Does going NC feel appealing when it’s really not a healthy option now?

[Call Me Cordelia]

So I'm having some difficulties with different personalities in my community. Some even with those I would consider close friends. I'm having fantasies about just blowing it all up, moving again, starting over, becoming a hermit.

The difficulties I'm encountering really don't warrant that extreme of a response. The people involved are not bad people, not pwPD, perhaps some fleas and just, you know, flaws. Really irritating flaws.  Flaws that hit me right in the CPTSD. I've been cranking out the awesome lately and nobody even cares because it's just expected, in many parts of my life.

Going NC was such a release and it's so tempting to just imagine I could escape the realities of needing to just work things out with people, you know?

I feel very petty and resentful and my inner and outer critics have just been going nuts lately. I feel that nobody really loves me and wouldn't notice if I disappear. Until they needed something from me. Mary may have chosen the better part but everybody's eating the food Martha made, ain't I right? Did anyone even thank her? Jerks.

Sure it's fine to take a break and rest. I need to do that and I will. But first I need to deal with these everlasting emotions. Ugh.

[notrightinthehead]

Two ideas come to mind. Radical acceptance and self compassion.

It has helped me greatly to just accept unpleasant feelings, critical and judgmental thoughts, envy, resentment, rejection, you know, all the feelings that we don't like when we have them. I have used a guided mindfulness meditation to allow these feelings and really feel them. Somehow they fade after such a practice and don't bother me further.

And when I feel sad and unappreciated I listen to a self compassion meditation by Neff.

Becoming a hermit is also an option, but I doubt you will manage that, given your busy social life and the size of your family. After I left my husband I had to make my house a place one could live in and did a lot of work myself. There were day when I spoke to nobody. Saw no one. Sometimes it felt strange to speak at the checkout till. I don't think it's a healthy way to live. One can get a lot done though, and nobody contradicts you, nobody doubts you, you can be the queen of your own castle in the clouds. Quite enjoyable for a while, but I find it still better to live in reality, amongst troublesome people.

[miffyxo]

I totally get how you feel! My automatic instinct when I feel let down is to move somewhere else, quit my job. I think it must be a common side effect of having to have dealt with so much trauma in the past, it sets our flight response way off! You might be having some emotional flashbacks right now too, caused by peoples behaviour maybe reminding you a bit of behaviour you have experienced in the past. I would try to work through it, and best to only move if you think it's an exciting decision for you. I've lived in two different cities, and found people can have the exact same behaviours in both!

[NarcKiddo]

Might you be expecting perfection from these annoying others, instead of good enough?

I am always tempted to drop people and move on at the vaguest mistake from them. Usually they are unaware of the mistake because I have not made requests of them or indicated in any way what I need from them. I find it almost impossible to say "no". Perfectly normal behaviour can trigger an emotional flashback in me. But I can't tell them of my vulnerabilities. I don't get close to people because of this so there is never much of a relationship to drop.

Via therapy I am trying to learn how to be and accept "good enough" so I can build relationships. It's tough. I'm not (yet) convinced it is worth it, but the alternative has not served me well over the past half century. I have survived, but not thrived. So I am prepared to give it a go.

[Boat Babe]

My uBPD grandmother was called Martha and always said that Jesus, Mary and company were happy to eat Martha's food after the teaching! As a collapsed Catholic I totally get the teaching (better to cultivate your spirit rather than your body) but everyone gets hungry eventually!

You sound like you're having problems with people who take you for granted Cordelia and I am sorry to hear that. Is it possible to step back for a few weeks/months to give yourself a break and for people to realise just how much you do? That would be better than burning out or getting bitter (I'm sure you wouldn't) about it. Sending hugs

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yes, being taken for granted is a piece of it. Having been a scapegoat for most of my life that one is a big trigger for me, and I've been getting it on several fronts. Also that busyness trigger Miffy talked about! I don't think I was expecting perfection. The disappointment was legitimate, but harder to deal with in that combo punch.

So yes, very much so on being in a massive emotional flashback. It's easing now. I'm not moving lol.

I'm AM going to take a little kayaking getaway with just my husband. 

[Tribe16]

I'm AM going to take a little kayaking getaway with just my husband. 

That sounds heavenly! I hope it's a peaceful, refreshing recharge and renewal for you!

[treesgrowslowly]

There are a lot of decent people who are in a 'me me me' state right now. I'm feeling it too.

