I know who I'm dealing with, and yet....I live in hope

Liketheducks · September 23, 2023, 12:56:55 PM

Long story....
Five years ago my husband had an affair while training for an Ironman. His training partner was a "friend". It has been a long road...but I'm/We're in a very, very good place right now. We did a metric ton of counseling. We've both grown. Actually, the whole process has given me some prospective and greater boundaries in dealing with my FOO. At the time, I was just starting out in triathlon. Tomorrow, I will do my first full Ironman.(2.5 mile swim, 116 miles on a bike, and 26.2 run back to back) And, my husband has become the most supportive partner in the process. He's owned his mistakes, taken himself in hand, and become the husband I've always dreamt of and didn't know that I could have. Granted, the whole thing about having abusive parents, my bar for all of that was PRETTY low.
A few days after this race, he's taking me on some long awaited extended travel. Our 3rd "2nd" honeymoon in the last few years. We're semi-retired. Kiddo is off a university.
Mom has been on best behavior as of late. I invited her to lunch, as I'm not sure when I'll get another chance in the next 2-3 months. And, she's been on "best behavior".

Before walking to the restaurant she handed me an envelope...saying they were the last of my papers. They were literally all letters I had written to her, Mother's Day cards, birthday cards, letters while I was away in university, etc. But, they were always meant for her. Weird....but whatever. Thanks for the emotional dump right before I'm going to do the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, mom. I would never dream of giving the childhood letters my son wrote to me...back to him. I cherish them. I look them over occasionally and fondly remember those times in our lives and what he wrote in his child hands and with his child heart.

While at lunch, she pointedly asked me why I stayed with my husband. My real reason.. I stayed because, 1. I love him. 2. He grew and chanced through this process. And 3. Has taken responsibility for healing our marriage and supporting me while I have healed from his affair. It's not perfect, but we lean into each other. That's true. I just answered that it was because he had changed. She then proceeds to tell me that that is what she thought about my father and why she stayed with him so long. My father was an abusive alcoholic and drug addict. He physically assaulted all of us about twice a year after a bender. He couldn't hold a job. And, I finished high school traveling between campgrounds because we were homeless. She stayed with him 20 years. Not to diminish the Gordian knot that is escaping an abusive spouse with children. But, these are NOT the same.

Then proceeded to tell me that she never felt "homeless" when I provided free housing outside of our home (she was with us at the time)....but just sad. (It was a nightmare having her live with us and nearly broke me) Literally, every one of my FOO called to berate me because I had kicked her out and made her homeless. So, I know she used those words with everyone.

Back to Ironman. I've turned off my phone. She keeps calling or texting asking how to see me on the course. I keep referring her to the spectator tips section of the website. I'm sure, when she's not there, I'll be to blame yet again.

Why do I keep discounting the person the toxicity of the person I've been dealing with my whole life??

treesgrowslowly · September 24, 2023, 08:12:02 AM

Hello liketheducks,

Before I went NC with my mother, she pulled this same sort of crap. The clue for me, in reading your post, is that you said that she'd been on her 'best behavior'.

Then she made the day before your Ironman race all about....HER. This is who she is. This is sad, and having mothers like this is awful. I am sorry you went through that. I learned that my narcissistic parents will always be like this. They can behave for a period of time, and then they always always revert to making it about them. She's not healthy.

That is an amazing amazing achievement to do the Ironman. Congrats to you!!

Trees

moglow · September 24, 2023, 08:52:41 AM

First off, deeply impressed with your commitment with the Ironman!! That's no small feat, kudos to you and wishing your personal best ever on the route!

I can only parrot Trees' words above - that best behavior is always for me a tip off that there's more behind it, riding that rail like a freight train. I always wanted to tell her, don't butter me up just say whatever it is and get it over with. Also agree about her making your accomplishments about her. DON'T! Glad you turned her calls off, you don't need that kind of distraction.

Mine has a tendency to dredge ancient history, ask intrusive questions and even with the random "gifting" too. She gets comfortable with her agenda then out it comes. Not that she kept anything from our childhood but more of a "you said you liked this color..." way (But on the ugliest shirt ever??! No).

It's all to redirect back to her and somehow to excuse her poor choices/my supposed poor treatment of her. It did help me realize I have to be careful what and if I share - it all seems set aside as ammunition for later. Maybe she wants some common ground of misery? Mines not happy unless dragging others down, so do with that what you will.

That hope you have may be something she's just not capable of. It's almost an expectation that if you do A she'll (like a normal person) respond with B then you can C ... only shes jumped ahead to M and has gone sideways while you're left wondering again how she got there.

I'm still learning that acceptance is my friend. Accept what I have in the moment and try to not read more into it, because I know it can and will flip on a dime. It's not the dread or expectation I used to live - it's so much more peaceful!

InvisibleDaughter · September 24, 2023, 09:12:15 PM

Awhile back my NPD Mom gave me back my Baby book. She had been slowly giving me back childhood items over the past year. It's things that most parents would cherish.

When you spoke of getting your letters back, I understood how you felt. For me it was like they are letting you know how little you mean to them.

My husband went to rehab after I found out his drug use had escalated and my Mom also questioned me on why I stayed.

