Is this gaslighting?

[Justanotherlostgirl1]

I've read lots about gaslighting but I always feel like it doesn't apply to me so getting others perspectives is helpful. Is this gaslighting?

Telling me to do something positive while yelling but saying they meant to really do it. (Ex: go make friends then, I don't care what you do - but saying they mean to go make friends)

Telling me to do something, when I do it that way they later get angry at me for doing the very thing they suggested. Even when provided with proof (such as text messages) they refuse to calm down. They don't say "I didn't say that", they just remain angry about it.

Implying that I'm cheating on them because the apps on my phone send notifications but when I try to show them the notifications looking away and saying they value my privacy, then 5 minutes later circling back around to say I never let them see my phone but theirs is totally open to me. Then 5 min after that, circling back around to say I always look at their phone and messages (untrue)

Saying nobody understands their feelings, but doing this almost daily so that I am so confused what their feelings actually are that I couldn't understand them if I wanted to.

Usually gaslighting examples are criticisms and put downs about being sensitive. I know blame is also a big one, which is happening here. Whenever I bring logic into this and show him messages where he told me to do the things he is angry about, his response isn't "you're just sensitive". It's "you do you" (but apparently that is said positively even though it's clear it has a negative connotation.) the whole thing leaves me absolutely baffled because I don't understand how another person can communicate like this and justify themselves in it and paint me as the bad guy. I suppose that's what gaslighting is meant to do, but I just want to be sure. He currently wants to break up because I went to a grocery store on my late lunch break and didn't invite him or tell him my location. He's angry I didn't tell him where I was going because I didn't send him a message and think of him and "he lets me do whatever I want but I should tell him." He has been angry for a month, but it's my fault I feel so controlled by him, because according to him he is not controlling and "let's" me be independent. When I do do something without him it is met with weeks long silent treatments and door slamming/throwing things about etc.  Then when I tell him there are other ways to control someone that don't involve outright telling them (like getting angry and being passive aggressive) he turns the conversation to my other faults. If I use logic on one issue, he just turns it to another. Predictably, all of this is my fault because he's not controlling me and I am just assuming that LOL. He gets mad at me for calling him controlling when he is, but he doesn't say I can't do things outright, so assuming the implied meaning of things is my fault, when he clearly meant to say and do things the way he did. It's the equivalent of telling someone to go f themselves, then turning around and saying you meant it in a nice way. I'm so confused.

If you have examples from your own lives it would be helpful. This is obviously manipulation of some kind I just feel a need to define it for my own sanity.

[losingmyself]

Seems like gaslighting, projection, all sorts of things that are bad for your psyche.
Check out Dr Ramani's glossary of terms, it's very helpful.
Just remember, your feelings are your own. Down let them talk you into a reality that isn't true. That's gaslighting, and I let it confuse me and keep me stuck for wayyyyy too long.
Also, you don't need to know the exact term for what it is that he's doing. If it hurts, it isn't love... That's from Kris Godinez.
Accept that you are not ever going to get him to change, therefore don't waste your time and energy on trying to get him to understand. I experienced much more calm in my house when I made the conscience decision to stop trying to make things fair and right. They just are not going to be.
Read an use the toolbox. MC and GR are saviors but not the answer to a happy life.
For me, and many more, it's getting away.  This is something that I haven't found the strength to do yet, but I'm working toward it. Soon...

[square]

Some possible relevant terms:

Blame shifting, scapegoating
Circular conversations
Emotional blackmail (tell me x or I'll make you miserable for weeks)
Silent treatment
Passive aggression
Controlling and hypervigilent behavior
Baiting (maybe)
Double bind (maybe)

Feelings before facts (I feel this way so you must have done something wrong)

[SeaBreeze]

Gaslighting can take a few forms. It can fall under the umbrella of Crazy Making. It can be part of a larger habitual use of lying, control, manipulation. And it can be a tactic all on its own.

