Our relationship is a chess game

[InvisibleDaughter]

I'm working on boundaries with my NPD Mom. When she doesn't respect my boundaries I pull away.

This morning at 8am, I texted her to see if she wanted to talk. It was a simple conversation about work and how my new position is going.

15 minutes going back and forth texting, her asking if I want to visit her or she can visit me (we live close by). I told her I'm in my jammies and my elderly dog just barks too much so a phone call is good. She lets me know she's ok with the dog barking.

She doesn't care about my feelings or boundaries. I'm all set, I don't even want to call anymore. I told her we'll talk another day, no worries.

I get a few more texts, and 3 voicemails because then she starts calling and I'm done with the games so I'm not answering. I texted her that she's not respecting my boundaries.

The last text was her telling me how now I'm blaming her and that's all I do. She's tired of me treating her like sh*t and she's done because she's sick of it.

I refused to answer her calls after she didn't respect my boundaries. I did nothing more than that, yet I get a 5yr olds tantrum.

Every interaction feels like a chess game. It makes me want distance.

Any advice?

[Call Me Cordelia]

Oy that sounds exhausting. All this from a simple pleasant text exchange. Yikes. Your mother sounds a bit... a lot. So no excuses for the repeated voicemails. I mean if you have something to say once is enough, golly.

It may help you though to look more closely at the idea of JADE. You didn't want her to visit, but you softened it with being in pajamas and blaming the dog. So she called your bluff. It's fine that you then set the boundary that you'll talk another day, but I do think a simple "Not today, thanks," full stop may serve you better. It's more honest, AND harder to try to manipulate.

[moglow]

Cordelia makes a good point - we don't have to be blunt axes but sometimes we do just need a firm "I'm really not up for a visit, just wanted to talk for a bit." Often hints don't work and we have to just say it. Tippy toeing around possibility of an outburst or meltdown seems to have a tendency to bring on just that. When I tried to soft-shoe what I wanted mother always seemed to misunderstand and it was thrown back in my face, much like you describe with yours 

With my mother, when she wants a mad she's perfectly capable of finding or inventing one. When faced with request for a call or visit, her defenses would go up quick fast and in a hurry then she invented drama. So I stopped asking. I'd go ahead and call, let the chips fall where they may. It didn't always go well, but neither did the times when I cleared the decks first. It was always a crapshoot who I'd get and I decided to be ME regardless. 

Remember that boundaries are YOURS - yours to decide, yours to protect. They're that imaginary line between you and others, where you're not overlapping into each other. You decide how to enforce them, then you do that, every time. You don't want a visit? Say so. You'd prefer a phone call? Make it. If she doesn't want the call she has the option of not answering or ending it quickly, same with you if said call goes south. We protect our own boundaries - we can't step back and imagine that an already established contrary person will adjust accordingly.  

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello InvisibleDaughter,

I agree with Cordelia and Moglow's advice.

As one daughter of a narc mother to another, I can relate. I can sympathize.

I would ask you to think about why you see it as 'simple' for her to engage with you. The goal we have when we talk to our mother, is that we want to feel seen. But given your screen name, you already know that your mother makes you feel invisible.

It is 'simple' for one person to share about their new job, and the other person to provide the right reaction to this topic, when neither person has a PD.

But it isn't simple when one of those people has a PD. And it is even less simple when one of those people is the daughter of the other person. Now it is anything but simple, because the daughter is telling her parent "I want you to see me and understand me" and the PD parent is not able to do that.

I would suspect that these interactions end up confusing her. You texted her. She's thinking oh good, I get to talk. The problem is, you didn't want her to talk, you wanted her to listen. I do not know of a PD parent who thinks to themselves "oh good, Trees is texting me, I get to listen to her share about her week". Nope. Has never happened. They think "I get to talk!" Like a child.

You can't win at chess if the other person doesn't even know how the game works. I really doubt that your mom understands the rules of parent child interaction in the same way that you understand them. I doubt she understands why you decided to text her, and I doubt that PD parents realize how often their children just want to feel seen and heard. Life is very "un-simple" with a parent who acts like this. That is why we feel the need for distance after these miserable phone calls / interactions.

There is nothing wrong with your desire for a simple exchange where the other person listens to you share about your new job. It is very sad that we can't get that from our parents.

Trees

[Cat of the Canals]

They think "I get to talk!" Like a child.

This is the most accurate description I've ever read in relation to my PDmil. 100% how her brain works.

[Leonor]

Hello Invisible,

I really appreciate you trying to initiate contact, share positivity, and maintain boundaries with your mom. You are "doing" all the right things.

But Trees is spot on: the  hope is that you connect with your mother on a deeper level of intimacy and emotional connection. And your mother cannot do that.

So, dear Invisible, you are the one playing chess: "If I say this and she does that, I'll do this," or "If she wants this and I want that, I'll say this," is really: "If I say this and then do that, maybe then she will say this and do that."

You know that your mom can't do any of the things you would like her to do. Things that come naturally to healthy people, things that healthy mothers give and receive with joy and gratitude from the depths of their soul, not have to be corralled by boundaries or manipulated by excuses into doing.

But your mom cannot do those things. It doesn't matter if you say you have a boundary or not. It doesn't matter if you text or call or visit or not. It doesn't matter if you show her YouTube videos or buy her books or go to therapy or take her on a spiritual retreat to the Himalayas or not.

Boundaries aren't there to teach or train or control other people. Well, I suppose they can be, but they won't work. They won't provide you with any relief. You'll just wind up feeling frustrated and exhausted. And invisible.

My DH once described dealing with his parents as trying to push a glacier. You might be able to get it to melt a tiny bit, or shove it a centimeter, but at what cost? Frostbite and muscle fatigue. Meanwhile the glacier hasn't even noticed you shoving and budging and pushing down there, 'cause it's a glacier.


