Is enough, enough?

[Rose01]

Hello everyone,
I am not sure if my other half is a narcissist or not or just deeply troubled and insecure?  We met 4 years ago, and he has lied and cheated to me a few times, each time I was the last to find out.  I belong to a local club where he is also a member and people were talking about it before I knew.  We split up this time last year (for 3 months)  as I found out he lied to me again.  He begged me all through this time to get back with him and in that time he slept with another woman (he said because he hit rock bottom and f'd up, he said he head was a mess because he missed me so much).  I was lost without him and so gave him a final chance.  I have to be honest, he has been amazing since we got back together in January and I have been so happy - his behaviour appeared genuine and for the first time trusted him, no more phones turned off, complete transparency of his whereabouts, he has been incredibly supportive and more commitment with my children, he wanted to marry me and I wanted to marry him.  The issue I have is I found out at the weekend, he slept with a (not very close) friend of mine that belongs to that same club just a week after we split and once again, they all knew before me.  The man has humiliated me so many times before but to do it in my own club as deeply hurt me - this almost seems worse than the other times because I didn't see this one coming.

He told me he wanted to tell me but he didn't think I would get back with him, he knows this was selfish and once again is begging for my forgiveness, he says he was in a really difficult situation.  The girl has apologised and he is distraught.

I am so confused as I love him so much and the last 10months have been incredible, he says he has changed and I believe he has.  I just feel so utterly humiliated and worthless once again.  I don't know how to move on from here or which way to go.....

[1footouttadefog]

I would have a hard time dealing with a multiple time cheater.

It's up to you what you want.  You were happy with where the relationship was before finding out about this latest info
  If it happened before you took him back, it's a matter of who and not tHt he had cheated.  You k ow he was cheating before taking him back.

I guess what I am saying is maybe sorting the feelings out might help you decide

Him. Heating was not a deal breaker because you say you are happy with things now.  You maybe need to decide if cheating with this particular person is a deal breaker for you.   Figure out what this boundary means to you and what it says about the two of you. 

In the mean time maybe keep things where they are instead of moving forward with marriage while you work through this might be a good idea. 

Things will be alot more complicated if he cheats and you want to break up after legally marrying.

[Simon]

Doesn't sound like a great position to be in.
I feel for you.

Normally I try not to be too blunt with my comments, but with some people's situations, there's really no alternative.
Just how many times can he cheat on you?
How many times is too many times?

You say he cheated on you a few times in the 4 years, so let's say 3 times.
Then you say he cheated on you while you were broken up, and then say that he slept with a friend of yours a week after you broke up.
Is that the same person/incident?
If it is, then 4 times cheating, and if not, 5 times cheating.
And these are only the times you know about.
And you mention that the friend he slept with was "not a very close" friend, almost as if that makes it better, almost as if you are defending him, or trying to minimize it (I'm not judging. It's understandable).

So, what's your limit?
20 times over the next 30 years?
30 or 40 times?

And you mention the times he's humiliated you, and that this time even more so.
And you say everyone seems to know before you.
He clearly has no respect for you.

The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour!

As for the last 10 months being perfect, well, you'll find a lot of people's stories on here that show the exact same amazing transformation of character from their other halves, usually after infidelity or a break up because of their bad behaviour, and everything is rosy again, just like they promise....., and then the mask falls off again, and around you go again.

It's clear that he's got you hooked on him, as he seems to be able to do anything he wants, and knows that he can persuade you to get back with him each time (having his cake and eating it), but I would seriously think about what you want from a relationship, and ask yourself if he really can deliver on that.

If you do decide to stay with him, you must know that all the warning signs are there, and that you are going into this with your eyes wide open.
It's going to be very difficult to blame him for the situation you find yourself in if he cheats on you again.
And if you do get married, then getting out of that without damage is a whole new ball game.
Even more so if you have kids.

Again, I know it sounds blunt, but after all he's already done to you, I think you need to hear the harsh truth, and sugar-coating is the last thing you need right now.

Maybe work out on a piece of paper how many times he's cheated on you in the last 4 years.
Maybe ask him how many times he would accept you cheating on him? (I'm not suggesting you do that, but you know the point I'm making, and I think we all know the answer he would give).

Here's a few of his excuses that I thought were worth highlighting:
he said because he hit rock bottom and f'd up (Sounds like it's all about him)
he said his head was a mess because he missed me so much (almost like it's your fault!)
He told me he wanted to tell me but he didn't think I would get back with him. (Smart guy)
He says he was in a really difficult situation. (Aww, bless)
He says he has changed. (Well that's alright then! What are you waiting for? I'm sure he's never told you that before!)

Personally, infidelity is a betrayal that would always destroy any relationship I was in.
I would never get past it.
Not a chance.
Without trust, I don't see how there can be much of a relationship.