Here are examples from my 24- year marriage. uNPDh has a consistent pattern of:

1. Telling me something, or doing something, then claims that is not what he said or did...or that he never even said or did it at all! (He turned on the bedroom light in the middle of the night once. Then says I dreamed it.)

2. NOT telling me something, but then swears he did, and that I need to get my ears and/or brain checked out by a doctor. This can range from minor things like a grocery list item, to major things. The craziest such example: he says he DID finally confront his parents once about their abuse, and they reacted badly, and that he TOLD me what happened, that he was left completely decimated for days, but I wasn't paying attention and didn't care??? Um, I would definitely have paid attention to THAT and would remember??? Seriously!!!

3. Keys or other needed items go missing. Then turn up in odd places or he saves the day by finding it for me. Yes, I misplace things, especially when stressed. Yes, sometimes odd places. But once I find it, I remember "oh yeah, I had my keys when I looked in the pantry to see what we need at the store and set them down." But I've had things turn up in WEIRD places where I haven't been in the house, usually when he and I have argued. This dates back to our 20s, before it could be blamed on middle-age forgetfulness. I can't prove it, of course. Hmmm....

4. Casually mentioning (or what's known as dog whistling) almost word-for-word something I spoke, texted, or emailed to another person in confidence, usually about our relationship. I know he was either hacking or recording me, and also had some flying monkeys, but I could never prove it and without looking paranoid or hysterical myself. This behavior seems to have dropped off in recent years (I'm still very cautious posting here on Out of the FOG). Other members here have been hacked or recorded, so it's not far-fetched at all.

In uNPDh's "defense" (though I'm not excusing him) he himself may not remember doing or saying these things? (I can certainly understand that if he DID confront his parents, he may have disassociated.) But other things are quite intentional (like hacking my email, or hiding my keys.)

Basically, if/when you find yourself questioning your own memory of events, or doubting your own sanity, and/or suspect your partner is f'ing with you, but can't prove it and think you'll sound crazy telling others.... There is a good chance you are being gaslit. Definitely read The Tools. And journal, document, record...go back and read or listen later. Hope these examples and suggestions shed some light!

[Justanotherlostgirl1]

Thanks for your replies everyone. It's not that I necessarily need to know, it's just for my own curiosity and where people here have dealt with this stuff, it's easier for you all to give me insights.

Personally, and I'm not sure if this is narcissistic stuff or if a lot of it is a delusional jealousy. He is constantly making up things in his head about my infidelity that aren't real. I've never cheated on him or even talked to other men but he is accusing me of getting naked in hot tubs with people, and having sex with random men when I went to a friends bday party. Even when presented with concrete evidence (like my Google location and photos of my sleeping with my child and video calls showing I'm at home) he refuses to believe it's the truth. It is actually, imo, well into a delusional state. It doesn't matter what I say. Defending myself only makes him think I'm lying more, but not defending myself and saying "you're not going to believe me so I see no point in arguing" also results in him thinking I'm cheating. It is a very frustrating and almost constant roller coaster.

[Justanotherlostgirl1]

Lostgirl,

What you just described in that last post sounds like classic narcissism. Gaslighting, unfair accusations, making you defend yourself. It's horrible stuff.

Please remember, you have NO obligation to defend yourself. I read somewhere that "defending and explaining yourself is the act of a subordinate." You know the truth, you don't have to convince him of it.

PDs don't care about truth. They only care about being right, and their emotions are their reality. Stop trying to explain yourself and showing him evidence. It will never work.

I remember some video talks about arguing with a narcissist about if your sweater is blue. I think maybe it was Dr. Ramani. Your sweater could obviously be blue, but the narcissist says "no, the sweater is pink" just to pick a fight. No amount of discussion will change their mind. The example is silly, but the point is, facts and logic have ZERO effect on a PD. Their emotions are their reality. It's taken me a long time to realize this.

Next time he accuses you of this, I suggest a response like, "I understand you feel that way. It's not true, but I'm not going to try and convince you. I know the truth and I feel comfortable with it." Then exit the room if you can.

