Low contact progress and setbacks

[SaintBlackSheep]

It's been a few weeks of my effort to go VLC with my nMom and enDad.
I'm having trouble because the seasons are changing and I'm feeling a weird urge to reach out to them and make holiday plans, which is NOT WHAT I WANT! It's just a habit, or some sad longing for better parents. I always forget just how awful they are, and then I'm always shocked at first, when I have more stress-induced heart problems after a visit with them. I've been journaling their behaviors to look back on, which is enough of a reminder that they are toxic and insane and I've already done for them WAYYYY more than they deserve and way more than they've ever reciprocated. I'm not a pushover in general, but these nParent wounds sure are tough to heal! Especially when they keep inserting themselves in my life, or trying to, and then I have to set boundaries over and over. It's so stressful and exhausting.

Anyway, VLC w them means I'm aiming for a short video chat once every other week. We made it 10 days but now nMom is trying to make it sooner. Before this effort, she used to just call on the Alexa every night right as we were having dinner, and one of my kids would answer whether it was a good time or not (is it ever a good time?  ) So the kids are no longer answering Alexa. Now, I'm getting weird text messages from nMom begging for a FaceTime chat in a very weird cutesy tone. I ignored the texts all week, and now she's back to obsessively texting me while I'm at work, at a job that demands my whole attention for most of the day. I do have my phone with me in case my kids need me, but I ignore all other communications and don't really get a lot of other texts during the day in general.
She is also tagging me in fb memes about mothers and daughters. 
The last two video chats have been very strained. I directly said enDad needs to get a hearing aid because he's impossible to communicate with AND he's rude or inappropriate with the kids because he has no idea what the conversation is and will interrupt even when a kid is telling him something important to them. I refuse to be put in the position of having to console my 9 y.o. because her Gramp was rude to her again! Well, enDad did not like that I told him to get a hearing aid, and so he slumped down and pouted the rest of the call with his arms crosses, and sat in the background of the last call visibly slumped over and pouting too.

nMom tried repeatedly to broach the subject of me reducing contact, but she is so addled in her mind and I am so good at dodging her efforts to manipulate me that she couldn't make much progress. I saw this as a cue to end the call, but she kept commanding me to call more often, claiming that she "CAN'T" call me because she "never knows when it's a good time." This was not simply stated, it was histrionically professed. I said "I don't have a lot of time right now. Call if you want, but we have a lot going on. If we're busy, we won't pick up." I ended the video call and walked away to use the bathroom, but nMom called back to get the last word, and Teen picked up, unfortunately.

Teen is becoming more protective of me due to my stress-induced heart problems. I heard her say "...it's better if you call us when you're able." nMom said "but WhyYy can't you just call me???? I'm AlWaYs HoOoOomE!" Teen said "Yea, but you're rarely lucid enough to make a call. If your brain is working enough to operate FaceTime, that's better than us catching you in...one of your moods! I gotta go! Bye!" and hung up. That was last Thursday, and since Monday, she's been trying to suck me back in again. I am so proud of my badass teen but I hate that she feels that she has to defend me. We talk about it a lot and how it's not her job to deal with these nutcases. She says its actually easier for her than it is for me, because it doesn't get to her, and to her, they're just crazy old people but to me, it's a lifetime of problems. I love her but don't want her to bear any part of this burden.

[moglow]

Dear Lord. How many different ways must you explain to her - you have work, the kids have school, none of that is new! Your family has a lot going on, thus time is limited and you call when you can. Her insistence for more just isn't practical and your job isn't to pander to her aaaaaalways being hoooooome! Fact: if we're not answering, it's not a good time. Period.

[Side fyi - you can also nip the fb foolishness too. Set fb where people can't tag you in things ]

[treesgrowslowly]

Sadly, this is where VLC can end up causing so much drama - when the immature parent can't deal with it and a sign of this is that their reactions are  histrionic that you describe. Been there. Not all immature parents are like this but those who are, are miserable to deal with. As you are experiencing. They experience your VLC and boundaries as affronts to their rights as parents. Again, not all immature parents are like this - some are more passive but some are not.

In my experience, VLC is very hard to hold on to with the histrionic type of immature aging parent. They are grasping for power and control over people who are not theirs to control.

With this type of parent who is prone to histrionics, saying "Call if you want" will probably confuse them - and upset them. Your boundaries probably need to be very very cut and dried. "I will talk to you next Sunday" repeated over and over on your call, and they can take it or leave it. But what you are really doing is challenging the control they want over the relationship with you. This has upset them.

