How to support without getting sucked into their drama?

[Peace Lily]

I have not been on here in a very long time. Things have been on a fairly even keel. My niece is still no contact with me (which is fine by me) and I have gone from a temporary no contact with my parents (to heal) to VLC as they are now in their late 80s /90s and struggling since my Dad had a health episode and can no longer drive. My sister has been NC with them for many years. I usually stick to the non triggering topics of the weather and gardening, and spend a good deal of time just listening to the monologue about the various health conditions and the moaning about what they can no longer do now they can't drive. None of us mention the numerous elephants in the room, which mostly consist of my other family members. The Tool Box at Out of the FOG has helped a great deal with coping strategies -thank you!

I went to visit my parents on Monday. I had promised myself to bring up the topic of a lasting Power of Attorney, as neither of them have made any provisions and if something were to happen to one of them they would not have access to each other's accounts to pay for care or anything else. I don't want to be the LPA, but if they would just do it for each other, it would put my mind at rest a bit at least. However, this brought up the topic of their wills – they have not made one! Apparently, I am the problem as I have not sorted things out with my niece. I was in the wrong and I just haven't acknowledged it / apologised. They therefore cannot decide who to leave the money to! I really don't want their money (and my Mum told me I was written out of her will in a family dispute 30 years ago anyway). My sister has apparently been in touch to say she loves them and offer help, but they think she is only after their money now she has heard they are struggling (I don't believe this). My Dad asked me who they should leave it to, so I told them their grandchildren. The tax man is going to get loads of their money, which is upsetting them, and apparently that is also my fault as this family rift means they cannot make a will, they will have to have a solicitor as executor (Good!) and they will have to pay for a company to clear the house (That is upsetting me as there are things of mine which my mother has "appropriated" and I was hoping to reclaim).

Well now I have been feeling awful. I thought that I was coping and doing well grey rocking and resisting the hoovering, but I feel anxious and have not been sleeping well since. I am worried what is going to happen, how much support I am willing to give when things get worse, which they inevitably will. I feel bad enjoying aspects of my life whilst knowing they are sitting there day in day out, with my mother picking on my Dad all the time (worse now they don't go out). When I go over there (currently only once a month) it is for my Dad, I feel so bad for him.

If anyone has any insights into how to navigate this situation? Should I just back right out of it and let them make their own mess? Or should I send them links to the Lasting Power of Attorney information? (My Mum wants to do it, but my Dad is nervous). I wish I was NC like my sister, but I am now the only one left who can support them apart from my niece, who I believe seldom visits. Not sure I could live with the guilt of abandoning them.

[NarcKiddo]

What do you suppose they would do with the LPA links if you did send them? It is possible to do the LPA largely online. The forms are less complex than they used to be but they are still pretty daunting. It also takes ages - I think the registration timescale is currently around 16 weeks. Although that is chicken feed compared to what they would have to do if one of them becomes incapacitated and the other has to go through the Court of Protection to get access to funds. If you send the links you might be opening yourself up to pleas for help with doing the forms. And you have already seen how just mentioning the subject gave them the opportunity to bring up the wills.

Nobody can help you with what to do, but in your position I would be having a long think about how much help I was able to give before doing anything else about sending them information. One argument is that you have mentioned the subject so they are now aware and it is up to them to do something, or nothing. Another is that if one of them does become incapacitated will you then feel duty-bound to help the other and wish you had pushed the LPA issue harder.

However, please try not to feel bad for enjoying aspects of your life even if they are not enjoying theirs. You are perfectly entitled to do that. They have made their own choices and if they are now reaping the results - well, that's just how it goes.

[JR]

maybe you can contact a Lawyer and at least have a discussion with  him/her about this situation and gain some insight on some strategies that may be available to negotiate through this tough situation in a legal sense at least. not knowing your options is probably causing you sleeplessness and ruminating about it, i think that there are lawyers that can deal with narcissistic situations and can help untangle you from this burden on you.  Im not sure that Psychiatrists,Psychologists,Clergy,Self help/Life coach's and can help you negotiate Narcissistic situations cause most don't know that this actually exists without diagnosis which is virtually impossible to get.

[Peace Lily]

Thank you NarcKiddo and JR for your very helpful feedback on this.