I wish you luck.
Whichever way you choose, this is a pivotal moment, and you need to be aware of what your decision will mean for you and your children.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

I agree with the previous post, I have to share some honest thoughts with you.....

You mentioned you are a mother - would you want your daughter to marry a man like him?  Would you want your son to treat a woman like he's treating you?

Please think this through, this is your life and your decision how you want to live it. 

If you stay with him, I hope you find some long term peace and happiness.  Best of luck

[Gettintired76]

I just have to say, that I agree with all of you on everything that has been said, and Rose this a man goin through everything you've said on the flip side. I agree Simon 100% however it was my experience that she did the damage but still held all the ropes that kept my kids over my head. So even though yes I knew what she was and that she would continue to do it, for the safety of my kids I felt I couldn't leave. Just throwing that side out there.

[notrightinthehead]

Hi Rose, in addition to the responses given above, I found that sentence in  your post worrying:

.....  I was lost without him .....

That does not seem a good base for a relationship. It sounds dependent. You are an adult, a mother, I am sure you had a life before him and you would have a life after him.  Maybe you could look into your own behaviour and work on why you feel that you need him so much.

[Rose01]

Doesn't sound like a great position to be in.
I feel for you.

Normally I try not to be too blunt with my comments, but with some people's situations, there's really no alternative.
Just how many times can he cheat on you?
How many times is too many times?

You say he cheated on you a few times in the 4 years, so let's say 3 times.
Then you say he cheated on you while you were broken up, and then say that he slept with a friend of yours a week after you broke up.
Is that the same person/incident?
If it is, then 4 times cheating, and if not, 5 times cheating.
And these are only the times you know about.
And you mention that the friend he slept with was "not a very close" friend, almost as if that makes it better, almost as if you are defending him, or trying to minimize it (I'm not judging. It's understandable).

So, what's your limit?
20 times over the next 30 years?
30 or 40 times?

And you mention the times he's humiliated you, and that this time even more so.
And you say everyone seems to know before you.
He clearly has no respect for you.

The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour!

As for the last 10 months being perfect, well, you'll find a lot of people's stories on here that show the exact same amazing transformation of character from their other halves, usually after infidelity or a break up because of their bad behaviour, and everything is rosy again, just like they promise....., and then the mask falls off again, and around you go again.

It's clear that he's got you hooked on him, as he seems to be able to do anything he wants, and knows that he can persuade you to get back with him each time (having his cake and eating it), but I would seriously think about what you want from a relationship, and ask yourself if he really can deliver on that.

If you do decide to stay with him, you must know that all the warning signs are there, and that you are going into this with your eyes wide open.
It's going to be very difficult to blame him for the situation you find yourself in if he cheats on you again.
And if you do get married, then getting out of that without damage is a whole new ball game.
Even more so if you have kids.

Again, I know it sounds blunt, but after all he's already done to you, I think you need to hear the harsh truth, and sugar-coating is the last thing you need right now.

Maybe work out on a piece of paper how many times he's cheated on you in the last 4 years.
Maybe ask him how many times he would accept you cheating on him? (I'm not suggesting you do that, but you know the point I'm making, and I think we all know the answer he would give).

Here's a few of his excuses that I thought were worth highlighting:
he said because he hit rock bottom and f'd up (Sounds like it's all about him)
he said his head was a mess because he missed me so much (almost like it's your fault!)
He told me he wanted to tell me but he didn't think I would get back with him. (Smart guy)
He says he was in a really difficult situation. (Aww, bless)
He says he has changed. (Well that's alright then! What are you waiting for? I'm sure he's never told you that before!)

Personally, infidelity is a betrayal that would always destroy any relationship I was in.
I would never get past it.
Not a chance.
Without trust, I don't see how there can be much of a relationship.

I wish you luck.
Whichever way you choose, this is a pivotal moment, and you need to be aware of what your decision will mean for you and your children.

Simon, thank you for taking the time to reply to me at such length and also to everyone else, I really do appreciate it and take your comments on board.

Although nobody wants to hear it I do agree with what you say - it makes sense.  I guess I wonder though is it not possible for someone to change?  Considering the past 10 months with absolutely no issues and just happiness, is there no chance he is genuine when he says has changed and was a "different person back then" - he has had counselling for a few weeks.

I also agree with you saying he had no respect for, he absolutely didn't, but the last 10 months he has spent trying to make it up to me.  I know it seems like I am making excuses here for him but I made the decision to forgive him in January and this happened before - should this incident on it's own be a deal breaker?  That is the question I need to answer; and I have thought long and hard about this.  It kind of feels like it is like the final straw in lots of ways as it was with my friend and I cannot get that image out of my head but on the other hand I don't want to lose something that could now be amazing, it feels a bit like the best is to come (if going by the last 10 months) and it is a massive risk knowing that only good will be in our future, if indeed his changes our genuine.  I think this incident also takes me back to the feelings of hurt I have had over the last 4 years, and this is especially bad as I didn't see this one coming due to his changed ways.