Those of us with trauma and empathy need to pull back from those around us who are in their 'me me me' states. IMHO.

It does seem like this year, more people emerged out from their shell - given the stresses of 2020 - 2022, but (as could have been predicted) most of them are making sure they take more than they give.

In a childish way, they have to make sure that everything is 'worth their time' and a childish way to do that is to take take take from us. This leaves many of us feeling taken advantage of - because we WERE just taken advantage of! This is their way of feeling 'safe' back out in the world. They leave their house but only if someone will give them something for their effort.

It takes a lot less emotional maturity to take than to give. So I'm not surprised if some of us feel taken advantage of right now. Lots of takers out there. And not all of them are PDs or narcissists. They are just feeling their way through the world and probably a lot of them are just used to taking, and have forgotten how to give as well. Some people were not good at giving even before the last few years of stress.

Perhaps, what little generosity they had, is now buried underneath several years of feeling stressed? If they don't attend to this in their own life, they might never really 'recover' and remember how to socialize with us in a more generous, open way.

For the average person, taking comes naturally, giving is a choice. Giving their time, giving their kindness, giving to others is always a choice. Few people will need to be reminded how to enjoy a free cookie when offered to them. But how many of them want to remember that it is also enjoyable to share and give of themselves as well??

I do wonder if people have lost the belief that sharing of themselves is actually enjoyable. A lot of people are acting as if giving has no benefit to them. I also wonder how many people have endured narc abuse over the last few years and can no longer trust anyone around them. I wonder how much of the behaviour we see in people is because they are actually in survival mode. 

Is it wise to forget how stressed out the last 3 years have been for so many peopl?. And how are most people going to behave after all of that stress?

They can revert to less mature states, and maybe a lot of people in our communities are just going to stay in that regressed state for a while longer.

I think that survivors of PD abuse who have their empathy intact face some challenges. People who expect a lot from us. It's like we're constantly filling their cup because their cup has a hole it in. We try to fill their cup in an effort to re-connect with them. It doesn't even occur to them to fill our cup sometimes too.

IMHO if you feel you were taken advantage of, you probably were. The person may not even realize they did it. Being self-aware is also a choice.

Trees

[Pinkos]

Wow Trees!! Thanks for that - I really needed to read that! It is an impossible situation - to want connection so desperately and yet recoil at every interaction because you repeatedly feel taken advantage of in these me me me dynamics. It's important to call it what it is. But lately I feel like this problem is way bigger than me. As you've observed there's been a shift since the pandemic. I don't think I could do anything differently honestly. Of course I'm not perfect and I'm sure I have my me me me moments but I feel like I'm self-aware enough to know that I'm not a taker. That's not me at my core. I'm a generous person who feels taken advantage of. And I don't think I'm asking for too much either. In other words, I don't think it's me! I like give and take. And I just can't do the one-sided relationships anymore. I don't think I can change that about myself. As much as I feel emotionally isolated, I can't be in a one-sided relationship where I have to do all the work...do all the give and just cope with the emotional drain. I can't! It makes me so angry and sad for myself, OP and everyone in a similar boat.

I don't know what the answer is but this is hard!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Pinkos,

It is really hard. When they go out and attend events, and socialize, most people who are coming out of a stressful period may lead with "I'll get what I need first". And then it really depends on how emotionally matured they are. If they are able to get back into a more appreciative state, that is great. But a lot of the people we meet might just be in their me me me state right now. And there's not much we can do about that.

   Now I do think that survivors of PD abuse who have done some healing and recovery, can see social events very differently. We see them as opportunities to connect with others. But for the average person who has been going through life with a sort of programming in place where they don't see life through the survivor glasses that we have to wear, life is different for them. They go to events, but they may not do much (or anything) to connect with anyone around them. In contrast, survivors who are looking to connect can end up feeling frustrated as you described. When you need to connect, there has to be someone to authentically connect to.

I'm also looking at it from the logic of a person's stress response. The last few years stressed them out, and so (without really having much self-awareness about it) they are socializing again, but they want to make sure it is 'good' for them. And the way they do this is to take more than they give, because in the short term, this is what makes them feel good when they are around people (after several years of having so many events they didn't / couldn't attend). It might help to think about how rusty we might be right now.

We can be super generous people, but if we go to an event where no one else is feeling generous, our generous state isn't going to impact on them in the way we hope. As a survivor of PD parental abuse, I assumed a lot about non PD people. Forgetting or not realizing they may not be interested in being generous with me. For various reasons. Has that happened to you as well?

