  SHE was the perfect wife and mother--my uNPDexh would remind me again and again if I forgot--and she would demonstrate her superiority by cleaning our place unasked, bringing over food unasked, making me clothes she'd sewn (knowing I didn't sew) unasked.  And the thing was, none of it was exactly special.  Her cooking was pretty bad, the clothes she made were suitable for a middle aged woman but not for someone in their 20s, her cleaning efforts were perfunctory and concentrated on what was easiest.  Of course, my exh would see none of that and instead would point out how great his mom was and how I should be more like her.  I was slowly being brainwashed into thinking she really was special and I really should be more like her, even though I knew deep down I wanted to be nothing like her.  But I wanted to please my ex so went along to get along until I got to the breaking point and left him and his family behind.  I can see now what she was up to, but at the time I couldn't and my ignorance was exactly what she wanted.  She knew she could manipulate both me and her son and so she did.  It made her feel good about herself.

[escapingman]

What you write reminds me of my former MIL, Pepin.  A CN to be sure, she took any and every opportunity she could to show me how superior she was to me.  SHE was the perfect wife and mother--my uNPDexh would remind me again and again if I forgot--and she would demonstrate her superiority by cleaning our place unasked, bringing over food unasked, making me clothes she'd sewn (knowing I didn't sew) unasked.  And the thing was, none of it was exactly special.  Her cooking was pretty bad, the clothes she made were suitable for a middle aged woman but not for someone in their 20s, her cleaning efforts were perfunctory and concentrated on what was easiest.  Of course, my exh would see none of that and instead would point out how great his mom was and how I should be more like her.  I was slowly being brainwashed into thinking she really was special and I really should be more like her, even though I knew deep down I wanted to be nothing like her.  But I wanted to please my ex so went along to get along until I got to the breaking point and left him and his family behind.  I can see now what she was up to, but at the time I couldn't and my ignorance was exactly what she wanted.  She knew she could manipulate both me and her son and so she did.  It made her feel good about herself.

Catothecat, I think you just described my MIL. She would always come and do unwanted jobs and then I would be shouted by her, FIL and STBX for being ungrateful. Everything she did was things we didn't need help for, but everything we actually needed help with she refused (as she already done so much for us). In the end even uNPDstbx had enough of her and they both fell out hardly speaking for 10 years (until I had STBX removed from the house and she now lives with MIL).

[Pepin]

I am so thankful for all the replies - all of you just get it with regards to this particular trigger for me - kindness with the intent to damage.  I have so much to respond and will as soon as I have more time.  Know that this is cathartic, even a year after her death, to just get all this out onto the table as I work through it.  I was relentlessly groomed to believe that she was behaving from a place of kindness; this couldn't be farther from the truth.

[Pepin]

Older female relatives wanting to take charge. I had one of those too. It is confusing when it appears to be done out of kindness.
One Christmas I had recently had a baby. The relative sent Christmas lunch round which was really helpful and thoughtful. We were then invited round for tea. Literally, as we sat at the table she began removing plateful after plateful of food out of the room. She 'needed' that food for someone else who would be visiting .......

I hope you managed to make that new recipe and that it becomes one of your favourites.

Eh....the recipe was meh at best.  Probably won't remake. 

Yeah, older female wanting to take charge is the crux of it.  Looking like she is being kind but really is only self serving.  CN MIL turned up the dial when we had our first child and was helpful with food delivery....I did appreciate that.  But where she failed was knowing when to cease the food delivery and also talking to us about our preferences as to whether or not I wanted to continue having her cook food.  While I did tell her that we were good and could handle the cooking ourselves, she didn't listen.  She still brought over food - it was too much, not food we wanted to eat, and it was brought without us knowing.  We were essentially being forced to accommodate her "gifts" because she had taken the time to prepare and bring them.  And DH felt that we would be hurting her feelings if we didn't accept.  Looking back, there were many other opportunities for her to help us out - but she decided that food would be her thing even though DH and I had it under control.  As new parents we weren't struggling to shop and make meals for ourselves and our child....but for whatever reason, she decided we were.  Oddly, she didn't do this for anyone else.....just us. 

[Pepin]

Your MIL wins when you aren't kind to yourself, forgiving and pivoting quickly back to the joy in front of you.

Yeah.....and that was how I survived for many years.  I was struggling to prevent her from winning and in the process was not living my best life.  She was always in the background even if I wasn't seeing her.  Now she is no longer in the background and I don't have to live in vigilance anymore anticipating a visit from her or having to visit her.  Want to have more joy in my life.....the things that I couldn't have before.  Kind of feels like crawling out from under a rock....the light is so bright that I'm wobbly trying to find my footing.  I understand that the first year after death is a bunch of firsts.  The second year is more of a reality that there is no going back and after that it is about learning to live with grief.  Yeah again....I grieved a lot while she was alive for the disastrous relationship she chose to have with me.  And now I am grieving the woman (myself) that had to go through all of that.  I am on the other side but so unhappy about how I got here.  And I won't bring her up around DH.  She's gone and now it is my turn to live with joy. 