The risk I take is our his efforts and words genuine? Or is this one toxic web of narcissistic abuse? Can someone keep up an act like this for a year?

One notable thing to add is that since I have asked him for space, he keeps texting me (he says he is worried if he leaves me too long I will change my mind), and he has put something on social media telling everyone his new phone as arrived and he is not in the right state of mind!

I also definitely have had co-dependency issues with my ex.  He had NPD but never cheated.  My mum was also narcissistic and I grew up with a lot of emotional abuse, I have had 3 years of counselling and now can see her for who she is. 

[Simon]

Hi Rose.
Glad you didn't take offence at what I was saying.
I know it's not easy to hear.

You asked if it was possible he's changed.
In fact, better if I quote what you said:
"I guess I wonder though is it not possible for someone to change?  Considering the past 10 months with absolutely no issues and just happiness, is there no chance he is genuine when he says has changed and was a "different person back then" - he has had counselling for a few weeks."

The answer lies in whether he has a Personality Disorder or not.
If he just has some issues (and I use the term "just" very loosely), then maybe he could change. Maybe he has changed.
Maybe he's mostly neurotypical, and is working on his issues, and sees your value.
Yes, it's possible.

However, if he does have a Personality Disorder, then I would have to say no.
At least, not in the short-term, and even long-term, there would be no guarantee that that the treatment would be a success, and at best, the PD comes out of treatment with a skillset that enables them to better regulate their emotions, and their interaction with the World, but it's not a cure.

As for him having had a few weeks of counselling, if he has a PD, that means nothing.
For instance, if he has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), you're looking at between 8-15 years of treatment, which the person with BPD has to commit to 100% (which they have trouble doing, and often give up when the pain of opening up old wounds is too much for them).
A year or two of DBT doesn't cut it, as that's just where they learn to manage aspects of their disorder.
It's the following treatment, deep, psychotherapy that goes back to the initial core wounds, that's the most important, and it takes a long, long time because of how difficult and painful it is for a BPD to face their fears.
As I've said, generally, their defence mechanisms kick in, and they blame everyone else and quit therapy.
As for NPD, I would imagine that it's even more difficult to get them into therapy, let alone stick it out.

Some Borderlines stop dating because they know that they will rupture any relationship anyway (I think the last figure I saw was 10%), but at least some do try therapy.
I don't remember reading about too many NPD's trying therapy.
I've read many, many accounts of NPDs saying that they will get therapy, usually because they are trying to get their partner back after their latest transgression. Sound familiar?

So, if you really can forgive him for the lack of respect, the multiple counts of lying and cheating, etc, I guess you need to decide whether you think he has a Personality Disorder or not.
You can check the Internet for the traits of both BPD and NPD, be honest and objective about how many of these traits he has, and if he has more than 5 of the nine traits, then chances are, they have that disorder.
For instance, my ex had 9 out of 9 BPD traits, and 8 out of 9 NPD traits, so co-morbid with both.
(Just to clarify, so that no-one needs to point it out, it's true that we are not qualified to officially diagnose a Personality Disorder. But, if we've lived with someone for an extended period of time, and we are honest and objective with examining the evidence, then we can decide with accuracy whether they have a disorder or not).

Anyway, I've a feeling that you are so hooked on this guy that you are going to accept him back whatever.
In fact, you've probably already made your mind up on this, and no amount of people on here telling you their stories about them getting married, and living in hell for 10-20 years, and then getting out and coming on here saying they wished they could go back and do things differently, is going to change your mind.

There's a lot said on Personality Disorders about people with Personality Disorders not being able to accept accountability, and always looking to blame someone else.
For the rest of us, those of us who are neurotypical, we need to hold ourselves to the same ethic.
They need to be responsible for their decisions, and so do we.
If you are happy with the decision to take him back, as long as you hold yourself accountable for that decision, then you are owning it, and everything that it brings.

There is no UNDO button, and life is brief.
Does he deserve to be with you?
He's cheated on you several times, and you still want him back. What does that say about how you view your self-worth?
Do you not deserve better than that?

And PlantFlowersNotWeeds made an excellent point.
Would you be happy to see your Sons or Daughters treating their partners this way when they grow up?
With him as a role model, they may well see that as normal behaviour.

I really do wish you luck.
We don't get to choose Narcissistic family, but we do get to choose Narcissistic partners.

[1footouttadefog]

I would hold off on marrying until you know for sure.

Could be the only reason he wants to marry is so you are entangled enough you would be unlikely to take off the next time he cheats.