Sadly I just don't think there's much we can do with regards to changing where other people are at. 

We may need to keep up our curiosity and self-care and learning and growing without trying to get others to join us in much of it. At least right now.

We want the healthy relationships we couldn't have with our disordered FOO. In my FOO system, giving and taking was pretty messed up. Some people were expected to give, some people were taking taking taking. Some of my relatives were very stingy, and you'd never ever find them being generous without having an ulterior motive. So it is ok if that same behavior upsets me when I see it "out in the wild". It exists outside of my FOO. I have to remind myself of this. 

I can relate to what Cordelia wrote about fleas and flaws in the OP. Some of my relatives let their fleas 'run wild' when they were triggered. (fly wild?). So when I see that in others, now as an adult, it still bothers me. It reminds me of the times I had to watch older relatives act out those same fleas.

One sided-relationships are not the answer. So true!

Trees

[Pinkos]

Hi Trees - I appreciate your thoughtful response and the opportunity to process this complex and difficult issue in my life right now and in, what I suspect, many others on here. I'm not sure that I agree that the pandemic is to blame for a lot of this. Although I agree that the pandemic has shifted social and political dynamics in very complex ways that I won't even pretend to understand. But I think many of us were experiencing these issues before the pandemic. You are more generous than me towards people who have this take take take mentality. I see people like this as opportunists. I see it as a fundamental character issue and unchangeable. Now do I think that in some cases it's a stress response and will eventually shift? Absolutely but in a lot of cases it tends to be fixed. Or at the very least these types of people have fixed roles for the people in their lives. For example, they may be giving to someone who they view as having more social power than them whereas with me they may see me as not worthy for that kind of giving. Or they may see my generosity as something to be exploited...a sign of weakness. I do often feel taken advantage of. Now there are people who may just be disinterested in me socially and make zero overtures! I suspect we're not really talking about these types of people. And I am in complete agreement that it's important to read people in social situations and understand not everyone is looking to connect/make friends/have deep, meaningful interactions. I completely understand that. And neither am I honestly. I don't want to make connections with everyone I meet either. I will attend social events and there are people I don't even want to make small talk with.

From what I've read on here and from my own experiences, most of the pain is coming from those who engage us opportunistically. And it's hard for me to have a generous view towards this group.

Everyone has a stress response. I spent the pandemic completely isolated. I didn't come out of it with the attitude of just looking  to take take and take though. Apparently, a bunch of people got rescue dogs during the pandemic in order to help with the isolation and when the pandemic ended they returned the dogs!!! I predict people who do this type of thing have a character issue and it's not a stress response. They are OK with using and discarding people/pets once they have gotten what they want. People are disposable to them. It's a question of values. It's a question of culture and what society rewards. I think when you continually celebrate individualistic values this may be what you get. There will be people who think this kind of me me me attitude is good and key to social success.

For those of us who value meaningful community, it's extremely hard to find our place. It's exhausting and disillusioning to repeatedly run into this wall.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Pinkos,

Feeling exhausted is probably quite common for many of us right now. It is ok to feel exhausted. There has been a lot that has depleted us. I agree with you - for those of us who value "meaningful community" as you wrote, it is hard to find.

There is a lot that goes into a healthy group and meaningful community. Can meaningful community exist without trust?

In order for trust to develop, people need to feel safe. They need to know they are not going to get exploited. It is disheartening to realize someone has taken advantage of our desire for meaningful community. I wish there were some clear answers to this issue. I believe you - you didn't come out of the pandemic isolation looking to take take take. People with empathy don't feel good when they've taken taken taken, so there are many of us who are in this same boat now. We are not out to take take take, and we have to figure out where we belong.

I agree with you that this issue stretches back way beyond the pandemic times. The capacity to contribute to a meaningful community has to be developed in a person's mind. It has to be part of their value system. I've met many people who are living their lives, and they are not interested in building community. There's just no interest. Have you found this as well?

Trees

[Pinkos]

@Trees Exactly, the capacity to develop meaningful relationships is rooted in one's value system. It's also a learned behavior. It comes from your family system and the culture. I just think we're in a dark time right now culturally.

