Can a sibling become consciously a co-dependent-enabler?

[osee1]

Dear All.

I have been healing and managing my relationship with an uNPD mother (covert type, very heavy, toxic) for the last 5 or 6 years now, basically since I discovered and learned about NPD. There is something however that baffles me at the moment and I have not read or seen any materials on this situation in particular. I  have a younger sibling, five years younger, we are both now in our late 30s,early 40s. It is clear that in the dynamic I was the golden-child and my sibling the scapegoat. We both suffered pretty bad abuse as children, both emotional and some (not extreme) but some physical too. My brother had it much worse than me. Once I discovered NPD and started my journey to heal myself and manage the relationship (which today is pretty much down to extremely limited contact plus grayrock), after I felt confident and stable in relation to all this, I felt I should perhaps talk to my sibling. I observed that my sibling was still under heavy fire and was suffering a lot, even starting to manifest physical things, and strong emotional troubles. I softly engaged and shared - "you know I think our mother has a problem, I will share something with you, you can see, and reflect and maybe this can help you also". So I shared some videos of Dr. Ramani, and some literature. Immediatly after a week or so my sibling seemed very grateful, almost relieved, thanked very much and seemed to be experiencing some moment of relief at the understanding. However, a few weeks later when I tried to approach the topic, with the intention of- well, we are in this together, we can perhaps help each other, and coordinate and so on.. my sibling avoided the topic. Seemed even unconfortable with it. Later on, in one of the rare family events I attend, the topic of 'mother troubles' appeared and my sibling throws something at me that really surprised me, saying "well, its always me taking most of the crap, maybe you should also show up around more and take some of the load yourself" - this really caught me offguard. Had this been before my sibling was made aware of the situation it would have been more understandable, but now a few months further down the line, my sibling talks with our mother daily by phone, sees  her every week, goes spend a full week in the holidays - it almost seems like shifting to codependent-enabler... does this make any sense? I thought co-dependent and enablers are always in an unconcious situation? I am a little off about this and feel even more vulnerable somehow.  any thoughts or comments that are insightful are appreciated.
much love

[moglow]

Speaking up as a lifetime scapegoat [and frankly, unwanted] "child" here - tell your sibling about us. Send a text or email with the link and suggest they might want to read here even if they choose to not post.
Your sib may simply not see the point in talking about it. Mom is who she is, he's aware she's not likely to change and everyone copes in their own way. As you're the the supposed golden child, I guarantee there's all manner of things your sibling may never discuss with you. I would imagine they see and hear about the differences between you more than enough, mom likely sees to that. All kinds of unflattering comparisons where they simply never measure up on a multitude of levels, and he may feel there's probably no safe place for him.

BUT we're taught we must do as mother demands. It's easier to go along to get along than risk the full on wrath when you don't, if that makes sense. But it wears away at a person. Resentments are formed and fester, and she may even be telling him outright that you said/did this or that [whether true or not] to belittle and demean any and everything about him. He may believe as I did that eventually he'd find that magic sweet spot where "it's okay." Where he'll be appreciated for himself.

Id bet he believes "taking the load" is what you're supposed to do as the children, because that's what he's been told over and over and over again. Guarantee if he's ever tried to talk about it, it's been poo-poohed and "she's your mother" and "she loves you" and "she won't be here forever so you should ..." He may think if you were around more she might back off - and she might not. Tell him for me - her sense of entitlement isn't yours to provide, whatever she may believe and however many times she may demand it.

People get there when they get there, is what I'm saying. I used to talk to mine waaaaaaaay too much for my mental well being, visits, holidays etc and it was never enough. Somewhere along the way she'd still dump, demean and insult me to high heaven, create rages out of air and imaginings then run around behind my back to all and sundry with a very different version of events. Eventually she'd come back around all bright and merry, never knowing that I'd been told what she said. I never said or did anything about it because I was just plain grateful the ugliness had gone away for a while. I knew better than to deliberately poke the beast, but it always came back. Eventually she full on turned on my brothers as well and ugly as that's been there's a peace in it. It wasn't ME. I wasn't the problem and hadn't caused all those issues all my life. She CHOSE those things and believed them with every breath in her body.

