Hoover on High

NBRiverGuy · October 30, 2024, 11:08:39 AM

I think uPDw knows that I have hit my breaking point. Last weekend, she started asking me randomly if she seemed angry. I just said calmly and honestly that "it seems like normal life things that everyone has to deal with do tend to upset you more than most and that you sometimes yell at people and scold them for basic misunderstandings. Is that what you are asking me?" She said, "But, more than normal lately?"
I said, "Why are you asking me this?" She said that she has started some new medicine for ADHD (Strattera) and she feels like it is making her more hostile towards others. I just said that if she feels like it is having a negative side effect that she should speak with her doctor about discontinuing it. She said that she thinks that is the reason that she has been so quick to anger lately and that she will talk to her doctor and get it under control.
It's not the medicine. This has been going on for years. I think she saw that aggressive behavior was a potential side effect and she wanted to present it to me as something that could be fixed. I just need to give her some time. In other words: "It's not me. It's the pills." Is this classic hoovering? Has anyone dealt with something similar?

MaxedOut · October 30, 2024, 05:21:14 PM

I don't think of it as hoovering. Medication definitely has been pointed to by my SO as a factor in anger/behavior. She takes a number of meds that definitely can do stuff, especially coming off of them.

But, as you say, it has been going on for years and the relationship minus the time period with Strattera was not one you were OK with. And I expect she will be going on and off meds for the rest of her life. It can be an excuse, it can be reality-it probably is most often a bit of both given the extreme reactivity and sensitivity of PDs.

For me the struggle is that the most abusive times tend to be during med changes, when self-harm/suicide concerns and psychosis are very real. And - she usually is still able to appear calm and control behaviors if, say, emergency services are called (so there is choice in there). When that passes I am mostly just tired and relieved-not, say, wanting to embark on a totally destabilizing process.

I think you handled that well, NB.

square · October 30, 2024, 09:21:38 PM

Yeah, I think you're right, she senses something is up and is trying to reel you back in with the idea that a med change will fix things (and of course without blaming her).

Imho meds can have an effect on things but the behavior is still bounded by what is acceptable to the person. I think full on psychosis can lead to behavior the person would not otherwise do. But meds that make people grumpier or whatever just increase the behavior that they find acceptable to do when grumpy. It doesn't create name calling and manipulation and so on. Just increases whatever stress behavior they already choose under those circumstances.

Your responses were perfect.

NBRiverGuy · October 31, 2024, 08:58:19 AM

Thank you both. Last night was a doozy. Went to my therapist after work. It was only my second session. On Square's advice, I did not mention anything about personality disorders on my first visit. I just explained what was happening in my home life. About five minutes into yesterday's session, the therapist handed me a stack of papers and asked, "How much do you know about borderline personality and bi-polar disorder?" I sort of chuckled and said, "Way more than I want to." To paraphrase the rest of the session, she basically said, "You are unhappy because you are living with an unpredictable, unstable, and possibly unsafe person. You can come to therapy sessions for the rest of your life, but as long as you continue to live in that environment, you will not be happy." So we discussed some exit plans that could possibly mitigate the chaos that will no doubt come with the separation. And it is going to take some planning.

I left the session feeling somewhat better about my situation, or at least less alone in it. I was just thinking, "If I can just try to keep from setting her off until I get my ducks in a row..." but that was not to be. About 10 minutes after I walked in the door, she laid into me about everything from "your mom doesn't like me" to "I asked you to move a piece of furniture two months ago and it still hasn't been moved. You always break your promises. After 24 years, I thought you would learn how to keep a promise, but I guess I was wrong." Then back to "your mom doesn't like me and she is going to be in MY house. I'm going to have to be in MY house watching the enemy eating MY food and drinking MY drinks. That's what she is. The enemy." My parents are coming in town this weekend w/ my sis, her husband and their daughter. Enemy is a new one. Haven't heard her use that one before.

I asked my therapist yesterday if it was a mistake to call my mom and tell her what was going on. (i.e. I'm at a point where I don't think I can save my marriage anymore, but due to uPDw's condition and some financial issues, it's going to take a little while.) She said that she thought that was a fine idea and that I needed some people that I could trust to know what is going on and to help me. I was going to wait until after this weekend to talk to my mom, but I think I need to let her know what is going on before they come in town. My folks are staying in a hotel and I might just tell her to limit contact with my wife. Any thoughts?

square · October 31, 2024, 08:41:06 PM

Really glad your therapist gets it. And that she also gets the kind of planning you need to support your exit.

A balance of quiet periods and blowups might be useful to give you bandwidth to act and also motivation.

Are your parents capable of medium chill? Can they act "nice" in a passive way, and parry weird gambits with vaguely confused nice sounding things that are plausibly denied? Tell your folks to practice their medium chill, limit contact, and be ready to exit quietly if the situation goes sideways. And it's better for you if they don't push back or get into it with her. "I'm not sure what you mean?" "Goodness, I'm sure this is all a misunderstanding."

NBRiverGuy · November 01, 2024, 08:20:53 AM

Quote from: square on October 31, 2024, 08:41:06 PMReally glad your therapist gets it. And that she also gets the kind of planning you need to support your exit.

A balance of quiet periods and blowups might be useful to give you bandwidth to act and also motivation.

Are your parents capable of medium chill? Can they act "nice" in a passive way, and parry weird gambits with vaguely confused nice sounding things that are plausibly denied? Tell your folks to practice their medium chill, limit contact, and be ready to exit quietly if the situation goes sideways. And it's better for you if they don't push back or get into it with her. "I'm not sure what you mean?" "Goodness, I'm sure this is all a misunderstanding."