You might look up Dr. Les Carter's "calm confidence." He talks about calmly and factually stating the truth once, then moving on.

Don't expect a good response from him to this. He will rage and accuse you all the more. Your response is for YOU, not for him.

Bottom line, he's going to think you're cheating no matter what. Don't try and change his mind. Stand firm in who you are and what you know to be true.

I really find myself confused on which it is (again it doesn't matter much in the end really), just because he stays so firm in his beliefs (possible delusions) even when presented with clear evidence against it and it just keeps escalating. One thing is when I kind of catch him he always redirects back to me in another way. Like I asked him if he genuinely believes the accusations, even when he is calm, and that conversation somehow ended with me being a liar for saying I wasn't planning to meet my friend this weekend then changed my plans. That seems to be classic narcissism to me.  But then he does things I've never really heard or seen PDs do in my experience, like waking me up at 3am to accuse me of cheating while he slept, or finding a mat arranged differently than it was when he came home so it obviously means I had someone at the house when I was at work all day. Or our outside security cam goes off while he's at work and he assumes my "boyfriend" is over and this proves it. Or he stalks my social media then picks out innocent photos or stuff that was deleted due to content and accuses me of cheating because he can no longer see the images so it must be from my bf and I deleted them.  I feel like if he is delusional this could escalate to a scarier level, but if he is just doing his PD stuff that I feel a greater level of comfort because I've dealt with one before but just in a different way. That's obviously not true but I just seem to feel more comfortable if he was a PD.

I'm so confused.  I said that to him last night. It doesn't matter what I say. "I know I didn't cheat on you and I don't lie to you. I know who I am. You believe what you want to." Still the accusations fly so I put down my phone as I'm away from him this weekend. Then he calls me accusing me of deleting him from my contacts. I told him I was going to bed and he continued to text and call for over an hour afterwards. He told me only a few hrs before that where he was had spotty cell service so he probably wouldn't be able to call or text. So I got blamed for the cell phone network.  It's just unreal stuff.

I don't know how to not talk back and not be angry. I feel like I put up with 10 years of absolute hell with my exPD and this person knew my story and promised to not be another PD. And I believed them. I don't know if I'm more mad at them or myself but I really cannot stop being mad that I am stuck here once again with another uncaring jerk. I honestly do not know how most of you do it on this forum. I've only been here for a few years and I'm going absolutely batty. Everyone here is incredibly brave and amazing for putting up with all of this for years.

Thanks for replying and giving me some perspective and more to think about.

[Poison Ivy]

Can you get unstuck?

[Justanotherlostgirl1]

Can you get unstuck?

I can in a few months. My child is going to school where we live. I'd have to move back in with my parents, leave an amazing government job with all the benefits and displace my child from school to get away. It really sucks, but it is what it is. I think he's itching to kick me out though. My guess is he has found another supply because he really seems to want me gone with these constant and almost daily accusations. I'm not sure if he knows that the thing he seems to be trying to prevent (me cheating) is pushing me away, or if he actually knows and is doing this on purpose to make me feel crazy and leave.

The accusations are getting wilder and wilder by the day.

[notrightinthehead]

Gosh! There is a child involved in this situation. You wrote, you have an amazing job, maybe you could find accommodation for yourself and your child in the area you are now,  even if it is just temporary, just to get a break from the control and accusations for a while. Once you have a little distance, you will be able to think more clearly and then you can decide what your next step will be.

[Justanotherlostgirl1]

Gosh! There is a child involved in this situation. You wrote, you have an amazing job, maybe you could find accommodation for yourself and your child in the area you are now,  even if it is just temporary, just to get a break from the control and accusations for a while. Once you have a little distance, you will be able to think more clearly and then you can decide what your next step will be.

Yes my child is involved in the situation unfortunately. The child isn't his, luckily, so I can go when I want. However my job does have some evening hours, and I don't know anyone in the area, so I have nobody to pick my child up on those days if I continue with my job. Luckily, both my partner and I are able to keep the situation away from my child. The fighting usually happens when my child is asleep.