I'll tell you this - my older brother confronted mother recently with how she's treated me, all my life, asked that she make amends. She lost it, claimed none of that ever happened and that I was spreading lies "just like I always have." She then went to other family members who confirmed everything he said and more. Has she apologized or tried to make amends? No. Do I expect her to? No. Would anything change for me if even she tried? Also no, way too much water under that bridge. But knowing my brother fronted the demons on my behalf and didn't back away, is priceless for me.

[Cat of the Canals]

I'm unfamiliar with the idea that codependency and enabling behavior must occur subconsciously. I've witnessed plenty of conscious enabling - e.g. people who have witnessed the abuse and still say, "BUT IT'S YOUR FAAAAAMILY."

And like moglow said, just because your sibling has been offered an explanation for your mother's behavior does not mean they have accepted it. It's not uncommon for people to move in and out of "the FOG." I know I've done it myself. A common FOGgy phrase being, "They're not THAT bad."

I first broached this subject with my own sibling about five years ago. Since then, he swings back and forth like a pendulum. There are times he has exhibited "Flying Monkey" behavior where he delivers guilt trips on behalf of our mother. Or times when he says, "But she's not THAT bad." There are other times where he has been pushed to his wit's end and is telling me he's thinking about giving her ultimatums about going no contact or trying to fantasizes about strong-arming her into therapy.

One thing I did notice is that the more I try to talk about my mother's issues, the more he seems to retreat back into the FOG. We were trained to always defer to our mother and her feelings, so I understand where it's coming from and know it's something deeply ingrained in him. But it does hurt that I feel a need to withhold certain things from one of the people I feel closest to.

And one last thing... I wouldn't say my brother was the scapegoat, but my mother definitely treated me like the golden child. I think he was always a bit jealous of the praise and attention my mother heaped on me, and I sense him sometimes trying to elicit those things from her. I have no desire to be on my mother's pedestal, because I know how fickle (and phony) a position it is. I don't think he understands that. The power of the pedestal is still real to him, and thus he seeks something he always craved as a child. It might be your brother is doing something similar.

[NarcKiddo]

Maybe your sib has (unconsciously) seen an opening for the role of GC and is now trying for that. My husband has sometimes asked me if I plan to speak to my younger sib about the situation but there is no way I would do so until our mother is gone. And probably not even then unless I am approached about it.

The understanding is very hard to process and at first I certainly found myself veering very much between lightbulb moments and gaslighting myself.

Tread carefully and look after yourself.

[osee1]

Thank you for your comments all of you so far, its been really helpful. There were a few things that really struck me while reading and reflecting on your feedback and experiences. In particular, thanks Cat for sharing your experience as it seems very similar to what I was describing and places some prespective, these things you said:

And like moglow said, just because your sibling has been offered an explanation for your mother's behavior does not mean they have accepted it. It's not uncommon for people to move in and out of "the FOG." I know I've done it myself. A common FOGgy phrase being, "They're not THAT bad."

I first broached this subject with my own sibling about five years ago. Since then, he swings back and forth like a pendulum. There are times he has exhibited "Flying Monkey" behavior where he delivers guilt trips on behalf of our mother. Or times when he says, "But she's not THAT bad." (...)
One thing I did notice is that the more I try to talk about my mother's issues, the more he seems to retreat back into the FOG. (...)
(...)It might be your brother is doing something similar.

Narckiddo's comments also somehow feel relevant.
However, I must say that while reading all your messages what really struck me, I think in particular when I read moglow's post, was that I have a lot of what seems to be 'survivor guilt' in relation to my sibling. In my mid-late 20's, even though in those days I didnt know anything about NPD, I just could no longer bear the family dynamics and was literally.. sort of broken, and I disconnected, I physically moved far far away and checked out of family life. It was not a no-contact situation, but... almost. later once I started by healing process and discovered NPD and all that, I noticed I felt guilty, feeling that I had abandoned by younger sibling behind in that situation, and I know that there a lot of chaos and emtional abuse going on. I thought I processed most of that, but now its obvious I havent. I felt when I decided to share with my sib about NPD, that somehow was my redemption to help my sib also start a healing process and liberation from the situation. I guess thats why this reaction that I brought here for discussion has somehow hit me a lot, because I feel exactly as Cat said, that the more I try to approach this the more my sib seems to be moving away into deeper co-dependency. And yes, it is possible as both Cat and Narckiddo said that my sib feels that .. "well its better than before" now that my mother is putting me as the 'bad one'..
What to do... Im tired. At the moment I am again in a very limited contact situation. For a while since maybe the last 3 or 4 years I opened up a little and moved again closer to where my family lives and tried to establish some link with my sib. That came at the cost of also opening more contact with my mother. But is gotten out of hand again and I just dont want to. I also noticed that since I tried to re-establish a connection with my sib a few years ago, which started very well, my mother started to poison that and I know of several instances where she tried to turn my sib against me. It seems to be working as we barely speak these days and every time I try to reach my sib seems to step away. Maybe I shouldnt have tried to share about the NPD and all that as narckinddo says, maybe people need to get to it when they are ready. I dont know, and I start to feel that I just have to resolve this guilt on my own and let it go.