What's really going on beneath this power play over who will call and who will answer the call, could be the ambivalence you feel about the upcoming holiday season. I started feeling anxious about the upcoming season a few weeks ago too.

This season is hard on a lot of us here at Out of the FOG because it is this big cultural event - people around us are making their travel plans, and other party plans, and the focus is on getting together with our FOO and buying them gifts and the messages around us are all about how wonderful this time of year is (for whom? I'm not sure anymore...). The reality if the upcoming season is that it brings ambivalence for those of us who have PD or immature parents.

There is no simple solution to the problem of not having a happy Norman Rockwell family system to visit with from November to December each year. It feels like society puts pressure on us to have that Norman Rockwell family whether we do or not.

Trees

[moglow]

Your boundaries probably need to be very very cut and dried. "I will talk to you next Sunday" repeated over and over on your call, and they can take it or leave it. But what you are really doing is challenging the control they want over the relationship with you. This has upset them.

This is what I'm thinking too - there's no sense in us expecting anything different from what we already know. If you tell her she "can call if she wants" that's exactly what she'll do, and very likely ramp up when no one answers - you're not denying her the right to call, simply making it clear y'all are busy and nobody may be able to answer. We simply live our boundaries and continue on. "I'll call you next Sunday" means exactly that: You call her, maybe even tell her what time you'll call and stick to that come what may. That means no answering the panicked phone calls in the meantime just because she's feeling bored or lonely. If the kids want to call them, fine, let them call while you continue on with your stuff.

You've not abandoned her and aren't ignoring her - you have a family and jobs and activities and you're living your lives. The inevitable complaints about the lesser contact, you didn't used to be this busy? You don't have to explain or justify one thing, you don't even have to listen her off that edge. Let her voice it and continue with whatever you were saying. And frankly, when you get tired of hearing it and have nothing to say, you can end the call. You really don't have to sit there while she complains that you don't talk as much anymore. THIS IS WHY!!

I think the holiday angst will sort itself once you make your plans without discussion or consulting your parents. You don't have to sit there looking at each other or having her paw through your house just because it's what she's always done. If the kids want to go camping or on on a trip, why not do that? Figure it out then let the kids be all excited when they share the news with gramma and grampa. Or just lowkey it and "we're going to stay home this year, maybe visit with friends nearby, leave things open for the Christmas festival in nearby city." And don't invite her, don't hint and don't apologize. She tries to invite herself? No sorry, there's this program and that play and we're not entertaining this year. Maybe offer to meet them for post Christmas dinner at a restaurant nearby [and if you do, you have to leave by xpm]

[Cat of the Canals]

she kept commanding me to call more often, claiming that she "CAN'T" call me because she "never knows when it's a good time." This was not simply stated, it was histrionically professed. I said "I don't have a lot of time right now. Call if you want, but we have a lot going on. If we're busy, we won't pick up."

I remember your previous post and thinking, "Good god, I think our mothers were separated at birth!" I just got the command "YOU NEED TO CALL ME MORE OFTEN!" the last time we talked, complete with pouty face. Ugh.

I know it probably doesn't feel like it, but I think you've got this. I don't see any setbacks in your behavior. Just your mom doing her same old routine, hoping for different results if she badgers more/harder/louder.

The weird urges to reach out may never go away. I sometimes get wistful/envious when I hear about things my brother's family does with my parents. Like I'm missing out on something. I just take a moment to remember one of any number of family vacations/outings that was ruined by my parents bickering about something absurd, and I remember I'm not missing much.

[moglow]

nMom tried repeatedly to broach the subject of me reducing contact

Random curiosity: What do you talk about with her? Is it a recitation of the same complaints from one call to the next? Does she show any interest or ask questions about anything you say, is she engaging on any level? I ask because a while back we had a thread on phone call bingo - the list of same comments/complaints almost verbatim call after call. Mother gave an unsolicited run down of how she's not getting around well, beatitudes about whoever's been nice to her, snippy comments about whoever she's currently upset with, "you have no idea what's going on up here" yet never elaborated whatever the hell that means or why it has to be brought up, talking to/about the dog's barking, there's a car turning around in her driveway... Once she ran down her list of approved topics, she was DONE and made it clear. Would cut me off mid sentence with Well I need to go. You need to keep in touch/call more often. [But WHY??? It's just more noise.] It doesn't occur to her that if someone called her, maybe they had something to say. No ma'am, that's airspace *she* must fill. And if I don't call, she doesn't call...