Im not sure if you remember me, I've been here for a few years. My child's father was not a good person and I had to leave and go to another country to get away from him. I feel absolutely awful for my child. They have been displaced and now once again have to live through something awful and they have no control over the situation at all. It's totally my own fault for my child being involved in this and the guilt I feel regarding putting my child yet again in a volatile situation is immense. I really need this job for a few reasons, most of all being healthcare that I don't have without it. Kids are constantly sick and this really helps my child to get great healthcare. Im actively applying for other jobs  in the area my family is.

Im actually starting to think that im maybe the narcissist. My ex was a possible PD, my father is a possible PD and now my bf is something, I don't know what. It seems so unlikely to me that I would have this many encounters in my life with these people without there being something severely wrong with me as well. I will definitely be leaving my current bf, I've made up my mind on that. It's just finding the opportunity that gets me out of here that im waiting for.

[notrightinthehead]

Maybe there is something seriously wrong with your red flag detector. Maybe you are a kind and trusting person with low self esteem and a willingness to interpret bad behavior as love? I am so sorry you got yourself in yet another relationship that is explosive. But I understand. All my serious relationships were with difficult men. I seem to be drawn to them. Only after I started the long and painful journey of self exploration and self healing was I able to see my part in the abuse I tolerated.
I hope you will find help for yourself and the strength to work on a better set up. Are you implementing the tools from the Toolbox when interacting with your partner?

[Justanotherlostgirl1]

Maybe there is something seriously wrong with your red flag detector. Maybe you are a kind and trusting person with low self esteem and a willingness to interpret bad behavior as love? I am so sorry you got yourself in yet another relationship that is explosive. But I understand. All my serious relationships were with difficult men. I seem to be drawn to them. Only after I started the long and painful journey of self exploration and self healing was I able to see my part in the abuse I tolerated.
I hope you will find help for yourself and the strength to work on a better set up. Are you implementing the tools from the Toolbox when interacting with your partner?

I'm so sorry you've been through this too. The last time I left I thought maybe it was just because I was in another country and I didn't understand the culture so I chose the wrong person, but I see now that that is not the case.

I am now trying the toolbox. He woke me up at 6am to start screaming at me about how I'm a liar because I said I wasn't going to my friends house, then changed my mind and went there. Plans change, but apparently that makes me a liar. I tried what user said above, telling him that I understand he feels that way but I know I'm not a cheater or a liar, so I can just accept things. That didn't go well, he flew into a rage going around slamming things, asking me when I was leaving, telling me to go find my other boyfriend and following me around screaming. I tried to use MC, whatever he said I just said "ok" and that didn't seem to help, it seemed to make him rage even more. I will attempt to start GR, and to just be generally flat, and continue to just use MC and not really respond to whatever it is he's saying. When he woke me up I just said "could we talk about this later?" But he continued. Hopefully if I can implement these techniques better it can work a bit, but he seems to catch me off guard. He had been using stonewalling/silent treatment, but he is used to me fighting him against the accusations and getting upset, so when I seemed not to care, he just seemed to escalate. I'll just continue using it, because I really don't know what else to do. He does things to get a rise out of me. I don't know how long he will continue to do this before the GR actually starts to calm him down?

I just want to get to June, so my child will be out of school, but I think today I may enquirer on a babysitting website if any babysitters would pick my child up from school because honestly, I'd just like to be done with things. This level of drama and tantrum is so difficult to live with. He goes through this cycle every week/other week if I don't comply with his every demand and he can't control me. It's exhausting. Perhaps I'll have to call taxi companies and ask if I could have my son dropped at an apartment by taxi for a babysitter? I don't know, I am trying to think of everything I can to escape this literal hell.

I hope that you've finally found some peace? Are you still with your abuser?

[Justanotherlostgirl1]

Does anyone have a suggestion for what to say when he starts accusing me that would be MC?