Nobody can help you with what to do, but in your position I would be having a long think about how much help I was able to give before doing anything else about sending them information. One argument is that you have mentioned the subject so they are now aware and it is up to them to do something, or nothing. Another is that if one of them does become incapacitated will you then feel duty-bound to help the other and wish you had pushed the LPA issue harder.

Yes this is exactly my dilemma. I keep going from "I've done the right thing giving them the information they need to get sorted", and being drawn into the OG part of FOG. I'm lucky enough to be able to count on some good friends, but having gone above and beyond for their own ageing parents, the reality is that I worry what they will think of me if I don't step into this "situation". My SO does understand as they have been there at some of the most difficult times and have been shocked by my parents behaviour!

I have just yesterday seen something on TV about a celebrity who now has Parkinson's and his son who is having a hard time wanting to bring up the subject of residential care in the later stages. An expert advised to listen to the parent and not bring the topic up themselves as doing so would make the parent feel a loss of control over their lives. This has also helped me, as I realise that steering my parents in this direction nis taking away their control, and in the case of a Narcissist, this is very triggering. So, I have made the decision to let them come to their own (hopefully) right conclusion. And if they ask for help with the form I will assist, as it is in my own best interest also.

HI JR and thank you also for your reply on this. I had not thought of contacting a legal professional, and that is a very good idea. I may well get myself briefed if it becomes apparent that my parents are not going to do anything.
A counsellor or therapist can be helpful if you can find one that specialises in narcissism / family disfunction. Mine has certainly helped me in the dark times as has the support and advice at Out of the FOG.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Peace Lily,

Do they not have each other's names on their respective bank accounts? Are they not named as each others beneficiary on bank accounts and pensions? Where I live, that is the norm.   

What I see in your OP is that they are trying to "punish" you for trying to heal. This is common in these messed up families. I've seen it my entire life. My grandmothers were so good at it - oh someone in the family wants boundaries, wants something healthy for herself, wants to take a break from the drama - time to punish her!!

It is absolute nonsense that they do not have a will because of your decision to be NC with someone in the family system. Give me a break. They are adults and people their age make wills. Mature people their age, make wills and deal with life instead of avoiding such tasks.

Narcissists do not do well with thinking about their own mortality. They are extremely immature people when it comes down to it, and so dealing with end of life decision making and estate planning, all of that scares them so they act like your parents are acting. Others here can share about how well their aging narc relatives dealt with issues to do with estate planning and mortality.

The 'hornets nest' is just like you said, it is the obligation and guilt aspect of FOG, where the decent people in the family (you) get sucked in through obligation and guilt, and probably some confusion about why they are acting like this when other people their age are able to do these things.

It doesn't sound like they know how to manage their own decisions without being dramatic and confusing. A common problem with narc parents. It sounds like they were very comfortable, yet again, blaming someone else for their lack of maturity. They are blaming you for not being able to make a will? So what if they have to pay people to do things like manage the estate and clean out the house when they are gone. That is the 'natural consequence' of them having narcissism. None of this has anything to do with you.

One family member going NC with someone does not have anything to do with their inability to figure out their own estate planning. Your NC with your niece does not mean their hands are tied - and if they talked to a lawyer, they would learn that lots of families have estrangements in them. And I would guess that many of those families still make wills. They are acting like they are the victims here.

Your mom wrote you out of her will and you are still willing to visit her in her old age. I would say that you might want to talk with a therapist about what you've been put through and how strong you are for taking all of this on.

The fact that neither of them has a will, means they are leaving each other in the lurch doesn't it? Perhaps when you raised the topic of the lack of a will, you forced them into a corner-because now you've revealed that they are not even capable of taking care of each other properly. The decisions will be left to one of them - are they not capable of talking about how they want to relieve the other of the stress of getting access to bank accounts when the other one is gone? I mean wow, right? One (or both of them) is preventing this necessary estate planning conversation - and it is possible that they know that if they spoke to a lawyer, the lawyer might be shocked that they have not been able to do this for each other.

Trees

[Peace Lily]

Trees, thank you for replying to my post and in such detail.It was very helpful and validating. Although I have had counselling in the past, I am now navigating all this drama on my own and it's good to have some support.

To clarify, if one of my parents dies then the Estate would pass to the other in the absence of a will. However, whilst they are still alive a financial Power of Attorney would be necessary if one were no longer unable to manage their own finances (if they had dementia and had to go into a care home for example) and the other needed to access the money to pay for the care. No one could access the money / or sell their house until the sick person died.