[escapingman]

 

[losingmyself]

Rose, I wish I had had the strength to tell someone about how my H was treating me and my kids before I married him. I would have thought longer about it before I did it, and hopefully wouldn't have married him. Life doesn't get easier. You can learn how to manage it, you can have a life, you won't be happy, but you can do it.
The great people here are the ones who either didn't tell anyone or ignored the warnings early on in the relationship. We can manage, or get out, but we all lost valuable time, possibly family, friends, children because of this decision, and we're trying to yell from the rooftops the things that we learned, painfully, so maybe we can stop someone from making the same decisions we did.
Please, give it time. If he can go two, three years, then that's great. Ten months is not enough, based on his history.
LOVE SHOULDN'T HURT ever.
You deserve better. Work on your self esteem, and see if the person you are is better than this.
Read books, listen to podcasts, learn as much as you can.
Good luck to you

[Lovewasmyalibi]

Oh..the reflags that weren't recognized. I was colorblind when young. Now 41 years in and oh how I wish I had waited to marry. Wait, watch and make sure your vision is clear before saying yes to any long term plans.

Love

[Boat Babe]

Hiya. I agree with everybody's contributions above. I just want to look at your cognitive dissonance based on two sets of feelings you have.

The first feeling is the love you feel for this man. We get it and everyone here who has been in a romantic relationship with a PD knows how that feels. When it's good, it's very good and fills all those gaping holes in our "emotional body" as it were. Been there, done that. 

The second feeling is much quieter but persistent and focused. It's the feeling that drives you to the internet to ask randoms about your relationship. I'm talking about your gut feeling about the whole thing. Your gut is a little brain, unhindered by personal narrative, that tells you how it is. We ignore it at our peril. Our gut KNOWS.

What I have found, through years of dealing with the emotional fall out from my romantic choices, is that I have a faulty "picker" when it comes to men (not always luckily), I am a people pleaser and a fixer in the relationship. I have rubbish boundaries in relationships and find myself compromising my values in order to "keep" the person in my life, I neglect other aspects of my life for "the beloved" and generally have wasted a lot of time on people who, at best, didn't respond in kind or, at worse, used and abused me.

Keep talking to us, won't you, it really helps.

[Rose01]

I'm not sure if it is ok to pick up a really old post that I started 18 months ago but I am back with similar issues - I was warned and I blame myself. On the whole, things have been really good but last week my friend told me my partner text her (he hardly knows her), and he didn't tell me. She did. It was nothing flirty just asking for run routes which was odd as I dont know why he didn't say?   I also saw some flirty messages to a work colleague. There were a lot, nothing that was over the top but the messaging was constant and you can tell he was hoping for some kind of attention he also went so far as to tell her he was going underwear shopping! He has a history of cheating so I'm scared. I don't know what to do

[Rose01]

Hi
Yes it is still the same partner.  I don't know if he is PD or not as he has never been diagnosed.  My counsellor says he is more codependent. 
Things have been easy for the last few months and even couple of years.  We have fun, we joke and I we genuinely get on very well together.  We talk of getting married one day even.

There is something in my gut though that doesn't feel right and I am not sure if it is a lack of trust in men overall or just him.  He sometimes get insecure about sex and makes me feel that is my fault.  I do have a good sense of humour and I feel like sometimes I take this too far and make jokes at his expense.  They do not mean to be cruel in any way and he must know I love him but yet he tries to make me feel responsible for his insecurities.  He will sometimes remind me a few weeks after I make a joke that it made him feel bad, it takes me by surprise.   I have just called up a counsellor as I feel like I need some guidance.

[Leonor]

Hello Rose,

Welcome, always, here.

Dear Rose, let's put him aside for a minute. Just over there in the corner with a Wordle or something.

Rose, what about you? What are you worth? What do you deserve? What do you have to give, what do you have to receive, what do you have to love and how would you love to be loved?

This whole thread is blah blah him. Blah blah he cheats. Blah blah he's sorry. Blah blah he's gaslighting me. Blah blah he's texting other women blah blah blahbbedy blah.

So what. He's just some dude. And there are millions of dudes just like this one. We've met him. We've gotten texts from him. We've talked to him in a bar. We've dated him. We've married him. We all got high as kites on that crazy endorphin rush of him, and went through excruciating withdrawals from him  afterwards. And you know what? He was just some dude!

There's a fabulous clip from the old tv show Designing Women where Dixie tells off Ray Don. Watch that clip! It's him. Ray Don!

Rose, you deserve a man who loves and respects and honors and cherishes you and sweeps you off your feet and gives you butterflies and lights your fire! Who would never treat women like playthings or run hot and cold or just disappear or cause you heartbreak.

It's not this dude. This dude is just a Ray Don.