How to set boundaries? I see so much advice on when or why, but not how

[anonhand]

Hi all, I'll get straight to the point rather than giving a back story. I am an adult with emotionally immature parents - the narcissist father - who is the only one allowed to have a voice and feelings - and the enabling, flying monkey mother.

I have reached a point that I cannot continue our dynamic for my own mental well-being. I want to communicate some boundaries, but I'm not sure how to do this. Is there a type of communication that has worked best for you - eg email? And how to you brace yourself and handle the reactions? I'd rather not end up breaking the relationship all together.

My boundaries will include things like taking some things off topic (my son's health for example), and no longer having a shared text chat with both parents (my mum doesn't have a private way to text without my dad involved). I also do not want unsolicited advice, I need to keep things on a superficial level going forward.

Thank you all.

[xredshoesx]

i'm sorry you're dealing with this treatment.

what worked with me with our MIL is when she crosses into territory we don't want to discuss with her we use specific responses along these lines.  we never sat her down or communicated with her we were doing this either.

i understand that's your feeling/ opinion, however we're not discussing that right now
that won't work for us with our schedule right now (when being asked to commute 6 hours round trip to her 3rd wedding- we did send a nice gift b/c it was in the middle of covid)
i understand you're upset we can't fix that for you (for a time she was angling to live with us) but i know you'll figure something out that works better.

MIL won't communicate with me directly at all at this point and DH only engages her by text so if he does get tired of her he just stops texting back.  i got out of the family group text a while ago after it got awkward and she didn't speak with me for like 2 holiday cycles.

i use similar responses on my job,  a favorite is, that sounds like a 'you' problem and not a 'we' problem.  let me know how you decide to fix it.

[xredshoesx]

i'm sorry you're dealing with this treatment.

what worked with me with our MIL is when she crosses into territory we don't want to discuss with her we use specific responses along these lines.  we never sat her down or communicated with her we were doing this either.

i understand that's your feeling/ opinion, however we're not discussing that right now
that won't work for us with our schedule right now (when being asked to commute 6 hours round trip to her 3rd wedding- we did send a nice gift b/c it was in the middle of covid)
i understand you're upset we can't fix that for you (for a time she was angling to live with us) but i know you'll figure something out that works better.

MIL won't communicate with me directly at all at this point and DH only engages her by text so if he does get tired of her he just stops texting back.  i got out of the family group text a while ago after it got awkward and she didn't speak with me for like 2 holiday cycles.

i use similar responses on my job,  a favorite is, that sounds like a 'you' problem and not a 'we' problem.  let me know how you decide to fix it.

hope this helps

[Blueberry Pancakes]

Good question. What I think of boundaries is that they are for you and what you decide to allow in your life. I do not believe they are for requests or rules that you inform others to abide by. I think in doing so, you remain the one who regulates the dynamics and are not at the whims of others.
   
I am still learning about boundaries, but I think there is not one approach that fits for everyone. Maybe we just try a few things and see what works and keep going with that. I do believe however boundaries are not just what you communicate once and are done. I think they are what you repeatedly enforce by how you live and thereby show others. They either get it and things will flow along, or they push against it and it is rocky. 

I communicate my boundaries verbally because I know my FOO will take anything I write and show it to others to smear me. I keep it short and show no emotion. I say things like "I am not talking about that". When they make requests of me that I am not going to do I say "that is not possible." When they get mad and make demands I have said "that is all that is important for you to know." I do not explain my reasons, I just express my limit. 

I find my FOO gets mad at me still all the time, regardless of boundaries. So it did not change those dynamics. I just respond differently to my FOO. I remain VVVLC.

[escapingman]

I can't enforce any boundaries with my FOO and the only way that works for me is low contact. No point telling someone what you won't accept when they ignore it anyway.

[FromTheSwamp]

An example of a boundary that worked for me:  Used to be, whenever I would visit, my parents would get in a fight, Dad would storm out, and I would hold Mom's hand while she cried about it.  My boundary was that I would no longer do this. Instead, the fight would start, I'd get up and go to the bathroom, or just leave the room. 

They lost the payoff from the fights, when I wasn't there to see it, and when I'd go back to the room they were in, the fight would have evaporated instead of escalating.  It was just like two toddlers having a tantrum for attention. 

I never explained anything to them.  That wouldn't have worked.  Probably the opposite.

[bloomie]

anonhand - you are asking a really good question. It helps me a lot to have real life examples of what it looks like to stick to our limits and boundaries.