For me, if I don't have anything to share I don't see the point in calling, much less every day just to fill a few minutes of a bored person's day. I'm around people or on the phone all day every day - when I get home I want a whole lot of None of that Nonsense! I don't want to break down what happened at work or what I did during lunchtime, I want to unwind with my people/animals. I would imagine you get home and you want time with your family, not yet more mindless conversation or breakdown of what she watched on tv. It's not your fault or responsibility that they don't have/didn't build an inner life, has limited hobbies and/or chooses to not get out and actually live their lives.

Me being selfish. Yes. Yes I am finally!

[SaintBlackSheep]

Oh my gosh, all of your responses are spot on and have done a lot to smooth my ruffled feathers about all this!
Treesgrowslowly--I agree 100% that setting a specific day/time to expect a call would help her figure out the new routine. My only (big) struggle with this is that I have major anxiety and get a ton of anticipatory dread about that date/time looming over my head. I'd be up all night for the 5 nights before every call worrying over it. This is sort of what is already happening with Thanksgiving--just the thought of having to deal with them causes me a lot of distress. I am working to grow past this point, but that's my reality for now. Plus, having to schedule around this planned call would increase my resentment. It's easier for me to just spontaneously decide if I'm in the headspace to be able to answer a call or not; the perfect conditions for me to feel ready to talk with them are when we've all come home from work/school, dinner will be ready in 10-15 minutes, so I can end the call for that reason, OR I'm stuck waiting in the car for a kid's after school activity to wrap up and I've got a few minutes to kill. The second option is less desirable to the parents because their grandkids aren't there to ignore and interrupt and pretend to have a relationship with. :/
Cat, I appreciate your solidarity! It's weird how similar all different people with PDs are, and how much their kids have in common too. I hate that I still have the urge to connect with them. I definitely still feel sad when I hear how other people "couldn't do it without their parents" or I see friends' parents taking their kids for the week for "grandma camp" full of fun activities to bond with their grandkids. My parents have never once watched my kids, changed a diaper, picked them up from school, or done anything at all to lighten my load or bond with their only grandkids. I feel sad about that, and my kids notice their peers have more positive and fulfilling relationships with their grandparents. I remember when my oldest was a toddler and I'd have to race from work to pick her up from daycare on time. One of the other people picking up a kid was a grandma, and she was just so supportive of her daughter, telling me how she keeps the kid 3x/week and he comes to daycare 2x for socializing, she cleans her daughter's house, does their laundry, and gets dinner on every single day for them! I would die for even one day, one time of that help! And to think lots of people get that support from their parents all the time is just unbelievable to me!
I myself was cared for by both my grandmothers while my parents worked. My grandmas were both a handful, they did cause a lot of drama, but they also contributed a lot to the ease of my parents' lives. They never once had to call of work because I had to stay home sick from school. They never once had to lose wages to pick me up early, they always had free babysitting, pet sitting, and food being sent home, dinner getting started, laundry getting switched. My parents have never done any of that, and I would never ask them to because--can you even imagine the histrionics that would ensue?! I asked my mom to come stay with our oldest kid when our youngest was being born, and that was such an ordeal that I would have been better off hiring a stranger and paying her the exorbitant fee of 48 ours of overnight childcare than dealing with my mom feeling so burdened by her "help."

Moglow, I think you're right on point with what these conversations are like. They are both kinda decent at masking the narcissism, but the calls are very one-sided. I try to call when a kid has had an exciting thing to share. I share very little about myself, which I learned at a very early age. They've raised an alternate and idealized version of me, and it's always been easier to just let them keep their fantasy because that smokescreen protects real me from their intrusions. I don't play along, just don't correct their delusions, and even if I did it wouldn't stick in their brains.
A big part of my need to reduce contact is how they are now being hurtful to my kids. My in laws are 100x worse and we are nearly no contact with them, and before my mother's illness-induced dementia, it was a more positive relationship with the only grandparents they have. But now, they'll listen to each kid get halfway through sharing something with them before Deaf enDad interrupts and starts talking about the aches and pains of himself and his friends or Mom cuts them off with "well I don't want to keep you..." They definitely have their list of gripes that they run down. enMom is obsessed with completely stupid medical appointments--just one of many examples--she's been half-bald for 20 years, but suddenly needs lots of medical attention for it, including endocrinologists, dermatologists, scalp biopsies, and on and on. As if doctors are just sitting on a cure for an old lady's hair loss an, one day, she will strike gold and they'll reveal the cure!  They also have lots of dental "problems" that seem very cyclical, and they get their eyes checked twice a year (no, they don't have diabetes or cataracts or anything! WTH?)