It's never a conversation that has any empathy, it's just judgement.

Thank You for sharing, you are not alone.

Liketheducks · September 25, 2023, 05:50:50 AM

What was really funny was trying to keep a straight face when mom complained that her feet hurt walking to the car at the finish

Montrell79 · October 01, 2023, 08:54:42 AM

Hi Liketheducks

How incredibly sad that your mom would bring back all the cards and letters from your younger days. I think it's because she doesn't feel worthy of those affirmations of love from her child. But still, how hurtful and rejected that would make any adult child feel. You loved your mother like we all do as children. You deserve better, I'm so sorry you had to go through this before your big day. Also, it was as if you couldn't have your own struggle that you overcame with your husband. It had to be compared to what she went through. She doesn't seem to be happy for you that you were able to work things out and stay together because in her world, there's never a happy ending. It's truly none of her business. I'm happy for you on all fronts! Great work on the Ironman. That shows so much discipline and commitment. She may be jealous of those attributes you demonstrate as well.

Liketheducks · October 02, 2023, 06:28:17 AM

Montrell79...that jealousy makes perfect sense. She found out about the affair from a friend of a friend. And, it was probably the worst kept secret in our small town. Then she decided it would be brilliant to let me know, she knew. Not, reach out to me to see how I was doing. But, hold it as a form of currency.

I just don't understand feeling jealous of my child. I want to celebrate my son's accomplishments. I'm happy for him. But, she's expressed jealousy with me for a very long time. I just didn't think....best behavior and all.

I know that I need to protect myself and my boundaries when regard to my dad. He's much more overt with his "stuff". At least I can see them coming. WIth mom....I don't see it until after the fact.

mary_poppins · October 17, 2023, 05:06:03 AM

Quote from: moglow on September 24, 2023, 08:52:41 AMFirst off, deeply impressed with your commitment with the Ironman!! That's no small feat, kudos to you and wishing your personal best ever on the route!

I can only parrot Trees' words above - that best behavior is always for me a tip off that there's more behind it, riding that rail like a freight train. I always wanted to tell her, don't butter me up just say whatever it is and get it over with. Also agree about her making your accomplishments about her. DON'T! Glad you turned her calls off, you don't need that kind of distraction.

Mine has a tendency to dredge ancient history, ask intrusive questions and even with the random "gifting" too. She gets comfortable with her agenda then out it comes. Not that she kept anything from our childhood but more of a "you said you liked this color..." way (But on the ugliest shirt ever??! No).

It's all to redirect back to her and somehow to excuse her poor choices/my supposed poor treatment of her. It did help me realize I have to be careful what and if I share - it all seems set aside as ammunition for later. Maybe she wants some common ground of misery? Mines not happy unless dragging others down, so do with that what you will.

That hope you have may be something she's just not capable of. It's almost an expectation that if you do A she'll (like a normal person) respond with B then you can C ... only shes jumped ahead to M and has gone sideways while you're left wondering again how she got there.

I'm still learning that acceptance is my friend. Accept what I have in the moment and try to not read more into it, because I know it can and will flip on a dime. It's not the dread or expectation I used to live - it's so much more peaceful!

Thanks, moglow. Your comment helped me a lot. What you said about them being on the best behavior but knowing that they'll flip on a dime resonated with me. PD mom is the same, she fakes being nice most of the time to get into my good graces. It bothers me because I want her to be herself and say whatever is on her mind instead of faking it.
But that would mean she'll be horrible 24/7 and she knows that puts people off and hates it when people abandon her (she lost friends, acquiantances and siblings due to her horrible behavior).

@Liketheducks
I think discount your mom's toxicity makes sense. We all want to believe they can change because if we thought they're incapable of being kind, we'd need to cut ties with them. And losing our families for good is incredibly painful. We'd have to be orphans and go searching for new parental figures in the world. That's a hard task especially if we're older.

Acceptance though, is the best medicine. They are nice to us because they want something from us that benefit them. They don't want to bond with us, they don't want to get to know us. They want to survive with their illness and for that, they need us, their adult children. That's who they are.

Call Me Cordelia · October 17, 2023, 06:08:57 AM

I have been given back childhood cards and homemade gifts, well before NC. The subtext there was clearly that I was much better as a child and I should go back to being that way. But I'm not that way anymore so... good riddance.

Liketheducks · October 17, 2023, 06:19:08 AM

Cordelia....I hear you. It's not even a subtext from my mom. She wants back what she thought our relationship was before when I was in the FOG. When I put herself in her shoes...she created a pretty dutiful daughter who would have done anything to make her happy (if that was ever possible). Makes me sad for her that she just can't see that.

NarcKiddo · October 17, 2023, 06:42:59 AM

Quote from: Liketheducks on October 17, 2023, 06:19:08 AMCordelia....I hear you. It's not even a subtext from my mom. She wants back what she thought our relationship was before when I was in the FOG. When I put herself in her shoes...she created a pretty dutiful daughter who would have done anything to make her happy (if that was ever possible). Makes me sad for her that she just can't see that.