I think of boundaries as something I physically live out and verbally address when I absolutely have to. It has taken me some time to do this as a savvy and empowered way instead of responding too strongly, which is out of character for me, when backed into a corner by extremely verbally dominant and aggressive family members.

So, one very important boundary I began to live out was to put certain elders and difficult family members on an info diet. I don't communicate about anything below the level of a teaspoon or need to know. So, like the protection you want to put around your son's health... I stopped communicating with my own family members about those types of things. When they came up, and you had better believe they have, I was vague and noncommittal and redirected the conversation to surface level things.

I learned phrases to have on hand to respond to unsolicited advice or accusation and I also use a few seconds of silence and then change the subject to the weather or the garden I just planted. Another great phrase I like that has helped me is: "That may be but,"  So, recently when scheduled for surgery and I had to let one family member know about it, they made it clear they planned to share my personal medical info with other family members and her church prayer chain

The conversation went something like this:

Me: "I won't be able to drive you to xyz for a few weeks I am having surgery."
after much discussion about how inconvenient this would be for them and what were they going to do 
Them: "Well, I will let the church know and a certain relative know so they can pray for you."
Me: "I am not comfortable with you sharing this with anyone else. Those I am most close to already know."
Fury and outrage....
Them: "Well, you've never said anything when I've asked for prayer for things for your family before! And, I'm not going to lie for you!!!!" 
Me: "That may be but, my personal medical info is confidential and mine to share." completely ignoring the faux outrageous inference I was demanding she lie for me when I asked for my private life to stay private.

Limiting the frequency and duration of contact in person, by phone, via text and email. If the conversation gets icky, leave the room, house, conversation. "oh, goodness the time... I've got to go." Not adding qualifiers to your statements has been a big one for me. When declining anything not to add a reason or excuse so that they can argue with you and push back on you by saying: "I won't be able do that." "That won't work for me."

Those are all ways that we set boundaries. Learning to be okay when there is push back and work with the attempts to shame or breech our defenses are all really powerful ways to develop into someone who communicates with confidence and grace, knows when to speak and when it will not be productive, knows when to choose well placed silence or defer with skill and gentle humor, and know when to look someone in the eyes and speak firmly and with conviction and shut that nonsense down.

More than anything, what boundaries look like for me is knowing myself and developing respectful, powerful ways of engaging or disengaging with anyone who is crossing a line I have in my life. AND being patient and gentle with myself as I flub things up or go to trauma responses and give into my starting gate responses to freeze or fawn.

Many of us didn't learn how to handle our parents' or others displeasure with us. We didn't learn to handle the unreasonable expectations and demands for every part of our lives to be an open book to them while withholding from us that is often the unrealistic and unhealthy dynamic in certain family systems.

Stepping out of that dynamic without setting the entire relationship ablaze is difficult. That is why we need a toolset and support. The toolbox above is so great if it has been awhile since you looked through it. Also, I have found having some pat phrases and responses in my pocket for whatever comes up to be a reassurance.

A couple other resources that have come together to help me grow in this area are:

https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/hci-articles/tag/bill+eddy
https://www.youtube.com/@communicationskills

Another thing I have done is I have found role models around me and observed their grace under fire and learned from them. Let us know how things are going for you as you are able.

[NarcKiddo]

I have never communicated a boundary to my PDs as such, I don't think.

The problem with announcing a boundary is how they will hear it and how they will react to it. Which could be, for example "how dare you tell me I am not allowed to do xyz! You are not the boss of me! I will do what I like." They may deny ever having done whatever it is you are asking them to stop doing. You will be accused of making it up, misunderstanding them, overreacting.

Also, whenever there is an announcement of a boundary, they will typically test it like a five-year-old.

"Oh, I forgot I'm not allowed to call you after 10pm. Oops. Well, it's only 10.15 and you answered the phone, so...."

"Oh, I know you said not to do xyz, but this is an emergency." (It never actually is...)

And those are the relatively benign ways of testing. Often they simply ignore the boundary and if you remind them they feign ignorance. Or say "Oh, you didn't meant that. You were just having a bad day."

Given your examples, my approach would be (I'm using 'she' mostly for the PD because I always think of my mother but obviously it applies to whoever is causing the problem):

Son's health - you never bring up the topic. If she does, maybe try grey rock first. "Oh, he's fine." If he has some problem she knows about already, then "Oh, much the same." Or "Better, thanks." Bland stuff that gives no real information. They get bored if there is no drama and she may stop asking. If instead she ramps it up and keeps hassling you, then might be the time to be more explicit about not wanting to discuss it. The problem there is that you open the door to "But I'm the graaaaandmotherrrrr! I have a RIGHT to know." Boring is usually better.