[moglow]

About that survivor guilt - my older brother has expressed similar to me in various ways the past year or so. It was well known within our family that I was the primary target and there was no way out. Confronting her [then] was just.not.done. He's told me more than once he felt helpless and all he wanted to do was get away from all of it as much as possible. He had that option and thank goodness for it! He would later push me that "you don't have to put up with her shit! Why do you listen to it??" She had me convinced *I* was the problem, wasn't wanted, was useless etc [because she said so, many times] so my job was to prove her wrong. Thing was, I was trained to be that person, her punching bag. I honestly thought that it was worth whatever it took to get to her "good" times, that at some point she'd wake up and SEE me. So I kept trying.


It's probably some 25 years ago now that I hit a really low spot with her and reached out to a therapist, first learned about BPD and personality disorders in general. I knew all along that something was very wrong with her, just had no clue and kept blaming myself - HUGE lightbulb moment. I later tried to share with my brothers and they pretty much brushed it [and her] off as unnecessary. It felt disloyal and disrespectful talking about her behind her back, but there was no conceivable way to confront her thinking to resolve anything.

She spent a lot of time pitting us against each other, divide and conquer bs. There's a lot of distrust we're learning to move past, and in comparing notes we're seeing we've all been lied to, to keep someone on "her side." Only in the past several years - after she's turned on all of us in some form or another - that we've really talked about what we grew up in and the fact that she never changed. It's not just an old sick woman who's lashing out as people tried to tell us, this is the same person she's always been. WE don't have to live by her choices.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello osee1,

Great insights given already. To reply to your most recent post, I'll share that it does appear rare for more than one person in a family to come Out of the FOG. If we could bring along a few others from the original FOO system, our own recovery would be a lot easier. I have siblings, and all of my Out of the FOG work has been without their help or support. Yes, this is painful.

From what I have read and learned about parental narc abuse, typically there is at most, one person in the family who will start to 'see' it in adulthood.

Our siblings can easily end up staying in their FOG long after we have started to accept that our parent has a PD.

One theory that tries to explain why so few people in a FOO system ever get Out of the FOG (for example, the parent has NPD, and only 1 of her children realizes this) is Internal Family Systems theory. Because this theory looks at the roles we take on, and the different parts that are operating.

Of course the theories around scapegoat / enabler / lost child / golden child help us as well. These theories resonate with a lot of us here because we can see that in our FOO, different children played a different role for the PD parent. You have already learned about this, so you know that each child has had a different experience of the PD.

You may have already come across information about how the PD parent will actually create this situation by treating each child differently (but always in a dysfunctional, unhealthy manner considering what that child actually needed). By treating each of her children differently, your parent has created a situation where each of her adult children has had a different experience with her abusive behaviours.

This can be seen as a form of 'divide and conquer'. There is some good information out there about how PD parents poison the friendships between her now adult children.

In childhood, rather than having a more 'normal' sibling relationship, the relationships with your siblings were probably heavily influenced by your mother's disordered behaviours.

As adults, it can be extremely challenging for 2 siblings in a family to create a new, healthy relationship together as adults, when they grew up with a PD parent. I have unfortunately, experienced this myself. The healthy relating that other people had with their siblings is completely foreign to me because of my parent's mental illness and PD. I was constantly sabotaged when I tried to just have normal sibling dynamics.

When our siblings are asked to come Out of the FOG, they face a dilemma that they might find impossible to address. I do not know many people who can successfully have a healthy relationship with the sibling who is Out of the FOG, while simultaneously staying in close contact to the PD parent that expects constant enabling. Maybe it exists, but it would be rare. Having a healthy relationship with you, requires that sibling to consider what is going on with their PD parent. There could be many reasons why they may not be able to do this (i.e. financial dependency, trauma bonds, etc..).