Something like "I hear what you're saying and I'm sorry you feel that way" and then kind of use the broken record technique over and over again with it? I'm not sure how to bring him down from being so aggressive and I don't feel like just responding with "ok" when he is in such an angry state will help much. Just a phrase I can repeat over and over again in several different ways to calm him down a bit without him having something to latch on to to try to provoke me into getting upset?

If he were not upset, I think I could maintain medium chill quite easily, but I first need to bring him down from the high he is on at this moment and get things to a more moderate zone for the moment. I thought about just apologizing so I don't have to deal with it any longer but that will likely just feed into everything more.

[SonofThunder]

Does anyone have a suggestion for what to say when he starts accusing me that would be MC?

Something like "I hear what you're saying and I'm sorry you feel that way" and then kind of use the broken record technique over and over again with it? I'm not sure how to bring him down from being so aggressive and I don't feel like just responding with "ok" when he is in such an angry state will help much. Just a phrase I can repeat over and over again in several different ways to calm him down a bit without him having something to latch on to to try to provoke me into getting upset?

If he were not upset, I think I could maintain medium chill quite easily, but I first need to bring him down from the high he is on at this moment and get things to a more moderate zone for the moment. I thought about just apologizing so I don't have to deal with it any longer but that will likely just feed into everything more.

JALG,

In proper boundaries, I can only control myself, not the actions or reactions of another adult human.  You wrote:

"I'm not sure how to bring him down from being so aggressive..."  and also "....in several different ways to calm him down a bit.."

You also wrote:
"...but I first need to bring him down from the high he is on at this moment and get things to a more moderate zone"

All three of those are the opposite of my role in self-protective boundaries.  Rather, removing myself physically from aggressive adult humans is my self-protective role.  I am not required to give advance notice of my self-protection. 

So if it was me in your situation, I would

A: State my initial calm MC, noJADE statement. If aggression continues then:

B: Depart from the room where the aggressor is located and state my desire to be alone (i do not tell the aggressor what to do, but only my desire for myself).  If aggressor follows:

C: Leave the scene in a car or on foot.  If the aggressor follows:

D: Call the police and inform them what is occurring as I drive/walk to safe zone (fire department, police station etc)

Having been here on Out of the FOG since your original arrival, I know how bold and smart you were in planning your departure from your previous abusive relationship. I encourage you to tap into that same strength, confidence and quiet calculated intelligence to remove both yourself and your child, asap, from this aggressive partner and into permanently safer surroundings. 

Wishing you boldness in boundaries,

SoT

[SeaBreeze]

Hmm, it sounds not only like gaslighting but possible projection. If he's cheating, he may then assume you're cheating and/or accuse you to distract from his own misdeeds. It also sounds like he's subjecting you to sleep deprivation, which is a form of both physical and psychological abuse. Can you safely remove yourself and your child when he wakes you up late at night or early in the morning?  (SOT's tips on removing yourself from this situation  are excellent!)

I'm sorry you're dealing with all this after escaping a previous PD partner. I left my first uNPDh (overt/grandiose narc) and his entire cult-like PD family, after only 5 years, and with 2 small children and no job or driver license. Only to fall into what has now been a 24 year marriage to 2nd uNPDh (covert/passive until he's angry). 3 kids are all grown and moved out, I have a good job, a nice car, and yet... it's been harder to leave. I am trying to conjure that brave young mother I was when I left the first PD husband. So I can totally relate to your "out of the frying pan, into the fire" experience. I hope you can get out sooner from this 2nd PD relationship than I have. 

[Justanotherlostgirl1]

Well, the good news is he seems to want things to be done because I never think of him and only myself!!!

He's going to give me a couple of months to find a place so hopefully I can just keep things friendly and separate until that time and he will calm down. I doubt it but anyway.

I am hoping against all hope I will be able to have just a tiny bit of peace until I am able to get some money for a security deposit for a place of my own.

Thank you guys for your support thus far. I'm sure I'll be back in less than 24 hrs honestly 🤣