Text chat - stop texting. Tell them you are having some issues, or changed your phone provider or whatever, if they query. You are always going to sort it out but just never do.

Unsolicited advice - "Thanks, I'll bear that in mind." On repeat. If she asks later whether you took the advice, change the subject, pretend to have an urgent interruption and end the conversation. Or say "Oh, that's not an issue any more" and then change the subject.

It takes practice to be utterly boring without sparking their suspicions or getting obviously riled yourself, but I find it to be well worth it. Since you say you want the relationship to continue on a superficial level the best way to achieve that is not to fan any PD flames. I think announcing a boundary in advance is fanning the flames.

[moglow]

∆ What they said!! ∆

I've come to believe that stating boundaries is like waving a red cape in front of a charging bull then telling him to stop. You can talk and explain and justify all you want, but at the end of the day they're still YOUR boundaries, thus yours to protect and defend. You don't have to explain why. Don't JADE - justify argue defend or explain!

Certain subjects off the table? Don't respond to probing questions or comments, change the subject (repeatedly, as needed), leave the room, end the call. Flat out offensive comments? Dont acknowledge with more than a pointed look and change of subject. [I once asked mother after one of her epic rude comments, are you HIGH?? On what PLANET is that okay? What if I said such a vile thing to you - would you like it?? No it didn't go over well but neither did hers. It felt kinda good to call her on it for once.] Don't want shared/group texts? Dont participate. Text mom alone (or not at all), but leave the shared texts unanswered.

Live your boundaries, don't expect anyone to simply do as asked. I suspect you *have* asked, probably multiple times, but as "the child" that's somehow not allowed. So fine, you get to put your own foot down now.

[LemonLime]

IMO, don't SAY boundaries.   DO them.

Jerry Wise on YouTube has great videos about boundaries and self-differentiation.   I'd recommend binge-watching him.
It's made a world of difference for me.

[anonhand]

Thank you so much everyone! This was exactly what I needed to hear and so helpful coming from people that obviously really understand and have lived similar experiences.

Surprisingly, I had not seen or heard the advice "don't say the boundaries, live them" anywhere else. My response (and lack of responses) to the last incident has been different and I intend to continue, I finally snapped and felt that I could not continue in this childlike role anymore. Last week I had a very challenging time at home - I'm in my 40s, I have three young kids and I work full-time - and I just cannot allow myself to get emotionally beaten down by outsiders on top of the demands here that should come first. I finally realized that I owe it to myself and my kids to put myself before this behaviour from my parents.

Thank you all and I'm wishing you well in your own journeys too.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi anonhand,

I second the advice already shared here.

Jerry Wise has great videos that helped me as well.

In my view, being able to establish LC (low contact) depends on the type of narcissism your parents are inflicted with.

I've been watching more Dr. Ramani videos lately. She really does a great job explaining the different variations on the theme. Some narcissistic parent have huge reactions to our boundaries and others are more avoidant, and will basically move into their own 'discard' phase with us more quickly once they sense that we are not playing the role we used to play in their lives (they only see things through the lens of "what is happening "to me", what is she doing "to me").

Living our boundaries is our way of saying, yeah, I'm not playing that role anymore.

So within the category of emotionally immature parents, there are sub-types.

And in my view, when people are able to maintain LC , it is because their emotionally immature parents do not have huge, enmeshed, reactions to you every minute of every day. In my case, my NPD mother reacted constantly to my attempt at VLC (Very low contact) which led to my going NC (no contact) after
years of attempting VLC with her.

I think that Dr. Ramani's videos are helpful for people in your situation, where you are setting new limits and creating more distance between yourself and your parents. Their reactions will depend on their own traits -their level of reactivity and vulnerability / grandiosity stuff.

Narcissism as you know is all about control. In order to control the situation, some PD parents will discard their adult children. Who do they discard? They discard the adult children who have boundaries.

I've seen different reactions by different narc parents. Some emotionally immature parents will adjust to the superficial dynamic, and barely notice that you actually shifted to this dynamic with them. Other parents will fight their adult child on every single attempt at a more superficial and casual level of relating.

IMHO there is no point in having a conversation with a narcissist about the boundaries you need in order to let them (the narc) in your life.