It is another painful layer in the recovery from PD abuse. We cannot rescue our own siblings from the system we have escaped. We may desperately yearn for a healthy friendship with our siblings, but in my case the PD parent keeps that well out of reach.

There is hope. You can keep working on your recovery, and hope that your sibling gets to a point where they want to join you in living outside of the PD drama. But from all I've learned about FOG, we can't choose it for others. They have to choose to get out of it. I do think there is a special pain and grief we feel when we realize our sibling is suffering and we can't rescue them.

I am glad you are here on the forum because many people here understand the pain of wanting a sibling to come Out of the FOG.

Trees

[treesgrowslowly]

Moglow - you and and I both referred to divide and conquer in our posts we made just now! Great minds think alike.   

osee1, sorry you are going through this but glad you are here to share about it.

Trees

[osee1]

Greetings, and thank you,

About that survivor guilt - my older brother has expressed similar to me in various ways the past year or so. It was well known within our family that I was the primary target and there was no way out. 

Yes, I get that. I have done the same a couple of years ago, I have directly said to my sibling that I felt guilty and was sorry for having walked out, but later, and today still, reflecting about this it feels wrong somehow. Does it make sense? I mean, even the fact that I felt the need to apologize is somehow part of the traumatic relationship dynamic.

She spent a lot of time pitting us against each other, divide and conquer bs.

I never really noticed that until the last four years or so since I started to re-establish a connection with my sibling. But now yes, for sure that is happening. A few months ago on a phone conversation my mother tells me that my sibling is very angry at me and said that I dont care about the family, and I dont care about anyone and im so selfish because I didnt go to visit during the easter time. I was very surprised and immediatly called up my sibling and directly asked about it... my sibling flat out denied ever saying that or making that type of comment, but that our mother had made that comment there at their house. So this sick games really are happening, and i feel i dont know the half of it.

I wanted to make a comment about this post from 'Trees'.

I am glad you are here on the forum because many people here understand the pain of wanting a sibling to come Out of the FOG.
Trees

Thank you! Something happened as I read the last line of  your post. As I read that last line I cried for like 20 min. Later I realized that I felt like for the first time truly that all that has happened in my life, just was acknowledged somehow, maybe mostly to myself. So I wanted to say truly, Thank you!
I realized that even though I tried to talk about this in the past with some people it was never really acknowledged. I guess even myself was still holding on to some doubt, you know the usual - maybe your complicated,maybe your too sensitive and so on. Somehow, even though its a very simple sentence, that line triggered something inside me connected to my self-worth. Something 'cracked' (in a good sense), im still trying to work it out actually.

As for the situation with my sibling that started this thread... I dont know... I think I will have to just let things go their own way. I came out of a very low contact situation with my entire family into a more contact a few years ago because I wanted to re-establish contact with my sib and my nephews who were start to become young boys and I wanted to be part of it. The thing is that its all a package deal as my mother is deeply enmenshed into my sib's life and they live in the same town and not far from each other. But the situation has been gradually worsening, boundaries crossed, until we are reaching a point where again the put downs, attacks, demeaning comments, manipulation .. its all starting to re-assert itself.  I came here and started this thread at a point where I felt I needed to make a decision again following a series of attacks via phone and text message where I found myself experiencing again a trauma-like response... knot in the stomach, freeze response, mental fog... I can identify these now and take a breath, make space and process it - but im clearly still in the healing process. I dont want this. But I  know if I go back to VLC, this time there is the extra cost related to my sibling and my nephews. But to be honest I dont see another way. I already shared my feelings about all this with my sibling,.. well as I said above.. im sort of gaining the courage to decide that its time to move on and detach.

Thank you all for your kindness.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello osee1,

I joined this forum years ago, and had my own breakthroughs with finally feeling seen and understood by a community of people who got it. I am very glad you feel welcome here.

This topic of getting Out of the FOG is (finally) getting better attention in society. There are some people on social media that I believe provide consistently helpful messages to survivors who are trying to recover and learn about their family system. They are Patrick Teahan, Josh Connolly and Nate Postlethwait.

Taken together, their messages on social media / youtube shorts are things I wish I had heard from more people when I was first coming Out of the FOG, years ago. They really get it. I have learned so much from each of them. If you are looking for weekly / daily reminders of your hard work to come Out of the FOG, perhaps you will find their posts helpful as well.

Glad you are here,

Trees