I called my mom last night and laid everything on the table. She said that she has known for a long time that W has a personality disorder. She didn't bring it up to me before because she figured that I knew and that she was just trying to be supportive in any way that she could.
My mom has mastered the medium chill on her own over the past couple of years. Last night, she told me some things that w said to her over the past holiday season that were just awful. Mom said, "I know she is trying to get a rise out of me, so when she does that, I try to politely excuse myself from the room." I apologized to my mom for putting her in the middle of all of this for so many years. She was supportive as always and said, "I'm just glad your finally focusing on your own happiness. We'll be there any way you need us."
I told her my stomach has been tied up in knots over their visit this weekend because w's behavior has been unusually erratic lately and I don't know what to expect. Mom said not to worry. We'll limit time at your house and find things to keep ourselves busy. If w starts going berserk, they'll just say they have to get going and hang out at the hotel. I think my family has just instinctively learned how to deal with her over the years. I'm the one who has been enabling all this time because I've been trying to protect everyone. It's a relief that everything is out in the open, but it feels weird and uneasy at the same time.

MaxedOut · November 01, 2024, 01:46:11 PM

What a great update, NB. Though there hasn't been direct conflict, I have a feeling of a similar convo in my future.

NBRiverGuy · November 01, 2024, 02:13:37 PM

Quote from: MaxedOut on November 01, 2024, 01:46:11 PMWhat a great update, NB. Though there hasn't been direct conflict, I have a feeling of a similar convo in my future.

It was a really tough, but necessary conversation to initiate. I hope you are able to find the support that you need and deserve.

Rebel13 · November 01, 2024, 02:50:38 PM

Quote from: NBRiverGuy on November 01, 2024, 08:20:53 AMMom said, "I know she is trying to get a rise out of me, so when she does that, I try to politely excuse myself from the room." I apologized to my mom for putting her in the middle of all of this for so many years. She was supportive as always and said, "I'm just glad your finally focusing on your own happiness. We'll be there any way you need us." ...
Mom said not to worry. We'll limit time at your house and find things to keep ourselves busy. If w starts going berserk, they'll just say they have to get going and hang out at the hotel.

I'm so glad to hear this! It's wonderful you have this kind and loving support from your mom. Good luck with the visit, I'm wishing you calm times and minimal drama!

NBRiverGuy · November 04, 2024, 04:15:20 PM

Quite predictably, the weekend did not go well. W and I met parents, sister, brother in law, and 4-year-old niece at a restaurant on Friday night and then planned to go back to my house to visit for a while. I thought dinner went fine until w and I got in the car. She was furious because everyone at the table ignored her the whole time. They didn't. "Are they going to ignore me at MY house all weekend? Because I'm not putting up with them disrespecting me in MY house!" I said, "Well if you initiate a conversation, I'm sure they won't ignore you." WRONG thing to say. She starting screaming at the top of her lungs, "So I have to initiate all conversations?! It's all on me 100 percent!? God forbid someone asks ME a question!" She was screaming so loud that I did not feel safe driving, so I pulled over on a side street about 5 miles from home. As soon as I stopped she jumped out of the car. I immediately texted my brother in law, "Do not come to my house. Not safe." He understood and said that he would get a hotel. I followed w trying to get her back in the car but she darted across the service road and under the underpass. I called her stepmom and said I needed help. I pulled into a gas station and caught up with w under the bridge. I got her on the phone with her stepmom who talked her into getting in the car. Got her to the house and stepmom stayed on the phone with her and finally somewhat calmed her down. She talked her into taking a sleeping pill.
Next morning I met up with my mom and sister and told them what had happened. Then, I called w's dad and stepmom. They said that they knew her mental health had been in rapid decline for the past couple of years and that it had never been great. I told them I couldn't do it anymore, but I know she cannot take care of herself. They agreed and said that they would support me in whatever decision I had to make for myself and would take care of w in any way they can. I explained to them about PDs and said that it would be a terrible and possibly dangerous idea for them to tell her that I was in contact with them. They said they would not say anything.
I went back to my house to check on w and she started all over again saying that I was a complete failure and a disappointment as a husband, and that I take care of everyone else but I don't care about her. I went back over to my parents' hotel.
When I got home, I was her favorite person in the world and she would never say anything to hurt me, but she just needed to "get my attention." The next morning she acted like nothing had happened. I went to meet my family for lunch. When I got home, she broke down crying and said she thinks she has some serious mental health problems. (Thank you Captain Obvious). She doesn't think her current therapy sessions are working and she needs to see a psychiatrist but it's too expensive. I said don't worry about the money. We'll figure it out and that I will help in any way that I can. I know this is more hoovering, but if I can get her in with a qualified professional at least I'll have someone to call next time she goes off the rails. Geez Louise am I ready to be done with this.

square · November 04, 2024, 06:23:19 PM

What a stressful weekend. Damn.

You did very well.

StartingHealing · November 21, 2024, 02:00:15 PM

NBRiverGuy,

As I read your posts, I was having flashes of the situations I went through with the former spouse. Very good that you found a T that 'gets' it. That is a major positive along with you being able to be in contact with various families. You are so far ahead of where I was at the time. You are doing good!

Indeed, the push/pull thing. Ugh. Her being all nice is an attempt to hoover you, to put the blinders back on you, glad that you are aware of it.

I do wish you all the best.