I work in a job where I'm talking to people all day too, so I'm pretty done by the time I get home. I too really just want to chill on the porch with my kids and pets! My husband and I have overcome our pasts to build a good life in a location we really love, that is mercifully a pretty far drive from our families!    We have "chosen family" that fulfills us. I guess I just don't have room in my life to be dragged down anymore. my 4+ decades of putting up with my parents' nonsense is long enough!

[treesgrowslowly]

I agree with Cat, I do think that as time goes on, you'll be able to adjust more easily to less frequent contact with her. You got this - as Cat said!

Going into VLC, the transition is rocky. Best case scenario is that over the coming months they reduce the frequency eventually - but with narcissism, it is a personality style where everything is ALL about THEM. So the first few weeks or months after one of their adult children reduces contact, to go for VLC, it can be when they ramp up their nutty behaviors!

This battle over who is in control of your Thanksgiving and holidays is a familiar one for us at Out of the FOG. Over the years, there has been a lot of helpful and supportive discussion about this time of year where all around us, the less PD family systems get to make plans and not have to feel dread (often starting in October), about the tornado of drama is about to take over our lives from November onwards. PD families plus holidays equaled drama for a lot of us because our parents ramped up their obligation stuff. So I am glad you're here and talking about it.

For a lot of us, once we have a few holidays without the PD drama ruining it, that really helps. It's like a new chapter opens up for us. If you can plan a Thanksgiving that gives them very little opportunity to cause drama, I say go for it. They sound like parents who really lean on the obligation aspect of PD family systems. You're not obligated to give them your Thanksgiving weekend.

Trees

[SaintBlackSheep]

Thank you, Trees. It's so refreshing to hear real talk from all the folks here, because as we all know, PDs are NOT in touch with reality! I am their only child and they have no other family left where they live (yet they choose to live there still, which amazes me! It's a terrible part of the country by all accounts!) I need to have it printed on a shirt or a sign that says "they are NOT entitles to my TG weekend!" My birthday is also on TG this year, and last year, nMom was so horribly rude to me at my simple birthday dinner celebration at a restaurant! They'd driven all day to visit us, were exhausted but in denial about that, and acted so rude. She made several hateful comments to me because she was confused about the menu, since the Italian restaurant in our town is--gasp!--DIFFERENT from the Italian restaurant in her town, and has different menu items, which was too much for her addled brain to handle!
 It seems going out to dinner is now a stage for mom's NPD to be showcased. My husband said it reminds him of how one of our kids used to act up at dinner time because she had the whole family gathered around the table as an audience, so she'd act silly and cause mischief instead of eating. nMom's mischief is a whole lot less endearing and I just can't cope with it on my birthday this TG.
And don't even get me started on the perils of them driving all day to visit us! They should not be driving 10 minutes, but I'm not gonna be the one to take their keys!

[SaintBlackSheep]

Ugh! I just got home from work and see a bunch more texts from nMom. I have had a rough week with my kids sick and just trying to disinfect the house and take care of them and take time off work to run them to the doctors, and now I see Mom is wanting to FaceTime today. I said no we can't. Then she texted 3 times wanting to know if they're invited for the holidays, then if we want to take a vacation????? with THEM!!!!!!  Without giving too much info away, our jobs have specific breaks for holidays, and at no point in the fall do we ever have time for a " vacation." This has been the case for 20+ years. I said no. No is a complete sentence right? I said "no." Cue follow up flying monkeys!

[moglow]

Dear heaven. She also doesn't consider that the kids are in school this time of year?! It's the first few days of OCTOBER - we have no idea what what we're doing next week, much less two months from now. [OR, me being mean: We're celebrating my birthday and TG at our favorite restaurant again ... you know the one. ]

No IS a complete sentence. Consider also short polite: "Mom, I mentioned before we have a lot going on right now. I'll call you on [you pick a day] around 5pm." Period end of, that's when you can talk. No matter what she comes back with, don't answer and don't respond. If she can't make herself available when you are, that's on her.

LIVE those boundaries and smile a big ole smile while you do it!

[Cat of the Canals]

It seems going out to dinner is now a stage for mom's NPD to be showcased.

Took me literal decades to finally suss out that the reason my husband "hates going out to eat" is actually that he "hates going out to eat with his PD mother." She can not resist having a captive audience in a public place.

I think the notifications for mom's texts need to get turned off for a few days. You've got your hands full as it is.