[hhaw]

Prpin:

Grieve your loss then put it on the shelf and get busy living your best life, as you can.

You deserve to grieve, but also to take back everything you can possibly take back from MIL, including what you focus on.

I wish for all the joy possible.

Every moment you spend thinking about mil....and what you lost....costs you what you could have in this moment.

Choose joy, over and over.  Be very kind to yourself.

[Pepin]

So your sentence adapted for me is:

"He wanted me in particular to feel invalidated as a son and man, thinking that he knew better - that I didn't know how to be handy -- when really, it came down to the fact that he was wielding his particular skills over me that I didn't have much experience in."   

Your DH grew up in her home with that cuisine.  Did her using the cultural cooking as a way to invalidate you as a wife and mother (your words) also play a role in keeping your DH tethered to her tightly?   That type of relationship around cuisine, tradition, childhood homes, tethers, MIL's getting in between their children's marriages is SO well portrayed in the television show 'Everybody Loves Raymond'.

SoT The way our elders wielded what they knew over us was just unkind.  I am also not of CN MIL's culture and what she did was unfair.

To answer the second part, CN MIL absolutely used her cooking to keep DH tethered to her.  I didn't know that it had such an impact on him and that it also was the basis for keeping him close when he was younger - because when I met him as a young man, he was independent of how she had raised him and lived far away - until we agreed to move closer to her.  He hadn't had access to her cooking for years. 

What I do know is that food was her way of approving of him.  They grew up poor.  They struggled.  Any help that the children could offer was rewarded with food.  DH's parents really needed help across the board just to survive; both CN MIL and FIL struggled to embrace maturity while raising their family and ultimately started relying on their children rather than growing up and being parents. 

Food signified that there was enough money.  And even after CN MIL had enough money, she just couldn't leave behind that mindset because she knew that was how she could keep DH close.  She needed him to keep taking care of things that she didn't want to own up and do!  Yes, he was tethered to her through food.

Prior to her death, DH was realizing that her cuisine was possibly going to go with her and he started to attempt some dishes that he liked -- or that he knew SHE liked.  He was suddenly making dishes to please her.  It was and continues to be challenging for him.  He was never formally taught anything about cooking their cultural cuisine....he basically just showed up to eat and to be rewarded for being a good son.  CN MIL never offered to show him anything -- because she knew that she wouldn't have a reward for him anymore after all the other things he had to do for her.  These PDs really play their game deep.... 

[Pepin]

I too have a problematic relationship with food. My mother showed her love through food and nobody was allowed to leave her house without feeling stuffed. She was an excellent cook. Not eating her food equaled rejecting her love. She herself had to deal with a lot of self hatred thanks to her overweight.

This resonates.  CN MIL believed that she was showing love through food, rather than other regular avenues.  She was mostly an emotionless individual.  No hugs, no words of encouragement, a general lack of empathy.  Laughed at the wrong times, too.  She was a good cook to a degree.  But after a few years things started to not taste good that she made.  DH claimed that perhaps her senses were declining with regards to taste.  IDK....if you make the same recipes over and over, wouldn't you automatically make it the same every time?  Both DH and I ended up tossing things she made us because of the taste.  And I now wonder if that was on purpose?   

As for CN MIL's health, it wasn't very good overall since I've known her for nearly 30 years.  And it was because she refused to be accountable for her health.  One could argue that for her size she was a bit on the pudgy side....nothing terribly bad -- but she also didn't eat well or exercise.  And I am certain that it bothered her to her core that I was this younger, active and fit woman.  She wanted to be that way, too.  And overwhelming us with food was her power play.  She ALSO wanted her son to be the fat little boy he used to be, not the healthier man he had become. 

I will never forget the time when we were visiting when she was unwell and DH asked her why she wasn't eating.  She replied: because I don't want to get fat.   

[Pepin]

Food is such a control mechanism, both by some people but also the whole cultural idea of socialising over food.

I have read much about eating and the new advice I follow, which works very well for both me and DD is that we eat when we are hungry, we don't eat just because it's lunchtime or time for evening meal, if we are not hungry we just skip or delay the meal. No fuss and no feeling bad because we don't follow the society's norm that you have to have a big breakfast, lunch has to be eaten at noon and then at 7pm everybody sit down for the evening meal. I feel liberated not following these unwritten rules, and I am not piling on weight as only eating when hungry.