You are quite right that my NC with another family member should not stop them sorting out their financial affairs - it was validating to hear you say this. I will not be addressing the issues with my niece. I have already once held out the olive branch and what came back at me was like a dagger to my heart. I will never be able to trust her again, and won't be forced or cajoled into any kind of relationship with her. This is a firm boundary!

No, they are not capable of talking things through it seems. They talk about keeping things in boxes and not talking about them - they know when the other is sad and try too cheer them up, but they don't ask what's wrong as that makes them even more sad -how dysfunctional is that? It is the same as sweeping it under the carpet isn't it?

Anyway, you can "lead a horse to water" as they say, and I have tried my best, but now it is time to leave this subject alone. I have let it be known what I think and now it is up to them.

Since I wrote the my OP, there has been a further development with my sister, who I mentioned in my OP was long term NC and has now broken that and seen my parents, I am now trying to get my head around this, but will post on the sibling thread.

[JR]

Hi Peace Lily,

Do they not have each other's names on their respective bank accounts? Are they not named as each others beneficiary on bank accounts and pensions? Where I live, that is the norm.   

What I see in your OP is that they are trying to "punish" you for trying to heal. This is common in these messed up families. I've seen it my entire life. My grandmothers were so good at it - oh someone in the family wants boundaries, wants something healthy for herself, wants to take a break from the drama - time to punish her!!

It is absolute nonsense that they do not have a will because of your decision to be NC with someone in the family system. Give me a break. They are adults and people their age make wills. Mature people their age, make wills and deal with life instead of avoiding such tasks.

Narcissists do not do well with thinking about their own mortality. They are extremely immature people when it comes down to it, and so dealing with end of life decision making and estate planning, all of that scares them so they act like your parents are acting. Others here can share about how well their aging narc relatives dealt with issues to do with estate planning and mortality.

The 'hornets nest' is just like you said, it is the obligation and guilt aspect of FOG, where the decent people in the family (you) get sucked in through obligation and guilt, and probably some confusion about why they are acting like this when other people their age are able to do these things.

It doesn't sound like they know how to manage their own decisions without being dramatic and confusing. A common problem with narc parents. It sounds like they were very comfortable, yet again, blaming someone else for their lack of maturity. They are blaming you for not being able to make a will? So what if they have to pay people to do things like manage the estate and clean out the house when they are gone. That is the 'natural consequence' of them having narcissism. None of this has anything to do with you.

One family member going NC with someone does not have anything to do with their inability to figure out their own estate planning. Your NC with your niece does not mean their hands are tied - and if they talked to a lawyer, they would learn that lots of families have estrangements in them. And I would guess that many of those families still make wills. They are acting like they are the victims here.

Your mom wrote you out of her will and you are still willing to visit her in her old age. I would say that you might want to talk with a therapist about what you've been put through and how strong you are for taking all of this on.

The fact that neither of them has a will, means they are leaving each other in the lurch doesn't it? Perhaps when you raised the topic of the lack of a will, you forced them into a corner-because now you've revealed that they are not even capable of taking care of each other properly. The decisions will be left to one of them - are they not capable of talking about how they want to relieve the other of the stress of getting access to bank accounts when the other one is gone? I mean wow, right? One (or both of them) is preventing this necessary estate planning conversation - and it is possible that they know that if they spoke to a lawyer, the lawyer might be shocked that they have not been able to do this for each other.

Trees

so true all of this

[NarcKiddo]

However, whilst they are still alive a financial Power of Attorney would be necessary if one were no longer unable to manage their own finances (if they had dementia and had to go into a care home for example) and the other needed to access the money to pay for the care. No one could access the money / or sell their house until the sick person died.

Assuming you are UK based there is a mechanism to apply for deputyship via the Court of Protection if someone becomes mentally incapable of managing their own affairs. It takes a while which is why people are well advised to have a power of attorney in place in advance. Even that takes ages! But all is not necessarily lost in the absence of a power of attorney. A power of attorney is far more useful because it can be used if the person has mental capacity but may be struggling temporarily - e.g. may be ill in hospital. But if you were not aware of the deputyship option then maybe it will give you some comfort to know that if one of them becomes incapable the other will still have options. Not particularly easy or convenient ones - but that's their problem.

[Peace Lily]

Hi NarcKiddo, and thanks for your reply. Yes that is helpful, although hoping I won't need to go down that route!