In her shoes - why would she even want to see that? It puts her squarely in the position of the manipulator she was/is. Or did you mean that you are sad she cannot see how dutiful and loving you were towards her? I get that, too, because it seems nothing is ever quite good enough for them. Even when you are deep in the FOG, bending over backwards, something more is always necessary.

Call Me Cordelia · October 17, 2023, 11:08:47 AM

Yeah that whole, "You were such a good child, I don't know what happened." Sigh...

This when I was on the dean's list every semester, never got in trouble, quit a good job so I could come home for a holiday... Yes, absolutely, never good enough. The problem was I had started individuating, despite still being majorly in FOG. The threat to their sovereignty was there. But I remember being beaten an awful lot for such a good child.

The past is whatever narrative is convenient at the moment. I was also the WORST baby.

moglow · October 17, 2023, 11:20:08 AM

QuoteShe wants back what she thought our relationship was before when I was in the FOG. When I put herself in her shoes...she created a pretty dutiful daughter who would have done anything to make her happy (if that was ever possible). Makes me sad for her that she just can't see that.

Makes sense - I think mine is probably much the same. She didn't "grow" with me, if that makes sense. She stayed stuck in her mindset and it allowed for no deviations, no individuality or difference of the simplest opinions. I was supposed to adapt to her rather than growing myself. As I made friends, started working etc, didn't ask for her input instead choosing to do it on my own, she shut down. I didn't reject her so much as just made other choices, and she took offense to that.

BUT I carried on and played the game with her no matter what she threw at me. I continued to go back and swallow more, even when it tore me apart and made me sick. When I finally stood up for myself and pushed back, in her eyes the dutiful daughter was gone. It wasn't until years after that, that I realized I never existed for her. She sees everything as an extension of herself - if you're not 100% in agreement and "on her side", she thinks you see her as "wrong" and she hasn't any room for you.

NarcKiddo · October 17, 2023, 11:54:58 AM

Quote from: Call Me Cordelia on October 17, 2023, 11:08:47 AMI was also the WORST baby.

I was ugly. Imagine having to look after an ugly child. The misery.

Liketheducks · October 17, 2023, 01:17:44 PM

LOL...it was clear that I was never as attractive as my mother. She was a local pagent queen. Had a counseling session where the counselor described my time in the FOG as "being her child". I'm no longer fulfilling that role. She wants that child back....out of a 55 yr old woman. That ain't gonna happen.
Moglow....I totally identify with her not growing with me. My mom still feels stuck. WHen I try to reverse engineer the whole thing....because overthinking is our super power....I'm saddened that she can't see me for who I am as an individual and grow with me. She will always miss the child who left her in middle age and manipulate accordingly to try to get me back in that role.

moglow · October 17, 2023, 02:22:26 PM

Liketheducks, does she not see *you* specifically or is she so self involved that she sees no one else? I think that's what made the difference for me, was seeing that it wasn't just me, the individual. It truly isn't personal with md, because she doesn't see anyone outside herself. To be so self involved and yet completely lack self awareness is mind boggling to me - I thought at some point she'd wake up, see the people right in front of her, realize that no one was out to get her or cause her harm. The constant grasping with little to no give on her part, shoved everyone out of her life.

Liketheducks · October 17, 2023, 02:26:35 PM

I feel fairly sure that she see's everyone as an extension of herself....or specifically how they affect her.

moglow · October 17, 2023, 03:30:02 PM

There's a sort of comfort in it for me, that I'm not singled out and defective/lacking [as she always told me I was]. So many negative spiteful messages I was fed, and I'm just now really sorting through it all and not seeing "that person" she always said I was. I became very careful what I shared with her, knowing all the things she'd told me that clearly she shouldn't have and "but don't tell xyz I told you this."

Md is the wheel around which everything revolves, if you ask her. She'll play nice long enough to get whatever she wants or get comfortable, then the claws and poison come out. With that, she's made it clear she's aware of what she's doing and can absolutely turn it on and off. She turns on everyone eventually, and now is alone.

sunshine702 · October 18, 2023, 05:05:37 PM

The sending the childhood items back —- YES THIS HAPPENED TO MY Scapegoat Brother and Me The invisible /helper child.

She was "doing some spring cleaning" and sent us both our baby books and photo albums of us and me a quilt made when I was toddler. It was WEIRD. And yeah really dismissive/ hurtful. It makes sense I suppose if we had kids - a family heirloom. But we were the kids that we so mentally abused we both consciously choose NOT to have kids.

You know I bet you money that did not happen to Golden Child I bet his stuff is kept and cherished.

During my divorce I stopped talking to my mom I blocked her calls. It was an extremely painful difficult thing so I instinctively did not add to the mix. Stand firm this is YOUR thing and your marriage. Her input is not necessary

Liketheducks · October 18, 2023, 05:25:00 PM

Up until exiting the FOG....I WAS the golden child. That role has since shifted to another of my siblings who had been invisible. When I stopped being her mini me....I was no longer the golden child. I don't begrudge him that. He's finally getting SOME attention. He was literally left to raise himself. My other sibling who was the scapegoat, doesn't speak to her. She SAYS she's given back all the things to each of us siblings, but we don't talk about it.