I'm glad you brought up Trust. That is key. It reminded me of a journalist talking about our current political polarization on a podcast and she said that (I think she cited studies for this but can't remember exactly) most people don't want to listen to others because they feel others don't/won't listen to them. If you feel people just don't care about your perspective, then you develop this calloused view yourself and decide you're not going to care about others' perspective and you'll just push your agenda only.

I also think people want the other person to carry all the risk. Extreme self-protection. Maybe we have just become too focused on 'safety.' And if you are a person who craves meaningful relationships, you know intuitively you have to reach out i.e., take risks. The problem is when the other person doesn't drop their guard and extend a hand back. And if you somehow let them down or disappoint them can they withstand it/risk repairing things or is it just over? If people don't work the emotional muscle to withstand relational hurts/disappointments then it's a never ending cycle of confusion and pain for all of us.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Catching up on this whole discussion, and I'm finding it very interesting. This seems really relevant to the whole thing:

https://ncase.me/trust/

It's basically a game/demonstration of how these dynamics play themselves out in a community over time. I think many of us were conditioned to be the "always give" sorts. That's not really good for us. But anyway take some time and play with that, it's worth it.

[treesgrowslowly]

Wow Cordelia that is a cool website. Thanks for sharing.

We can't know what the other person is going to do. This seems like the crux of the problem. We really can't expect people to think about us. 

Which I think goes to what Pinkos pointed out so well - there are people who want the other person to shoulder the risk. I agree. I have seen this. The other person simply assumes that others (i.e. us) can / will take on the risk, so they don't have to.

The socializing that happens under these conditions always lacks depth.

Trees

[Call Me Cordelia]

What you describe is going into an interaction with a defensive posture. Actually I think that game I posted demonstrates the harm of that. If you go in on the defense, people are likely to (appropriately) reciprocate. If you go in open, you might meet openness or resistance, but if you are emotionally intelligent you can pivot your stance without major harm and adjust as you go. Flexible but reasonable boundaries that are appropriate for the situation and relationship as it develops. These are high level skills for many of us, pwPD or CPTSD or otherwise. But living this way has a positive impact on our own life AND the larger community!

[Pinkos]

@Call Me Cordelia I think that's the perfect distillation of this discussion. I don't know if others feel this way but I feel like I tend to try to overcompensate because of my upbringing and thinking I'm somehow more dysfunctional than the next person who grew up with loving/functional parents. So I have to try harder. Perhaps that's where the resentment and exhaustion is brewing.

I agree that this is not a lack only ppl with CPTSD or dysfunctional upbringings have to work on. It's common. And flexibility is key. The answer is not necessarily 'must try harder/do more etc' in whatever form that takes.

[Hilltop]

I really enjoyed it as well.  Interestingly miscommunication came up as being a major factor in distrust and this is something common with the uPD's in my life.  A little miscommunication you can work with.

Pinkos I agree flexibility is key and that we don't have to work harder.  In saying that I feel we are also raised to do that work.  Even as a teenager I was told to try more,  communicate more,  do more even though years down the track I see that even when I did try, it didn't help.

I guess that's why the answer is not in them but ourselves.  If we learn to trust ourselves to handle interactions when they arise we may be less defensive going into that interaction.

[treesgrowslowly]

What you describe is going into an interaction with a defensive posture. Actually I think that game I posted demonstrates the harm of that. If you go in on the defense, people are likely to (appropriately) reciprocate. If you go in open, you might meet openness or resistance, but if you are emotionally intelligent you can pivot your stance without major harm and adjust as you go. Flexible but reasonable boundaries that are appropriate for the situation and relationship as it develops. These are high level skills for many of us, pwPD or CPTSD or otherwise. But living this way has a positive impact on our own life AND the larger community!

You are right. This is so true that we need to be able to pivot our stance before major harm occurs. And I totally agree with you, these are high level skills that we need in order to manage that.

Thanks for writing that Cordelia. I'm so depleted lately, and lacking that flexibility that is needed.

Trees

[Pinkos]

@Hilltop agreed that we were taught to do more and work harder by our FOO! And as you said,

"If we learn to trust ourselves to handle interactions when they arise we may be less defensive going into that interaction."

This is quite insightful. And 9 times out of 10 this is what makes me defensive! I don't feel confident that I'll be able to handle whatever arises.  And I reflexively "try harder", which leads to exhaustion/resentment, which keeps me stagnant and forever frustrated in this de-skilled stage. I feel like confidence only comes when you see results from your efforts.

@trees I'm with ya! I feel so depleted too!