(Which reminds me of Bowen Yang's brilliant turn as the iceberg that sunk the Titanic on Saturday Night Live. You can Google it. He spot on nails histrionic / narcissist personality, sometimes it gets so heavy with HPD/NP parents we could all use a laugh)

But in the end, you did do the right things. You reached out with positivity. You shared information. You refused what you did not want, and you stuck to your guns when she pushed back. You stated your truth, and that was that. It's too bad that she's not able to connect with you in the way that you want and deserve and would be normal, but that's why we're here to support you when it hurts.

We see you, Daughter!

[InvisibleDaughter]

I hope that my original post didn't imply that I was lying about stating I was in my jammies and our elderly dog barks too much. Maybe she saw it as excuses, but that was the truth.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi InvisibleDaughter,

No, I didn't read that as you were lying. I believe you that you were in your jammies and wanted a texting chat with your mom. Totally acceptable and normal behaviour on your part. Lots of us want a little texting convo when we are in our morning jammies!

I agree with Leonor's suggestion to consider how much we have to play chess with our parents, and consider why. Taking a step back to look at the situation as a chess game is a great way to examine what goes on between you and your mother. Your chess game analogy is a good one.

The emotionally immature parent will always stay focused on what they want. And as Lindsay Gibson talks about in many of her interviews, the emotionally immature person with narcissism will only feel their feelings.

When your mom felt like visiting you and you said no, you were in your jammies, all she could feel was rejection. You didn't want to see her, you hurt her. She felt hurt. She wanted to talk to you, and you were "making excuses" for why she couldn't get what she wanted. She felt rejected. Notice that it is all about her and how she feels after being told no.

This is what I am learning as I listen to Lindsay Gibson interviews on youtube and learn about her work with adult children of immature parents. The parent feels rejected and hurt, and recruits their adult child to make them feel better. This is what creates the "chess game" experience for us as adult daughters of narcissistic mothers.

You did the right things. My advice is to consider Cordelia's advice and tell your mom "I'd like to text for a few minutes today. Is now a good time?" And then if your mom asks to visit, you would repeat "Not today. Today I just want to text for a few minutes".

Now saying that - this strategy never worked with my mother. If I said what I wanted, it activated her inner 2 year old who had now been told 'no'. "No you can't have a cookie" would inspire my mother to fight for the next 3 days for a cookie she didn't even know existed until someone told her she couldn't have it. 

Trees

[moglow]

Now saying that - this strategy never worked with my mother. If I said what I wanted, it activated her inner 2 year old who had now been told 'no'. "No you can't have a cookie" would inspire my mother to fight for the next 3 days for a cookie she didn't even know existed until someone told her she couldn't have it.  (https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/Smileys/default/stars.gif)

And nothing you could do or say appeased that child until she decided to get over it. Then it came back later to bite?. -Same

Chess game, indeed.

[Leonor]

My 10 yo is a very good chess player. He can keep track of moves and anticipate maneuvers and analyze the situation.

I am a horrible chess player. I get confused. I forget what piece can do what. I get mixed up. And then I kind of just want to play go fish.

So it's not even "not fun" to play chess with me - it's useless! The game goes nowhere.


It might be like that with your mom. You're trying to anticipate and move and maneuver to create this experience with her, and she just doesn't get it.

So your mom probably didn't even think about whether or not you were telling the truth - she just heard "No" and then "blah blah blah."

We're raised to think that we don't go into a conversation with some kind of goal or endgame in mind - that's what we attribute to our disordered parents. But - and I got this from Lindsay Gibson too - it can actually help when we engage with our disordered parents, because it keeps us from slipping into those old, exhausting, pointless chess maneuvers.

But we have to get really clear on what we want first. More than, "It's a nice day, I'd like to chat with Mom," or, "I have some news I want to share with Mom," we gotta get down to the nitty gritty and be totally honest with ourselves with what we want from her in return:

"I want to text Mom this news so that she doesn't get mad at me later for hearing it from someone else."

"I want to text Mom this news so that she will tell me she is proud of me."

"I want to text Mom this news so we can have a pleasant conversation about my career."

And then we have to be honest on how realistic it is that we will get what we want. Maybe a more realistic goal is just that you want your Mom to know this information, or you want to make a quick effort to reach out, or just hear her voice. Ok, that's realistic. You can inform her, reach out, hear her voice. Goal achieved! No need for further maneuvers.

And if she's in a nice mood, then even better. But that's no longer the goal. That might bring you some peace.

[sunshine702]

The boundaries and hinting only serves as challenge fuel for my Marc mom.   In her brain - hey I am in my Jammies and I need to not have my old dog bark too much to her is you get no boundaries .  I am going to do whatever I want when I want despite the social cues normal people get.  What she wants is important what you want is not.

It sucks.  I have tried talking, yelling, hinting, explaining, reverse psychology.  None of it matters.  They run roughshot over me so mostly I avoid.   Sad but true

[treesgrowslowly]

And nothing you could do or say appeased that child until she decided to get over it. Then it came back later to bite?. -Same

Chess game, indeed.

So sad we've both experienced this Moglow. I think she just got distracted at some point and went from 'cookie' to the next thing she wanted. It was a frustrating way to live. For both of us.

[moglow]

I hope that my original post didn't imply that I was lying about stating I was in my jammies and our elderly dog barks too much. Maybe she saw it as excuses, but that was the truth.

ID, It would never occur to me to question something like that. We're taught to question and pick apart and explain ourselves over our most simple of statements, because they're looking for something that isn't always there. And ya know what? If you were making excuses, that just tells me it's not safe for you to tell her the simple truth that you're not up for a visit. She wants to be mad, okay. She can be mad without you.