YES!!!  So much stress around food and silly expectations and cultural "norms".  Over the last number of years I was not listening to my body and just eating.  I've eaten far too much for my size and even my age.  My younger self also ate too much without listening.  I ate because it would have been rude not to when CN MIL was around.  If I didn't want to experience her side eye, I'd have to eat.  "Eat more, take more, too skinny, you hungry...."  NO!!!

Now I am working hard to listen to my body about when to eat and how much.  And no more guilt.  She isn't around to dump off her food nor can she criticize me.  Though in her final years I was pretty good at shutting her whining down.  I had finally learned the word NO.   

[Pepin]

What you write reminds me of my former MIL, Pepin.  A CN to be sure, she took any and every opportunity she could to show me how superior she was to me.  SHE was the perfect wife and mother--my uNPDexh would remind me again and again if I forgot--and she would demonstrate her superiority by cleaning our place unasked, bringing over food unasked, making me clothes she'd sewn (knowing I didn't sew) unasked.  And the thing was, none of it was exactly special.  Her cooking was pretty bad, the clothes she made were suitable for a middle aged woman but not for someone in their 20s, her cleaning efforts were perfunctory and concentrated on what was easiest.  Of course, my exh would see none of that and instead would point out how great his mom was and how I should be more like her.  I was slowly being brainwashed into thinking she really was special and I really should be more like her, even though I knew deep down I wanted to be nothing like her.  But I wanted to please my ex so went along to get along until I got to the breaking point and left him and his family behind.  I can see now what she was up to, but at the time I couldn't and my ignorance was exactly what she wanted.  She knew she could manipulate both me and her son and so she did.  It made her feel good about herself.

All of this....except that I didn't get the sense that she was the perfect wife and mother from DH; rather, what she lacked, was not mentioned.  Therefore, the few things that she could do well -- or used to do well in her younger years, were highlighted. 

I hated myself for going along with what my DH "saw" in her.  She wasn't special just because she could show up with food or because she could find a bag oranges cheaper somewhere else.  Yet, she held herself to that imaginary high standard believing that a bag of oranges for a dollar less was the right and only way to buy food.  And that she needed to show up with warm food she had just made as if we were starving and struggling to feed ourselves -- when we had just eaten lunch.

Like you, she was counting on my ignorance to keep her status elevated....and that is where she failed.  I was watching her every move, questioning her behavior, staying a few steps ahead after learning from my mistakes...and in the end, there was no relationship to be had.  She had no idea who I was nor did she ever care to know.  She just wanted to wield control and keep my in a box so she could have her son's attention.   

[Pepin]

However what particularly drew me to this thread was the title. I suffer highly from acts of "kindness" that hurt me. My husband is always trying to be helpful so it has been a constant in my life. I haven't really been able to explain to myself or to him thus far why what is objectively actually kind and helpful I find subjectively intrusive and meddlesome. With therapy I have started to realise that my angry reaction to unsolicited help stems from having a mother who engulfed me so totally that I could never do or think anything for myself.

Yeah....this is deep and I am sorry.  I grew up in a highly dysfunctional home and food was never used as a power play.  There was lots of food available but never before had I been "gifted" food or rewarded with food for the exchange of my time.  And this is where it gets incredibly covert that CN MIL was able to pull off:  she made us believe that her coming over was an inconvenience and that her bringing food was a way to make up for it.  Was she inconvenient?  She sure was.  She mostly came over under the guise that she wanted to see the kids but instead she'd have DH perform a variety of paperwork tasks that she herself didn't want to be bothered with.  And to cover for all of this was a cake.  We thought she was coming over as a grandma.....but she really wanted DH to do her busywork instead.....and before we could protest, there would be the food.  Every. Single. Damn. Time.  And of course DH couldn't do anything about it because he liked what she brought over.  Fried whatever it was -- he couldn't resist.  She'd be standing at the door with her smelly food and a plastic bag of mail that she needed him to go through for her under the pretense that she was visiting the grandkids.  Ha!  She barely even interacted with them.  It was: here is the food I made while you go though my mail and oh look at the time, hi kids, time to go home!   

Can DH make any of the food that she makes?  Nope.  But he sure was good at taking care of all the things she as an adult and parent, should have been doing herself.  He didn't have time to learn how to cook what she made because he was so busy doing her paperwork and making calls on her behalf.  And this was exactly her guise towards me after I married DH.....to keep his attention away from me and our kids.  Rather than be a husband and a father, he was busy taking care of his mother and being rewarded with oven fried chicken.  And the household smelled so bad when she visited from her oily food....