They will go on the defensive, and position themselves as the victim. They just don't have the capacity to understand how their narcissism and emotional immaturity requires you to have these limits. Best to simply live those limits (i.e. like you said, no more conversations with them about your son's health) and then address your needs, and leave them out of the loop on any topic you do not want them included on.

It is your life, not theirs. They are not entitled to access. Emotionally immature parents feel entitled to us when actually, access to their adult children is a privilege not a right. If you do end up with parents who have huge reactions to your new limits with them, a good therapist who understands narcissism can help you with how you're feeling about it too. Or, sometimes an emotionally immature parent will discard us pretty quickly, and that can be hurtful to deal with too.

Wishing you all the best. Life is much easier once you don't have emotionally immature parents intruding on your life all of the time. It is very hard to parent your own children and manage the immature behaviours of your own parents as well. Let them sort out their own adult lives.

Trees

[Liketheducks]

I think the best advice I ever received about boundaries is that they are about me....not them.   I don't have to share them.   I can change my mind about them in the moment if I need something different to feel safe.   I owe no explanation or justification to anyone about them....they are MY boundaries.   That is so much easier said than done.   

I don't communicate them to my family.    When I have in the past.....they do try to test me as best they can.   Given our past enmeshment.....it feels very cold and transactional and strategic.   But, it gives me much more peace.

[Big Bear]

anonhand,

One boundary that I formed with my mother is that I won't talk about other people's health problems to her.  So when she was asking about my FIL's health issues, I replied, "Well, he's getting older."  (Aren't we all!)  I gave her an honest answer in a polite tone of voice.  She seemed satisfied with this response.  It really helped diffuse the situation.  Although, I'll admit that it was a difficult moment for me.  I had to keep my motive covert and stick to my plan to medium chill any attempt to get me to spill the beans!   

So next time you get an inappropriate, "So . . . how's your child's health issue coming along?"  You could say something along the lines of, "Growing up isn't always easy."  or "You know, we just take it a day at a time."  If they keep probing, bring up a great reason to end the call, "Hey I gotta go now, I really need to _____________ (fill in the blank) today."  (walk the dog, pay my bills, check on the kids)  I have kids too, so that is one of my trump cards when I'm at home!  "I'm planning to read a book to so-and-so today, gotta go!"  One thing that works great for me is to call my parents on my 15-minute break at work.  I start the call by saying that I'm on my break at work.  So, when I need to end it, "Well, my break is ending, gotta go!"  They really respect this and it keeps the call to a length I can handle.

As, for the unsolicited advice, good luck with that one.  It's more about your response.  Them: "Advice, blah, blah, blah."  You: "That's nice."  Them: "Blah, Blah"  You: "That's too bad."  "Ohhhhh, really, I'm think about it."  The key is to listen and neither agree nor disagree.  I know from experience that it  may not be easy.  I like a metaphor of water off a duck's back.  Just let it go right off!

Take Care!
Big Bear

[Happypants]

Hi Anonhand.  As others have mentioned, internalised boundaries are where you hold the power over interactions.  Another fan of Jerry Wise here, and an old video of his that I often revisit is this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNWOfXPRNEs

I'm not sure whether all the content will resonate with you, but approximately 5 minutes in he mentions asking "so what?".  That was groundbreaking for me, and if I can catch myself before I spiral into an emotional reaction, it really brings me back and grounds me as a separate entity who doesn't need them to be okay with what I'm saying or doing.  Hope that helps x

[Cat of the Canals]

Surprisingly, I had not seen or heard the advice "don't say the boundaries, live them" anywhere else.

I've noticed similar, and I think it's because most advice on boundaries assumes you are dealing with another mature adult. In those cases, I think it is often appropriate, and even considerate, to communicate boundaries directly. Many times, it seems communicating a boundary out loud to a PD is like daring them to violate it any way they can.

If I ask a non-PD to please not feed my dog table scraps, they will likely have no problem respecting that boundary. Meanwhile, we've asked my PDmil this very thing a hundred times, and she still feeds the dog. On purpose. To make a point. How dare we tell her what to do, we can't control her! Which is true.

What I CAN control is not giving her an opportunity to feed the dog in the first place. That might mean: not allowing her in my home (a consideration, at this point). Or it might mean never having food out when she visits and insisting we have meals separately. I took somewhat of a middle road last time it happened and stopped participating in the family meal time and took the dog for a walk instead. I didn't tell her it was because she fed the dog. I simply did my thing.